Too muscular for piano for fast pieces

[Daren]

I feel I have a long way to go in being able to play things fast,and if I don’t push myself I’ll never make it.How can I relax and trust myself if I really don’t know if
I have what it takes?
I can play a piece over several months at a steady tempo accurately,but the moment I try to speed up tempo I play very inaccurately
.

The problem I think is I am too muscular to play the piano fast.
Before taking up the piano I spent many years bodybuilding,lifting weights which I don’t think has done me any favours now that I want to be a pianist.

Do you think I am on a losing battle?

Regards,
Daz.

[xvimbi]

The only battle you loose if you think like this is a battle against old dusty myths. There are very muscular, fat, skinny and whatever pianists who can play the entire repertoire. Unless there is a physical inability or peculiarity of some sort, there is no reason to assume that anything should hinder the development of pianistic skills.

Problems with speeding up pieces are only too common. Search on this forum and you will find a fair number of discussions. It all boils down to technique (i.e. proper coordination). Keep in mind that often enough, a technique that works at low speed may not work at higher speed. In these situations, progress is impossible without changing the technique. One example: a scale passage can be played well at low speed with the thumb-under technique, but at high speed this will be impossible, and one has to go to the thumb-over technique.

Work on your technique, not on your muscles (you need those to impress people or make them understand and appreciate your point of view...).

[alvaro_galvez]

Well, I wouldnt dismiss the myth yet...
The main problem with weights is that theyre a real biotch on the wrists and forearms (extremely important limbs when it comes to piano playing). I would advise to let off on all the exersizes that involve heavy strain on the above mentioned bodyparts (or reducing the weight dramatically).
I tell you this from experience. I go to the gym a lot and I notice that when I strain my arms too much my technical abilitities decrease a lot, and the next day I feel too stiff to make fast left and right hand runs. You´ll be fine just as long as you dont push it.

[Brian Healey]

The only thing that may be a problem is if you didn't stretch your muscles properly while you were in your body building days. When you do weight training and you don't stretch the muscles afterward, the muscles start to compress. That's why a lot of times you see a really jacked dude and it looks like he can't move around that well. That's because he can't. A better example might be a guy with big arms. Usually the guy's arm will have assumed a permenant curve. Since his arms muscles have compressed, he can't really straighten his arm fully.

That is the only problem I foresee with playing the piano. Compression in the forearm adds a hinderance to the fine motor skills needed to play the piano. Basically, the fingers don't want to work seperately. The muscles and tendons in the arm need to be loose and flexible, supple even. It may take a while of stretching your arm and shoulder muscles to work out some of the compression, but in the long run, it will aid your piano playing.

Although, it sounds like you're somewhat of a beginner, right? That just may be the problem right there. You won't be able to play fast right away, so don't get discouraged. Relaxation makes a huge difference. Practice breathing deeply through your nose as you play a piece slowly. Just like when you're working out and people tell you, "remember to breathe," well, the same is true with the piano.

If you're interested, I could give you a whole bunch of stretches to do for your arms. In general, though, try to be patient with the piano, it's not an easy thing to play.

Peace,
Bri

[lostinidlewonder]

I always thought it would be the other way around. Too weak to play fast... But i do not see how doing weights and that should hinder u playing. I teach one student who owns a Landscape/Turf farm and he lifts rolls of grass all day. His arms are twice my size and his hands are like clubs! He manages fast single notes/chord runs fine, i dont see any physical problems. I see technical problems at first, but once they are corrected i just dont see any physical attribute affecting his playing. Everyone has a unique body/hand, we learn to play with what we have got, nothing will stop us unless we are missing both hands.
I have also taught students who have had nerve problem in their arm which causes them pain when they play for too long. If you are experiecing pain then that is a totaly different story. Doctor visit for sure. But even for those with problems in their arms you have to learn to press the notes instead of playing them with the finger. Using no energy to produce the note but the weight of the hand.

[Floristan]

Daren,

I agree with Brian.  I'm in much the same position as you, having started serious study again after many years absence, and during those years I was heavily (no pun intended) into bodybuilding.

The result is that all my muscles are very tight and inflexible.  Right after I started playing seriously again, I developed increasing numbness in my thumb, index and third finger.  My doctor sent me to physical therapy, where I was diagnosed with muscle impingement on the radial and possibly ulnar nerve -- caused essentially by having too many muscles, some of which were actually putting pressure on these nerves (hence the numbness) and preventing the nerves from stretching.  Over the course of about 10 sessions, I was given a series of exercises I can do at home, the goal of which is to free up the nerves from the muscles without doing further nerve damange.  They are stretching exercises, but not the extreme kind associated with muscle/tendon stretching (like yoga).

The result has been amazing.  I went from almost constant tinglinging down my right forearm and into my fingers to rare, slight, intermittent sensations in these fingers that are manageable through the exercises I was taught.

Since starting serious study, I've eased off the weights and am on a maintenance routine, lower weights, higher reps.  I especially avoid overworking all the parts of the arm, shoulder, and back -- the muscle groups needed for playing.  The stretching I learned in physical therapy is helping to loosen my shoulder finally, but I expect it will take some time and dedication to get some real limberness back.

I don't think my muscles are a hindrance, just my lack of flexibility and limberness.  If you're in pain, see a doctor, who'll probably send you to physical therapy.  If you're not in pain, consider easing up on the poundage and raising reps, and then developing a good stretching program, like a beginning yoga course.

After all that you may want to consider taking some Alexander Technique lessons -- though some of what they teach is parallel to physical therapy.

I have all kinds of body tension I've had to start learning to overcome.  Much of it is psychological (fear of playing for someone, fear of playing wrong notes, fear of playing too slow, fear of letting go of notes and letting my arm move my hand to where it needs to be instead of stretching with my hand alone, fear of attacking ff chords from above for fear of not hitting the right notes, etc. -- much stupid fear that is the nemesis of good technique).  But I must also say my overly tight muscles prevent me to some extent from having the freedom of movement in my arm, shoulder, and back that is essential to good technique.  I'm glad to say I'm working through all those issues.

I figure in about 2 years I'll be much more flexible, and it will show in my playing...and besides, I'll just feel better!

Sorry for rambling...hope this helps.

[galonia]

I, too, agree with Brian - it's a stretching thing - coz I do weights, and in fact, I do them with a trainer who really pushes me.  So yes, I do tend to be a bit sore the following day, but I do a lot of stretching, I practise yoga/pilates and I don't have any problems with my playing.

You can play fast if you are not tense.  If your muscles are too tight, then you cannot relax them appropriately when you need to move.

[ted]

At fifty-seven there are no second chances for fitness. Therefore I maintain  a regular exercise routine involving alternating days of aerobic and resistance work. I have found that, as the others have said, certain resistance exercises can induce inflexibility of the fingers and nerve tingling. This is presumably because of pressure applied to the channels in the wrists and elbows and to the finger flexors in the forearms. It isn't permanent but I found it sufficiently noticeable and unpleasant to induce me to stop resistance training of the upper body. This is a pity because I enjoy it and I'm sure it is good for me in other ways. However, music is too precious to me to play around with.

[will]

No I don't think you are on a losing battle.

However, one thing that may be detrimental to being so muscular is that you can bang away at the piano without any regards to technique. This may mean that you use more muscle than necessary, when instead you should use coordinated and well-timed actions.

Also, many small muscles are needed to move the fingers fast and with precision. Through weight training you may be used to working larger muscles and may need to learn how to include use of the smaller muscles (the ones in the hand) into your playing.  Using a gripping motion (the type that I imagine you would use when gripping a dumbell) to play the piano will not allow you to move your fingers quickly.

Overall, I agree with xvimbi that the entire piano repertoire can be played by many pianists each with a different body shape. So go for it! If you can, try and get a good teacher to guide you.

[jlh]

One example: a scale passage can be played well at low speed with the thumb-under technique, but at high speed this will be impossible, and one has to go to the thumb-over technique.

"Thumb-over technique"?  Unless you're talking about shifting hand positions without compressing the thumb under the fingers, I don't see how "thumb-over" is even possible or useful.

[xvimbi]

"Thumb-over technique"?  Unless you're talking about shifting hand positions without compressing the thumb under the fingers, I don't see how "thumb-over" is even possible or useful.

Yes, that's what I am talking about.

[mound]

"Thumb-over technique"?  Unless you're talking about shifting hand positions without compressing the thumb under the fingers, I don't see how "thumb-over" is even possible or useful.

Chang's book describes it pretty well.. The name is a bit confusing, you're not really passing your thumb "over" (as in over the other fingers), you're passing your thumb "not under" -  sorta like your thumb and your fingers are on the same horizontal plane, and your thumb shifts quickly "over to" the note (and of course the rest of your fingers will shift over as well), rather than moving your thumb under, while the rest of the fingers remain essentially where they are.

-Paul

[Daren]

When I do try to speed up,it makes me feel I am just rushing.
Speed is different from rushing.I saw a movie about Arthur Rubinstein in which he sat very simply and played without any sense of hurry whatsoever.Even playing a difficult piece,like the Chopin F minor concerto,he looked totally comfortable,and the notes came simply,one after another,with plenty of speed but with a tremendous sense of relaxation and freedom.

My teacher has said to me to stretch to overcome my tensions just before my practice sessions.Just as some of you have commented on in your replys.Thankyou.
When I did bodybuilding I did stretch before and after workouts,but never did I stretch the arms.

Has anybody any suggestions for stretching techniques for the essential mechanics of arm movements to play piano?

Ive been playing piano 4 years now with my teacher,although I did start playing ten years ago but only in arranger style keyboards.(No bass cleff).

My pieces I am currently playing are ABRSM grade 7
 pieces,having recently passed my grade 6.

Regards,
Daz.

[lostinidlewonder]

One thing about fast sections is you shouldnt consider it fast finger movements. You should consider the overall sound quality of that group of notes. When you play you listen to that quality, not concerntrate on the physical activity of the fingers. I have found that lots of students have difficulty in fast sections because they don't know how to listen to it. If you dont know what it should sound like and know where in the group you have your problems, then no matter what you do you wont get anywhere. Its what Chopin considered more important, the sound quality rather than what the fingers are doing. The sound makes the fingers move, not the fingers make the sound move.

[will]

Ever heard of Leon Bates? He is a concert pianist who spends "two hours a day, six days a week in the gym". You can read an article about him at https://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n4_v48/ai_13368021

[Daren]

Ever heard of Leon Bates? He is a concert pianist who spends "two hours a day, six days a week in the gym". You can read an article about him at https://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n4_v48/ai_13368021


[/quote
Thats it now ,after reading this Im going to keep up fitness and piano.It must all be in the mind.
Thankyou,
Daz

[alan22]

Ever heard of Leon Bates? He is a concert pianist who spends "two hours a day, six days a week in the gym". You can read an article about him at https://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n4_v48/ai_13368021

thanks for sharing it was quite good articles but i dont know what happand some how i feel some of the article i already read it.......

Chino physical therapy

[sunshine_keys]

I'm not all muscular, and I still have a hard time with really fast pieces sometimes. I think it just takes lots of practice

[jaggens]

Hi,

I think that I understand what you mean.
Some kind of playing technique will open the door to higher velocities some not.

Ideas:

1) increase fingers and also other body parts independence. The more independent different body parts are the better they can co-work.

2) The use of right finger technique is vital. Most of pianist who have troubles suffer of a finger technique that tires and burdens the whole hand while playing. But there is also s certain technique that makes the direction of energy very efficient and exact. (in my free piano course the finger technique is explained in detail).

3) Motion makes it relaxed while all kind of stiffness starins out.

4) Hand technique can take lot of finger movements into one longer motion. It brings down the tension.

About speed - while practising with right methods slowly and patiently, the speed will go up with no need to force or push.

GL
Jaak