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The only recording in the world of Schumann's "Traumerei" at the correct tempo (Read 6929 times)

Offline louispodesta

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The only recording  in the world of Schumann's "Traumerei" at the correct,  AUTHENTIC  "Tempo = 100",  indicated  by Schumann instead of the usual "tempo for funeral".

Can we imagine that instead of light-hearted,  joyful  "Jingle Bells"  everyone in the world  played  this song as a  gloomy music for the funeral  at the speed of a snail?  This is  exactly what is happening today with  lovely Schumann's  "Traumerei".  It is only performed by everyone at a pace of a funeral march,  it is often included  in the funeral ceremony,  and it even sounds round-the-clock over the memorial of one-and- a- half million soldiers that died in the Second World War's "Stalingrad Battle".  But this is not something that is written for us by the composer at all.

Schumann's wife  Clara Wieck  was a wonderful pianist, judging from the feedback from many of her great contemporaries. Often she joked over Schumann that he seemed and behaved like a child. Those who have read the literary works of Schumann,  will most likely agree with her.  And there's nothing wrong with: many good people remain to be children until their last days - it had been noticed for long.


In response to these jokes of his famous wife,  Schumann wrote "30 easy and amusing (droll)  pieces for piano", from which  he selected later 13 pieces and titled this compilation "Children's scenes" ("The Kinderszenen").   The "Traumerei" ("Daydreaming") - is just one of these "Easy and Amusing Pieces."  Schumann probably meant precisely this feature of his own character.  He described these songs as "more CHEERFUL, gentler, more melodic" than his earlier works.

To avoid misrepresentation of  "Traumerei",  Schumann specially indicated  the EXACT TEMPO of performing: "Quarter note = 100 bpm ".  Unfortunately, the nowadays'  musicians prefer to copy the so-called "interpretation" of any celebrity, rather than to look at the score.  Recently  I  checked  all the  recordings of  "Traumerei" on  You-Tube.  No pianist has played this song at Schumann's  authentic tempo of "100".  Usually the tempo was  only "50" or lower.   At the same time, the most interesting rhythmic structure of this song is usually ignored  completely and replaced by the pianist's own improvisation in the style "ad libitum" = "as you like".

 And it is not random blunder of several musicians, but a  modern "philosophy of performing".    The most vivid presentation of  this "philosophy" I heard from  Mr. Richard Cock.  He told me: "What is your Bach in comparison with me? Bach today - it is only a handful of dust in his grave.  And I am an acting Principal Conductor  of the Radio and TV of South Africa.  Your Bach can not correct me, but I can correct Bach in any way I want."

With  this my recording of "Traumerei" in the Schumann's authentic tempo I invite all the musicians to perform this song  as it was written by the composer.



 I hope that among modern virtuoso pianists there should still be those who are able to record this most famous Schumann's song  at the genuine tempo and with the authentic rhythm instead of the usual rhythmic disorder in every measure of this great music.

I  hope sincerely   that my "record at authentic tempo" will not be  the only one in the world for a long time.

 I would be grateful for the links to these new recordings.

Vladimir Dounin
As stated before, as a Classical Pianist/Philosopher, I utilize the discipline of Scientific Empiricism.  That means:  I cite sources related to your argument.

Accordingly, I cite (vis a vis) a link to three separate "Analog" recordings.  These were all:  1) Students of Clara Schumann, and 2) None of them play at your supposed accurate tempo:

please pause at Minute 5:58

please pause at Minute 5:53

please pause at Minute 5.47

Either they are all wrong (all Clara's Students, one of which (F.D.) was her teaching assistant for 20 years!), or you, Sir, are mistaken!

Offline mjames

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As stated before, as a Classical Pianist/Philosopher, I utilize the discipline of Scientific Empiricism.  That means:  I cite sources related to your argument.

HOW CAN ANYONE SAY THIS UNSARCASTICALLY?!

There's no way. He's definitely a troll. He's fecking with us, you can't convince me otherwise.
Composing/improvising

Chopin's 4th ballade and 3rd sonata.
Scriabin Op. 42 no. 1, 2, and 3.
Bach Partita No.4

Offline visitor

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Don't mind me just dropping these off



I'll be on me way now

Offline mjames

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Don't mind me just dropping these off



I'll be on me way now

careful kpegs ain't a fan of colors
Composing/improvising

Chopin's 4th ballade and 3rd sonata.
Scriabin Op. 42 no. 1, 2, and 3.
Bach Partita No.4

Offline 88kcookiezi

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Why don't yall just play it how you like it?  Lets be real, what ever piece you're playing, if it doesn't sound right to yourself, it's not going to sound right for the audience. 
There's no wrong interpretation.  Its just that some are better than others.

Offline chopinlover01

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Man this was a funny thread
Jazz Ambassador 8)

Offline xdjuicebox

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I am confuse
I am trying to become Franz Liszt. Trying. And failing.

Offline furiouzpianist

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I kind of like it   ;D ;D ;D

Offline visitor

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Offline outin

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Offline vladimirdounin

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Please, take a part in my TEST on this topic. Thanks

Offline perfect_pitch

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No.



Please stop necro'ing your threads. Nobody cared back in November, their interest sure as hell hasn't increased since then.

Offline mjames

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Don't listen to him, he's just jealous of your talent. Please keep posting.
Composing/improvising

Chopin's 4th ballade and 3rd sonata.
Scriabin Op. 42 no. 1, 2, and 3.
Bach Partita No.4

Offline perfect_pitch

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Don't listen to him, he's just jealous of your talent. Please keep posting.

Oh goodie - the trolls are uniting... just what we f@#$ing need.

Offline mjames

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Oh goodie - the trolls are uniting... just what we f@#$ing need.

We set up top secret meetings to think of ways to frustrate you even more. Operation E67 will commence in a few days; expect a long informative post from dear Vladimeme in a few days.
Composing/improvising

Chopin's 4th ballade and 3rd sonata.
Scriabin Op. 42 no. 1, 2, and 3.
Bach Partita No.4

Offline vladimirdounin

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I am trying to find and understand the reason of the pianists to play Traumerei upside down.

When I pointed the wrong tempo in my November post, many members wrote here that the composer's  tempo is absolutely not important, everyone can just ignore it.

When I pointed the wrong rhythm, many members wrote that the composer's rhythm is not important as well, everyone can modify it in any way.

In my last post on Traumerei I pointed, that no one plays elementary correct Time Signature in this piece.

I received comment  from "perfect_pitch" that no one is interested to discuss this matter.

Why not to discuss the most important things in our profession?

Are  Yuja Wang's dresses more interesting and important for you and other members of pianists' forum?

Offline perfect_pitch

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Why not to discuss the most important things in our profession?

Are  Yuja Wang's dresses more interesting and important for you and other members of pianists' forum?

This entire thread is full of reasons why no one wants to participate it. If you've forgotten why people aren't interested - read the thread.

And no... I couldn't care what Yuja Wang wears... but given your arrogance regarding this threads subject - I'm beginning to.

Offline themeandvariation

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I tried your experiment - and you didn't even acknowledge it.  See the consensus for yourself!  ;D

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=64450.0
4'33"

Offline perfect_pitch

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I forgot about that thread... had to listen to your recording again - made me chuckle.

Did you ever get your $75???    ;D

Offline vladimirdounin

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I tried your experiment - and you didn't even acknowledge it.  See the consensus for yourself!  ;D

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=64450.0


I am serious about our profession and discussing its problems. i do not understand:
why do you need your clowning and mockery of the great music of Schumann here?

Offline perfect_pitch

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We're not the ones clowning and mocking the music of Schumann here - you are with your ridiculous tempo.

The collective mass of Piano street has made their opinion clear in this thread, but you simply refuse to listen to people.

Don't try and paint us as being the fools...

Offline vladimirdounin

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We're not the ones clowning and mocking the music of Schumann here - you are with your ridiculous tempo.

The collective mass of Piano street has made their opinion clear in this thread, but you simply refuse to listen to people.

Don't try and paint us as being the fools...

1.  "Clowning and mocking" was said about this recording: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=64450.0

Do you think that this performance as not a mockery?

2. Not me but you has painted yourself with your definition "ridiculous tempo" about genuine Schumann's tempo "100".

Read this, please:

Träumerei“ – „Reverie“
by Wolf-Dieter Seiffert

01. July

This is probably Robert Schumann’s most famous composition. The title alone reads as a definition and characterization of “romanticism”. The epitome of the peak of the romantic period in German music history. How many hundreds of pianists have played Schumann’s “Träumerei” so often, so beautifully and above all soooooo slowly! A strong tradition that, whether consciously or subconsciously, you are compelled to follow when you sit down to play the “Träumerei” on your own piano.



And yet, the snail’s pace at which we are accustomed to hearing Schumann’s “Träumerei” is a great mistake. A hereditary defect (that originated from Clara Schumann). There are considerable, and truly convincing reasons against the slow tempo. Let me elaborate.

In my previous entry on the Schumann Forum (June 15, see below) I presented an overview of all of Schumann’s authentic metronome markings. I quoted a leading expert on Schumann who concludes that all of Schumann’s tempo instructions should be taken seriously and regarded at least as relevant pointers. It is certain that they were intended by Schumann and were not mistakenly noted. Today, as a sort of acid test, I would like to present to you Schumann’s most famous piano piece, played as he intended, at “MM quarter note = 100”. Because the piece is traditionally played so slowly, today’s pianists reaction is to say that Schumann’s tempo is fantastically fast. Too fast. But, is it really too fast?

I asked Michael Schäfer, a wonderful pianist and professor of piano at the Musikhochschule in Munich, to play the “Träumerei” in the original tempo. Before you shake your head, please listen to the piece, played only for us, exclusively for our forum:


The pace is unaccustomed and disturbing. Because we are used to hearing it differently, and have learned to love it that way. But if it were the first time you listened to the “Träumerei”, then you wouldn’t be disturbed at all. You would hear a beautiful piano piece in fluent movement with a recurring main theme with versatile and harmonious variations. Delicate retardations and accelerations make the music talk to you. Andreas Staier has since recorded it similarly and I hear from different corners of the music world that increasingly more renowned pianists are beginning to take more heed to Schumann’s metronome markings, including those of the “Kinderszenen”. Their concerts and recordings, I am strongly convinced, will set a new tradition.


Prof. Michael Schäfer
I interviewed Professor Schäfer and asked him how he felt at tempo 100, and was of course curious to hear his general opinion. His answer surprised me; he said he was very grateful for this “experiment”. He is now convinced that only the original tempo, or one very close to it, does the “little thing” (as Schumann himself called it) justice. So, in this case, the tradition is wrong. Please listen in to Michael Schäfer’s sharp-witted and entirely convincing argumentation (in German language).


I summarized the most important points, all of them in favour of Schumann’s “MM quarter note = 100“ in the “Träumerei”.

Abstract (pdf)


Illustration “Träumerei”,
© 2005 by Tatsuki Sakamoto
I can only encourage all of the readers of this forum who themselves play the piano to try it out. Play the “Träumerei”, not as you usually do, in deep-sleep mode, but in the tempo intended by the author. Apart from the objective, artistic and no less also acoustic reasons introduced by Michael Schäfer I would like to point you to another aspect of the piece that is worth contemplation: the title. I am convinced that Schumann would have named his piece differently if he had intended a slow to very slow tempo; he would have given it the title “A Dream” and not “Reverie”. Where is the difference, you might ask? Please read my short essay, “From deep sleep to MM 100. Some thoughts on Robert Schumann’s „Träumerei“ (Reverie)”

http://www.henle.de/en/schumann-anniversary-2010/schumann-forum/traeumerei-reverie.html


Offline themeandvariation

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Vlad.. I think you've more than made your point. Perhaps you made a few converts.. Perhaps not.. Maybe some will play it a bit faster, if not even up to 100bpm.  What more are you expecting?
I hope that if the general response isn't to your liking, you won't still be brewing on this for another 6 months.. Life is too short..
4'33"

Offline perfect_pitch

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We really need a 'block user' option for these forums.

Offline visitor

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lol.this debate on how to play  Schumanm piano piece reminds me of the struggle I face when deciding what kind of cat litter to refill the litter box with


Offline vladimirdounin

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Vlad.. I think you've more than made your point. Perhaps you made a few converts.. Perhaps not.. Maybe some will play it a bit faster, if not even up to 100bpm.  What more are you expecting?
I hope that if the general response isn't to your liking, you won't still be brewing on this for another 6 months.. Life is too short..


Once I saw a farm on which the cows were fed only newspaper paper. When I tried to give the cows live, green grass, the guards forbade me to do this. "Because cows will never eat paper again, if they at least once tried to taste live grass" - guards said.

We live in a world where we are fed only with "paper" instead of real live food for our brain. We were taught to consume and absorb only "correct information" and reject any other one.

Even in music, listeners and performers do not have free choice, there is only "eat what they give".

I can not change the whole world, but that part of it,  to which I can reach with my hand, i am changing as much as  I can change.

Many people told me already that they can no longer tolerate an "acrobatics instead of music" because of my influence.
So, this is a kind of missionary activity among the ferocious and bloodthirsty pagans.
I hope that this work can make me and others a little better than we are.

Offline vladimirdounin

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We really need a 'block user' option for these forums.


Who and what makes you read something that is uninteresting to you or simply incomprehensible?

Do not like it - do not read. However, calls for the introduction of "censorship of thoughts" are considered indecent among intelligent people. This is a clear sign of bad education.

Offline mjames

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VLADIMEME
Composing/improvising

Chopin's 4th ballade and 3rd sonata.
Scriabin Op. 42 no. 1, 2, and 3.
Bach Partita No.4

Offline vladimirdounin

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VLADIMEME

What did you want to say? What does it mean??

Offline perfect_pitch

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VLADIMEME

For once - you and I agree with something. I'll enjoy it while it lasts.    ;D

However, calls for the introduction of "censorship of thoughts" are considered indecent among intelligent people.

No, actually it's not. There are people out there who are misogynists, sexist, racist and people who agree with the eradication of some types of races. They could claim bias against the 'censorship of their thoughts', but it doesn't mean their right.

You're only pissed off that no one agrees with your view. You tried making your point to us in November, no one took it on. MOVE on to another forum and try your luck there.

I hear Pianoworld is nice this time of the year. Time to let go of kicking this here dead horse.

Offline dogperson

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He’s already posted on the ‘other forum’ which drifted into other composers music and metronome markings.  Interestingly, he did not reply to this post which provides an explanation for Schumann’s MM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=1s&v=UCbrorcWvyE   

Offline outin

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No, actually it's not. There are people out there who are misogynists, sexist, racist and people who agree with the eradication of some types of races. They could claim bias against the 'censorship of their thoughts', but it doesn't mean their right.


Right and wrong as moral concepts will always be relative and tied to things like culture or religion. It is dangerous to try to control thoughts and ideas instead of actions even when done for good purpose... I'd like to see efforts to try to increase critical and rational thinking instead. This includes discussing even the weirdest ideas and increasing understanding instead of black and white thinking. But of course critical and rational people are not good for business and politics...

History has shown that there is no contradiction between having a strong sense of what's "right" and being cruel. People who strongly believe in right and wrong can be the least tolerant for diversity. Trying to ban SOME ideas because they are wrong will just open a can of worms.

Back to the topic, I think any sort of novel ideas are fine even if nuts... and it's also natural to get obsessed when you think you have discovered something new. Object as much as you like but if it really bothers you so much it would be better to not open the thread. After all you know already what to expect from the op.

Offline vladimirdounin

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He’s already posted on the ‘other forum’ which drifted into other composers music and metronome markings.  Interestingly, he did not reply to this post which provides an explanation for Schumann’s MM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=1s&v=UCbrorcWvyE   



Your message is complete disinformation.

I heard this dubious version about the need to count two metronome beats for one for the whole music of 19th century.  However,  it's completely inconclusive. After all, in this case you will have to revise all the music of the 19th century and play all the works like Mephisto Waltz and Chopin's Studies twice as slow.

Instead of this total revision, I suggested that the author simply play 4/4 instead of his variable Time Signature.
With variable Time Signature (listen to my "TEST" on this page)  tempo 100 sounds really disgusting because of the complete nonsense in the melody.  However, the same tempo sounds absolutely natural, if you do not distort Schumann's music and play his genuine  4/4.

He replied "like" to my comments.

Offline vladimirdounin

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Right and wrong as moral concepts will always be relative and tied to things like culture or religion. It is dangerous to try to control thoughts and ideas instead of actions even when done for good purpose... I'd like to see efforts to try to increase critical and rational thinking instead. This includes discussing even the weirdest ideas and increasing understanding instead of black and white thinking. But of course critical and rational people are not good for business and politics...

History has shown that there is no contradiction between having a strong sense of what's "right" and being cruel. People who strongly believe in right and wrong can be the least tolerant for diversity. Trying to ban SOME ideas because they are wrong will just open a can of worms.

Back to the topic, I think any sort of novel ideas are fine even if nuts... and it's also natural to get obsessed when you think you have discovered something new. Object as much as you like but if it really bothers you so much it would be better to not open the thread. After all you know already what to expect from the op.


Music is one of the languages ​​of humanity. Any language is based on certain rules and laws.

If we deny them and proclaim complete anarchy in our language (for example, we write everything exactly as we hear), all other people, accustomed to the traditional, normal, correct language, cease to understand us.

This is what happens today with the performance of classical music.
People do not want to listen to great works  of the best composers  performed by anarchists, who deny even all the  basic ideas of the composer. The anarchists are able to produce only noise, not music.

It is a pity that there are so many anarchists on this forum.

Offline dogperson

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Your message is complete disinformation.

I heard this dubious version about the need to count two metronome beats for one for the whole music of 19th century.  However,  it's completely inconclusive. After all, in this case you will have to revise all the music of the 19th century and play all the works like Mephisto Waltz and Chopin's Studies twice as slow.

Instead of this total revision, I suggested that the author simply play 4/4 instead of his variable Time Signature.
With variable Time Signature (listen to my "TEST" on this page)  tempo 100 sounds really disgusting because of the complete nonsense in the melody.  However, the same tempo sounds absolutely natural, if you do not distort Schumann's music and play his genuine  4/4.

He replied "like" to my comments.


You know quite well that my post is not Discussing what you may or may not have done  on YouTube. It is discussing your lack of interest in the piano world thread.  When this was posted on piano world, you have no reply on piano world   Your reply here is disinformation. 

Offline vladimirdounin

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Unfortunately, I can not afford being FULL TIME Forum member. I read and write only, when it is possible for me.

I hope that this situation would be improved when I have more "over Skype students".

Offline keypeg

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Unfortunately, I can not afford being FULL TIME Forum member. I read and write only, when it is possible for me.
I actually can't imagine what a "full time" forum member would be.  It's not like employment where one commits one's time to 8 hours/day from Mon. to Fri.  I literally don't know what that means.

Meanwhile you are asking members here to create performances according to your specifications.  That may take quite a commitment of time, to practise a piece in this manner, then make a quality recording, where the member also has to put himself out there for strangers of all kinds in the world to judge them.  Some of us are students and couldn't do this at all.  You are asking for a LOT from members; and a thing that may not interest them.  I.e. in the sense of time commitment that you just raised.

Offline vladimirdounin

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I actually can't imagine what a "full time" forum member would be.  It's not like employment where one commits one's time to 8 hours/day from Mon. to Fri.  I literally don't know what that means.

Meanwhile you are asking members here to create performances according to your specifications.  That may take quite a commitment of time, to practise a piece in this manner, then make a quality recording, where the member also has to put himself out there for strangers of all kinds in the world to judge them.  Some of us are students and couldn't do this at all.  You are asking for a LOT from members; and a thing that may not interest them.  I.e. in the sense of time commitment that you just raised.

Do not take it too seriously. The FULL TIME in this case is about the possibility of daily viewing the forum with answering the most interesting comments.

If someone finds it difficult to play a piece for the second grade of the school, then it is absolutely not necessary for everyone to do this on the forum.

However, if it is not difficult, then it is much better to answer NOT by words, but by music.

Offline tenk

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Once I saw a forum on which the trolls were ignored. When some members began to feed the trolls, the guards requested they not do this. "Because trolls will never shut the $@*% up, if they at least once scored a reply to their nonsense" - guards said.

Offline perfect_pitch

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When some members began to feed the trolls, the guards requested they not do this. "Because trolls will never shut the $@*% up, if they at least once scored a reply to their nonsense"

Yes, but some trolls are also like little kids. If they can get away with hitting their sister without consequence - they'll keep doing it over and over, using the forums as their advertising playground.

Offline outin

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Some trolls can be quite amusing...