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Author Topic: What is the form of this choral Renaissance piece? (00:00 - 01:13)  (Read 136 times)
makivka
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« on: October 26, 2017, 05:42:31 PM »

I apologize that I am asking a non-piano question. I do a question about what form this piece is:

Audio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkLJPcfttfY
Take a listen to only the first 01:13 of the piece.

Is it AB form only?
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keypeg
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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2017, 10:09:29 PM »

If you are studying music, then simply giving you answers would not be helpful to you.  Before listening to the excerpt I was going to ask what you understand about ABA form, and who impressions you already have when listening.  (Once a teacher, always a teacher. Wink )  But that has shifted after listening, seeing the composer, time period etc.  I looked at your other posts and see that you are in a "beginner" music class.  I'm surmising a few things, because there is a new phenomenon, where classes are being set up for the new "adult market" and not thought through.  I've seen things taught that required prerequisite knowledge, but those prerequisites were not taught.  It may be that this is going on here.

The excerpt is from the Renaissance period.  If you look up the composer you get this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom%C3%A1s_Luis_de_Victoria.  He was part of the "counter reformation" along with Palestrina.  I studied music history at a basic first level so I have an idea of what that is about, and did recognize it from the sound.  But did you get taught about Renaissance music, and music of different periods.  One thing that comes across very clearly is that it is polyphonic (that does not tell us about overall structure like ABA form).  Are you aware of polyphony?

For those who know a lot more than I do - does music of that period even have structure like ABA?

I did a quick search on Renaissance music and got the typical Wikki article.  Nothing about "musical form" - the things I already know, such as the increasing use of thirds, and such.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_music
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iansinclair
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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2017, 10:47:06 PM »

That is one of the real masterpieces of the High Renaissance.  Glorious music.

But as to form -- it is canonic; that is, the several parts imitate each other in sequence.  Most assuredly application of such Romantic musical forms -- such as "AB" or "ABA" to such music is simply nonsense.
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Ian
keypeg
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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2017, 05:50:26 AM »

Most assuredly application of such Romantic musical forms -- such as "AB" or "ABA" to such music is simply nonsense.
So I'm right that these forms had not been invented yet?
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quantum
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2017, 11:15:23 AM »

An important factor to note here is the text: the ordinary of the mass.  It has a very specific purpose and many pieces of music have been written, and are still being written to this day with this very same text.  The text has a large bearing on what the structure of the music turns out to be. 

If one looks at the text of the Kyrie, you may find an ABA form, however the music may not exactly mirror the text in form.  So you could have two different layers to look at. 


Most assuredly application of such Romantic musical forms -- such as "AB" or "ABA" to such music is simply nonsense.

Will have to disagree with this in part.  In one sense, it does not follow ternary form as we would come to hear in music of later periods.  However, what we need to do is differentiate the aspect of analytical notation from the function of musical form.  One can most certainly describe polyphonic music using notation such as AaBbCc...A'B'C' etc, there is nothing romantic about it, it is an analytical tool.  To exclusively limit analytical tools to specific musical periods is silliness, not to mention it does nothing for furthering inquiry - and thus deeper understanding - of the material. 


makivka,
From your previous posts you seem to be taking a course.  We can help you out, but don't expect all the answers to your assignments to be posted here in full.  Working through your assignments is part of learning. 

I've sung parts of this in choir, and it is wonderful music.
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keypeg
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2017, 03:19:54 PM »

About assignments.

A couple of years ago an adult student who was relatively new to music signed up for a course at a college or conservatory which was slated to be for adult students, and with no prerequisite background.  The question asked here had to do with a counterpoint exercise.  The students had not been taught the prerequisite basic fundamental knowledge of intervals.  Obviously that should be solid.

I also took part in a Coursera course for adults, again no prerequisites needed, covering music history of Western music all in the space of something like 6 weeks.  It was condensed from a "music appreciation" course (for non-music majors) that I think ran for 1 or 2 semesters.  Some of that course could be found on-line and it was much more thorough.  For me the course was a review.  I had studied up to the "Classical" period.  I also had a pretty solid understanding of music theory.  But this course did not require prerequisite knowledge, and tried to rush through the essentials of theory in perhaps one week.  You need some theory to understand some of the major trends in the development of Western music.  In the forum we were trying to help students who were struggling, because they did not have that background.

There seems to be a trend of courses for the "adult market", not well thought through, with the student getting a muddle of stuff which no longer makes sense.  I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case here.  I may be wrong.
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makivka
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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2017, 03:47:52 AM »

keypeg - you are good! I agree that this forum should be only to consult and lead students into the right direction.

quantum - thank you for helping me out! And everybody else as well! Of course, I agree with you. I only hoped to be lead in the right direction.

keypeg - about your last comment, that is definitely the case with many people in my class. I am slightly more knowledgeable about music than most of my classmates (I think), but I can't hear a lot of things, such as how many voices there are, where themes reappear or end for sure, etc.
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quantum
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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2017, 07:59:21 AM »

makivka,

If you are unfamiliar with the sung mass, you may wish to listen to other examples of it to gain more perspective of common features one may come across.  Listen to masses written by Victoria, as well other composers.  After a few samples you may begin to see some common elements.

It is like being shown an apple for a first time, then to write about apples.  If it is the first time you have encountered one, how would you know about the different species of apples that exist, and that they come in many different colors.  
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Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach
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