Did Scott Joplin intend to write "serious" music?

[cuberdrift]

Neither Scott Joplin nor Irving Berlin sat in an ivory tower composing music as a way to express their inner pain. They both had the same motivation: to write the best quality music they could so that it would appeal to the widest audience and earn them the most money....(v)ery few rags lend themselves to the melancholy and introspective state of mind. - Frederick Hodges

I've always been under the impression that Scott Joplin always intended to "elevate" the "lowbrow" folk music of his native region to some kind of art music. While he didn't seem to be fully successful in this, I like to imagine that he wrote his music with this end in mind - to convey serious expression. His surviving opera, and lost other opera, lost piano concerto, and lost symphony, suggest this, as they are genres that seem far-fetched from the common African-American folk music background.

I want to touch on this because Joplin has always been one of my favorite composers. This is because I feel his piano music, particularly as played by Rifkin or Loeb, has a kind of rare quality - maybe I haven't listened to enough music, but of all the composers I've heard, it's hard for me to think of another composer who has this same trait, except Mozart, who I hauntingly feel shares this kind of "soul" with his music - that is, an elegant and noble melody which is joyous, but, if you listen carefully, also hides some sadness. This is different from the melodies of Chopin, which I feel are much more obviously melancholic, even in a Major key.

Therefore, it would be most disillusioning to realize that Joplin never intended to strive for this kind of expression. It would be like being transported to the past and hear Mozart play with a harsh, careless tone. At least, this is how that article by Frederick Hodges seems to explain it.

Hodges seems to argue that Joplin and most of ragtime piano music was mainly intended to generate money and not to convey serious expressions. It says that Rifkin did a good job of "classicalizing" Joplin, but that this was not necessarily needed. While it also argues that ragtime isn't actually "honky-tonk ice cream-truck/pizza parlor" music in nature, it stresses that, generally, Joplin and ragtime music were never really intended to be profound.

Given this interesting historical background, the question remains: Is ragtime classical music?

The answer, of course, examined through an accurate historical perspective is “no.” Ragtime is not classical music. Ragtime is popular music. Classical music and popular music serve entirely different purposes and have diametrically opposed motivations behind their creation. In general, a classical composer uses music to express his deepest emotions and experiences. Classical music arouses the intellect and the passions. It addresses the deepest questions of human existence. Classical music is sophisticated and intelligent. The impression is that it cannot be appreciated by the uninititated and the uneducated. Of course, classical composers were traditionally supported and constrained by the patronage system. Poverty may have obliged Mozart to accept commissions for works he might not otherwise of written, but his patrons probably never asked him to "dumb it down." The point of sale was a single event — the check from the patron rather than multiple points from a sheet-music buying public.

I just can't take it to know that Joplin was a "pop" composer. Have I been fooled by the inaccurate ideologies of Rifkin or Loeb?

[ted]

My opinion is that Hodges is mistaken. Moreover, I would bet that the current body of composers of serious ragtime, and ragtime derived music, people like David Thomas Roberts, Brian Keenan, Frank French, Reginald Robinson, Hal Isbitz, Scott Kirby and many others, would take marked exception to the notion that Joplin was solely driven by money. Everyone has to earn a living, yes, but the essential nature of that fact has nothing to do with underlying musical idealism, something Joplin possessed very strongly. If money had been his sole motivation, why would he have desperately driven himself to finish his opera when he must have known he faced certain death in a few months ? Similarly, we read that James Scott kept on labouring away, writing unfashionable ragtime of ever increasing complexity long after his job and his health had gone. It doesn't make sense. Hodges is a very fine pianist, and it surprises me he made such a silly assertion.

Arguing about what is classical and what isn't gets us nowhere, as I have found in the past on this forum, so I shan't comment on that.

[mjames]

...Why is so much of his music lost? Would have loved to listen to his ragtime piano concerto.

[ted]

...Why is so much of his music lost? Would have loved to listen to his ragtime piano concerto.

Exactly, and why does a high quality DVD of Treemonisha simply not exist ? The Houston Grand Opera version was magnificent, and ran for ages, but just try to find a DVD of it on the internet. I obtained a copy, obviously taken by an audience camera, from some less than prominent site I cannot remember. You can get the recording of it but not the film. Other motley shows occur and their DVDs are promoted around the world, yet a landmark event event such as Treemonisha vanishes. Inexplicable.

[c_minor]

I guess the writer classified ragtime as popular music because of its generally happy feel. Around a year ago, I messed around with some Joplin rags and found that they can be quite repetitive, even if I'm already trying a new piece. That said, I still enjoy ragtime in moderation.

Also, I agree with ted here:

Arguing about what is classical and what isn't gets us nowhere, as I have found in the past on this forum, so I shan't comment on that.

[indianajo]

Among North American composers, I much prefer Scott Joplin to composers more respected by the symphony societies, say Walter Piston whose symphonies got so much airplay last week on WFMT "Exploring Music", and that borrower from the park bandstand, Charles Ives. I hate it when WFMT drags Ives out every 4th of July.  Play SJ all day, I say, instead of that. He wrote 8 hours or more of performable music, with original melodies.    
SJ wrote music for piano, without reference to the sonata or symphony form, so I class him more with home/salon music composers like Chopin. Academics prefer formal structure and development to actual exhibition of melodies you wake up reprising.   
I may say I am no admirer of Joshua Rifkin.  He did popularize SJ music at a time when it was forgotten, but his performances are limp and effete to me.  Better Willy "the Lion" Smith on those old moviola tracks that surfaced in the 00's on PBS Jazz series.  Or, unrecorded yet, me.  Marvin Hamlisch arrangements from the Sting movie era also violate my sense of rhythm.  MH obviously never lived next to a track where powerful steam engines assaulted the air, driving all boys to an energetic frenzy.  MH Entertainer is more a carriage ride in Central Park.  

[cuberdrift]

SJ wrote music for piano, without reference to the sonata or symphony form, so I class him more with home/salon music composers like Chopin. Academics prefer formal structure and development to actual exhibition of melodies you wake up reprising.

Chopin did write "salon" music but today these compositions are obviously pretty much revered as some of the best music ever written in Europe.

Let's remember that he wrote these rags because it was what made him popular. But I don't think we wished to have stuck there. He intended to write concerti, symphonies, and operas - he wanted to be like a white classical composer.

I agree that Joplin generally aimed to write music for the amateur, but what I see is that this target market of his was because he was more or less constrained within this framework. While they are "salon/home" pieces they seem to me quite complex and inventive ones. I think Joplin was really aiming to expand his native music to something that could be at par with the Western masters.

I may say I am no admirer of Joshua Rifkin.  He did popularize SJ music at a time when it was forgotten, but his performances are limp and effete to me.  Better Willy "the Lion" Smith on those old moviola tracks that surfaced in the 00's on PBS Jazz series.  Or, unrecorded yet, me.  Marvin Hamlisch arrangements from the Sting movie era also violate my sense of rhythm.  MH obviously never lived next to a track where powerful steam engines assaulted the air, driving all boys to an energetic frenzy.  MH Entertainer is more a carriage ride in Central Park.

Yes sometimes Rifkin plays too slow, maybe, though I can still say his work is admirable. In my opinion playing ragtime too slowly kind of dampens its drive, but that's just my taste.

But I don't think that all Joplin has to be what you seem to be describing - i.e., quick, lively, vivacious, dancelike. Have you clicked the video I posted? I just can't imagine "Rose Leaf Rag" being played fast. It isn't an "industrial" piece, even if it was made during the industrial age. Some Joplin, of course, fits this category, such as his Maple Leaf Rag, Cascades (which I love), and Two-Step note. I don't think Joplin wanted to continue his kind of music being associated as "working class", I think he wanted to be a bit "uppercrust", so to speak.

I actually kind of prefer ragtime to stride piano because of this. I usually look for a kind of "refinement" in music. The more laid-back and elegant Joplin, then, often takes me more than JR Morton or Willie "The Lion" Smith. Art Tatum might be an exception - even at blistering speeds, everything is done on a calm note. For me, even Confrey, the pioneer of the Novelty Piano genre which was supposed to be more complex than ragtime, doesn't really compare to the unique beauty and majesty of SJ. They just aren't as poetic.

[ted]

He was also special in that he expressed a much wider range of emotion within a syncopated idiom. Magnetic Rag is deeply tragic, despite the doomed gaiety of its third strain, and Euphonic Sounds hints at fundamentally new directions the rag form could take. Nobody has attempted to develop the rag in this classical direction of Euphonic Sounds. All, without an exception I could name, have taken it in a romantic direction. David Thomas Roberts has wonderful diversity of sentiment in his ragtime compositions, magical lyricism, but it is wholly romantic, not in the least concerned with new formal development. Euphonic Sounds is like a gate still waiting to be opened.

Joplin's unique quality is probably thrown into relief through comparison to the music of James Scott. I love Scott's rags for their ebullience and vigour, they are hugely enjoyable to play, but their emotional and formal focus is narrow. Treemonisha is a powerfully moving creation, but only partly because of ragtime. In fact, only three short sections of it, the Ring Play, Aunt Dinah and the Real Slow Drag are in ragtime. Joplin possessed an altogether wider musical perception than any other creator of syncopated forms, certainly in his own time and possibly now.

Cuberdrift, have you heard Brian Keenan's music ? I only just made his acquaintance this year, probably because he is quiet and does not force himself into prominence, but his music is compelling in a refreshingly different way from the louder, faster, sillier fashions in contemporary ragtime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqfdDL1X-g0

[cuberdrift]

Euphonic Sounds is like a gate still waiting to be opened.

I agree.

Back in the time when I had thought that Joplin's music was quite repetitive, I was in for a surprise after hearing that piece.

Cuberdrift, have you heard Brian Keenan's music ? I only just made his acquaintance this year, probably because he is quiet and does not force himself into prominence, but his music is compelling in a refreshingly different way from the louder, faster, sillier fashions in contemporary ragtime.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqfdDL1X-g0

Well, I'd say he is a follower of the "Joplinian" tradition of the classy-rag, kind of like how some folks stuck to the old school lyricism/charm of Mozart rather than embracing the new Beethovenian angst. Hummel comes to mind.

I actually wasn't very aware that there was such a thing as "contemporary ragtime"...I thought it just evolved into stride, and that was it.

Of course, there's always people like Tom Brier, Adam Swanson, or Stephanie Trick who keep playing these "rag-time" pieces on "old" pianos, ha-ha. (How is Tom Brier of Keeper1st? I heard he's been recovering from a terrible accident. Hope all is well.)

[visitor]

...he is a follower of the "Joplinian" tradition of the classy-rag...

I actually wasn't very aware that there was such a thing as "contemporary ragtime"...I thought it just evolved into stride, and that was it.
...

um no.
also, in the context of 'classical' and rag, and 'contemporary' , it would be better to look at William Albright (1944-1998).
his 3 movement piano sonata simply titled 'Grand Sonata in Rag' composed in 1968 is a 16+ minute beast of a work with quirky movement subtitles. About the only piece I can really think of that fits the context of your discussion and questions about art rag music.

mov I
Scott Joplin's Victory

mov ii Ragtime Turtledove

mov iii
behemoth two step

peace.
-the V.

bonus since you touched on Mozart Hummel and Beethoven, if you want something like a 'fantasy', then the Nightmare Fantasy Rag would be good to explore

his music is super cool i am pretty sure i have some hard copy scores of his in one of my dusty old misc archive bins around here somewhere....

[themeandvariation]

I remember reading a quote from Joplin that he Indeed did consider that he Was writing 'serious' music. (i would concur). Although is is true he enjoyed a million seller w/ 'the entertainer' - (which doesn't necessarily  mean that it wasnt  as serious piece)  used that money to start a school of music in New York.. In his forward to his published collection of rags, he goes to great lengths to insure that they are approached properly - especially w/ regard to the syncopation, which evidently, (for some reason) many players reading the score,  didn't quite 'get' - and appropriated a dumbing down of the syncopation.)
He also had concerns that many of the rags would be played too fast ('poppy') unless he was adamant in his admonishment w/ regard to speed - (which, besides the obvious, {how he Wanted it}  would also more highlight the compositional aspect, more.