Forearm Movement - Scaramuzza Piano Technique

[wkmt]

Read the latest article written by Maestro Juan Rezzuto.
Follow up the series of General Piano technique - Scaramuzza. In this new one, Maestro Rezzuto explores the forearm movement.

Click on the link below to access the article and the series:

https://www.i-am-a-spammer.com/single-post/2017/11/11/Forearm-movement

[keypeg]

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[timothy42b]

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I agree.

[keypeg]

Timothy, here were my actual impressions.

One single movement out of the complex interconnected movements was shown: the forearm going up and down from the elbow joint - landing on the "support" of the finger. While the writer says this connects to other movements, the fact is that this single thing is shown.  Anyone who knows how to play the piano will know this and many more things - especially teachers - so I don't see it as useful for teachers.  Anyone who doesn't know how to play piano, and who might use this as a tutorial or model, can seriously mess themselves up.  Among other things:

- He may stiffen his finger and keep it stiff
- He may stiffen his wrist (partly as a consequence of the first)
- He may lock his upper arm at the shoulder, in order to make the movement come from the elbow joint

All of these things can lead to injury, poor technique, and set up poor body use.  The movements of piano playing should be taught by the teacher, at the piano, comprehensively, subtly and gradually.  In fact, if I were a teacher, and a teacher at the school, I would ask my students not to look at these things on the site, so that I would not have to undo the damage that can happen, and so that I could properly guide my students as I see fit.  One would assume and HOPE that any teacher who teaches already knows how the body functions, and how to guide his/her students.

That is the long version of " . ".  The shorter version that preceded the dot was something like "Oh dear!"

[keypeg]

As an aside and OT, I just noticed for the first time, the little icon to the bottom right of my last post, clicked it and it opened my post back up for editing.  I was thinking, "Why is there a picture of a bullet going toward a white square?"    It must be the tip of a pen touching paper.

[timothy42b]

Timothy, here were my actual impressions.

One single movement out of the complex interconnected movements was shown: the forearm going up and down from the elbow joint - landing on the "support" of the finger.

Exactly.

No mention of rotation?  There is no way you can talk piano technique without forearm rotation.

Also, the statement that the bicep and tricep raise the forearm struck me as wrong, or at least incomplete.  The tricep opposes the bicep, so I don't see how they both lift the forearm, and I'm relatively sure the deltoid has something to do with it too. 

[wkmt]

I'm intending to create a comprehensive database of the 5 piano movements I learnt from Bruno Gelber. These movements can later be combined for different purposes. I will be releasing them in a chain so we can work on a debate.

These movements should not be understood as singularly used when playing, despite the fact that they very usually are. If anyone in this community has ever been aware of the Scaramuzza technique, please comment... All others: please share your impressions.

Thank you for your participation

www.wkmt.co.uk

[keypeg]

What you are showing is not unique or new.  But in the way it is shown, it can be easily misunderstood and not done in any good way.  I think I have seen videos of your playing, and you don't look like that (fortunately).  This really is not a good way of illustrating or explaining anything.  It is also potentially harmful.

There is a vast difference between what a musician pictures  - what he explains - and how that explanation is received.  This is NOT a good way of trying to communicate, and definitely not a good way to "teach".  That is my honest feedback.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I have to agree with keypeg.

And I think there are dangerous generalisations in this article. For example "The height reached by the hand and the forearm during the negative-movement-stage will depend on the sound we are aiming to obtain from the instrument: the higher the hand, the louder the instrument will sound."

This leaves any rational reader with the impression that to play forte, one needs to raise the hand. This is manifestly ridiculous, for example when applied to the octaves in the sixth Hungarian Rhapsody.

There are certain aspects of technique and tone production, imo, which the Internet is fundamentally unsuited to communicating, and which should be left to direct interaction between a teacher and a pupil.

[keypeg]

If you want to transmit any ideas of Scaramuzza, it should be something comprehensive that hangs together.  The present video does not bring anything across.  I found an article on Scaramuzza some time back when this first came up.
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1066&context=musicstudent

[hardy_practice]

Anyone in the UK who wishes to experience the 'Scaramuzza' effect only need contact Alberto Portugheis, one of his students.  He lives and works in Central London.

[ahoffmann]

I pretty much started the piano with Scaramuzza's method. It caused me a lot of problems. I can't say there is no merit to it but I think one should dose it carefully and in the proper context.

[pianoplayer002]

Exactly.

No mention of rotation?  There is no way you can talk piano technique without forearm rotation.

I wholeheartedly disagree. I think you can construct a healthy technique without putting any conscious thought into forearm rotation at all. In fact, what I see the most, is most students trying to consciously rotate the forearm instead of being supple and active in their fingers to do tremolos and other rotation-y stuff, end up tense and clumsy from this approach.

Also, the statement that the bicep and tricep raise the forearm struck me as wrong, or at least incomplete.  The tricep opposes the bicep, so I don't see how they both lift the forearm, and I'm relatively sure the deltoid has something to do with it too.  

The muscles that flex the elbow joint, according to wikipedia, are Biceps, brachialis, and Brachioradialis.

Since the body is an interconnected system rather than isolated things that move in some kind off binary on/off fashion, the deltoid might of course activate during certain movements of the forearm, but it is not in any way directly connected to this body part.

EDIT: As for the article, I have a lot of problems with it in addition to what keypeg said, a lot of things are unclear and could be misunderstood by the student. Some examples:

The height reached by the hand and the forearm during the negative-movement-stage will depend on the sound we are aiming to obtain from the instrument: the higher the hand, the louder the instrument will sound.

You can get a very loud sound from playing from the key too, no height required. You can also play pianissimo dropping your hand from shoulder height. The ideas here seem very limiting to me.

The targeting finger will act as a shock-absorber and a spring to re ignite the forearm upwards during the beginning of the negative movement (as soon as the forearm is ignited upwards, the biceps and triceps will take over)

I can see about five million ways a student could misunderstand this. And I disagree with the shock absorber part too.

The finger/s which needs to target becomes stiffer than the other ones which remain slightly lifted so they don’t impact on any undesired note in the landing.

Anything that contains the word "stiffness", apart from sentences warning earnestly against it, is dangerous in the context of piano playing, in my opinion. The fingers are better off being supple at all times.

All the weight of the arm is supported by the finger itself.

This can also be misunderstood in five million ways.

[anamnesis]

I wholeheartedly disagree. I think you can construct a healthy technique without putting any conscious thought into forearm rotation at all. In fact, what I see the most, is most students trying to consciously rotate the forearm instead of being supple and active in their fingers to do tremolos and other rotation-y stuff, end up tense and clumsy from this approach.

Any mistaught technique can lead to problems. Forearm rotation can't replace active fingers, but the opposite isn't true either. 

Without having rotation at your disposal (and knowing how to refine and time it) you limit the degrees of freedom that can be explored and actively refined. 

It's especially important because it allows you to explore the relation between the timing and direction of key articulation by the fingers with motion that occurs in the frontal plane (relative to us it divides us front to back, but movement in it is side-to-side or using the keyboard as a reference: movement along the horizontal keyboard). 

Optimizing movement in all three planes is the goal of motor coordination, and the frontal plane in particular happens to correspond with how musical motion is represented on the keyboard! 

[timothy42b]

Since the body is an interconnected system rather than isolated things that move in some kind off binary on/off fashion, the deltoid might of course activate during certain movements of the forearm, but it is not in any way directly connected to this body part.

If the elbow joint stays fixed in space and the forearm lifts, then I would say it is the biceps group doing it.

However it is not uncommon in piano playing for the hand to lift because the arm moved as a unit, without or without the elbow joint flexing, but with the elbow joint moving forward and up.  That I think requires deltoid activation.  

[pianoplayer002]

Any mistaught technique can lead to problems. Forearm rotation can't replace active fingers, but the opposite isn't true either.  

Without having rotation at your disposal (and knowing how to refine and time it) you limit the degrees of freedom that can be explored and actively refined.  

Here's the thing though - I'm not saying that there can't be any rotation present in the forearm, it's just that I found that I and other people do better when they don't consciously try to create that rotation. Trying to do it with the brain most people end up doing artificial and inefficient movements in my experience.

Of course there might be small rotational movements happening in the forearm, and upper arm, and so on, but I've ended up making a conscious effort to make them completely unconscious - they are a result of me allowing my arms and hands to be supple and relaxed and asking my fingers to play the notes, rather than a conscious desicion to rotate anything. My body seems to know better than my brain, if I let go and allow it to work its own magic. Are you able to pick up a pencil without effort or any conscious thought on how to position your arm, or rotate your forearm, in order to position your fingers to grab it? I think playing any key can work the same way, if you allow it to.

However it is not uncommon in piano playing for the hand to lift because the arm moved as a unit, without or without the elbow joint flexing, but with the elbow joint moving forward and up.  That I think requires deltoid activation.  

Of course. But I don't think it's something a pianist can/should sit and think about while playing. Just decide to move your finger to a certain spot and the body will choose what muscles to activate for you (this requires practising letting your body be relaxed or otherwise some of the muscles the body might choose might be tight and block the efficiency of the movement).

[pianoplayer002]

. oops double post

[timothy42b]

Of course. But I don't think it's something a pianist can/should sit and think about while playing. Just decide to move your finger to a certain spot and the body will choose what muscles to activate for you (this requires practising letting your body be relaxed or otherwise some of the muscles the body might choose might be tight and block the efficiency of the movement).

Ah.  You're an Inner Tennis fan, goal oriented vs method oriented.

That works very well for some people, and not at all for others. 

[pianoplayer002]

Ah.  You're an Inner Tennis fan, goal oriented vs method oriented.

That works very well for some people, and not at all for others. 

I started reading The Inner Game but never finished it, so yes and no.

I've just found that many methods that intellectualizes joints and movements and arches and whatever don't work for me, because when I try to experience the things the method intellectualizes about, I end up tensing.

I read "What every pianist needs to know about the body". It did more harm than good in many ways.
I read Abby Whiteside "On Piano Playing". All its talk about levers and fulcrums and pulls and whatever did more harm than good.
I studied 3d models of human anatomy and learned all the muscles in the arm. Good knowledge to have, sure, but it didn't help me much in what I was actually supposed to say to my body to get it to play in a way that wasn't tense.
I read about arm weight, "correct position" of everything (some of it wrong!), I read about "lifting the sound out of the piano", rotation, how the movements of the fingers were supposed to look, whatever.

All these things that made me actively think about doing something other than relaxing and getting the sounds I want with my finger tips just caused issues. And I see the same issues in many students. One example is a student who was told that the playing movement of the finger comes "from the knuckle", so they had been playing with tension in the knuckles in order to "feel" the movement "coming" from there. Undoing that habit has been a very slow process.

[anamnesis]

I started reading The Inner Game but never finished it, so yes and no.

I've just found that many methods that intellectualizes joints and movements and arches and whatever don't work for me, because when I try to experience the things the method intellectualizes about, I end up tensing.

I read "What every pianist needs to know about the body". It did more harm than good in many ways.
I read Abby Whiteside "On Piano Playing". All its talk about levers and fulcrums and pulls and whatever did more harm than good.
I studied 3d models of human anatomy and learned all the muscles in the arm. Good knowledge to have, sure, but it didn't help me much in what I was actually supposed to say to my body to get it to play in a way that wasn't tense.
I read about arm weight, "correct position" of everything (some of it wrong!), I read about "lifting the sound out of the piano", rotation, how the movements of the fingers were supposed to look, whatever.

All these things that made me actively think about doing something other than relaxing and getting the sounds I want with my finger tips just caused issues. And I see the same issues in many students. One example is a student who was told that the playing movement of the finger comes "from the knuckle", so they had been playing with tension in the knuckles in order to "feel" the movement "coming" from there. Undoing that habit has been a very slow process.

None of this works because you are viewing that information too logically and not learning how to use it pragmatically in a case by case basis. 

The point of them is to provide a basic model or framework that you improve overtime as you solve more and more problems. 

The entire way motor learning works is first freeing up range of motion and then restricting it in a deliberate manner by actively comparing it with "wrong exaggerations".   Overtime you become more sensitive and what was a small or even imperceptible exaggeration is perceived as big, making it easier to refine. 

But this doesn't work unless that range of motion was freed up in the first place. In a sense sloppiness or clumsiness is better starting state to be in. Tensing up to overcome it means you chose to wrong strategy.   

But choosing the correct strategy requires actually allowing your brain to map yourself in relation to the piano, and this can't be done purely intuitively because you need to increasingly refine your sensations, landmarks, timing, and sequencing of events. Doing it intuitively without modeling, choreography, and navigation leads to ceilings that can take ages to overcome purely intuitively, if ever.

BTW, I've come to the opinion that the best replacement for "relaxation" is autonomic regulation.  Appropriate regulation is required for both  motor learning and the ability to perform (which is essentially a direct challenge to it).   

https://trainadaptevolve.com/postural-restoration-and-the-autonomic-nervous-system/

Learning the proper timing (and manipulation of direction) on how to destabilize and re-stabilize (in a way that keeps you moving forward) is what we aim for, and it can't be done with purely isolated thinking because everything from the floor, to the chair seat, to our fingers is fair game. 

Most people can't even intuitively sit in a balanced state in a non-challenged situation.  How do we expect them to do it intuitively in situations where they are being challenged upon every articulation? 









 

[pianoplayer002]

None of this works because you are viewing that information too logically and not learning how to use it pragmatically in a case by case basis. 

Yes. I've especially noticed this with students who are like me, who are highly analytical and logical in their brain. For us, this approach is the wrong way to go. It's funny in a way. The people whose biggest asset is their brain need to learn how to shut off their brain. EDIT: whoah that sounded like a humble brag but wasn't meant that way at all  an over-analytical brain can be a detriment in many ways.

But choosing the correct strategy requires actually allowing your brain to map yourself in relation to the piano, and this can't be done purely intuitively because you need to increasingly refine your sensations, landmarks, timing, and sequencing of events. Doing it intuitively without modeling, choreography, and navigation leads to ceilings that can take ages to overcome purely intuitively, if ever.

I agree with this, I just come at it from a different angle. The brain has to think about something, but thinking about every individual joint and angle is just not possible while you play. Especially since your brain should be conscerning itself with music, and have as much of its focus resources as possible available to do so.

Learning the proper timing (and manipulation of direction) on how to destabilize and re-stabilize (in a way that keeps you moving forward) is what we aim for, and it can't be done with purely isolated thinking because everything from the floor, to the chair seat, to our fingers is fair game. 

I don't talk about stabilization at all. I don't think it's needed and it can easily encourage a student to tense. But I do talk about the whole body. If you are tensing your feet, it will likely affect your arms.

Most people can't even intuitively sit in a balanced state in a non-challenged situation.  How do we expect them to do it intuitively in situations where they are being challenged upon every articulation? 

We don't expect them to, we teach them how. We teach them how to do it intuitively. It's like with posture. The advice out there is awful. People who slouch are taught to stand up straight by pulling themselves upright and holding themselves there. Shoulders back, suck in your stomach, neck straight etc. The reason you are standing with a slouch is because you are tightening certain muscles. When you are pulling yourself upright and holding yourself there, you are tensing even more muscles, in addition to the ones that were already tight. A better way to correct the slouch is to learn to release the muscles that were originally pulling you down into the slouch. Then you will stand upright intuitively, without having to think about "putting yourself" in an upright "position". The body was designed to stand upright through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, and knows how to do it, if we let it. The majority will need a teacher to help them become aware of how they're blocking themselves from doing it, though.

[hardy_practice]

If the elbow joint stays fixed in space and the forearm lifts, then I would say it is the biceps group doing it.
 

It's only the biceps if the palm is facing up.  I think palms down it's maybe the brachialis, and Brachioradialis.  (though I tell my students it's the biceps - they're only children, what do they know!).

[timothy42b]

I read Abby Whiteside "On Piano Playing". All its talk about levers and fulcrums and pulls and whatever did more harm than good.

I am a Whiteside fan, but more on the timing aspect than leverage explanations.  She was partly a reaction to a very finger centric coin-on-the-knuckles style of teaching, also. 

I think it may be that where you use sound as an organizing principle, she used time (like the pedagog Caruso did). 

If you go here:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=44

you'll see an example of a place where people ask for advice on a sports motion, throwing a golf disc.  They post video of their efforts.

Then others give them advice.  That advice is not to picture the desired flight of the throw, that is pretty much assumed.  The advice is always mechanical - how to rotate in the backswing, where the weight should be, what the arm angle should be, etc.  Pick a random post and watch it. 

Of course there are people who can improve just by picturing the result.  They don't need lessons. 

Is your position that all we really need to do is ignore all that technical stuff and just focus on where we want the disc to go, like you focus on what sound you want? 

[keypeg]

It's only the biceps if the palm is facing up.  I think palms down it's maybe the brachialis, and Brachioradialis.  (though I tell my students it's the biceps - they're only children, what do they know!).

This is off topic completely, but here is something that has been bothering me for a week.  I seem to remember that you also studied violin or viola at some point?  Regardless:  Out of curiosity I signed up for a course on teaching violin.  There is an exercise where the student is to raise the violin into the air like the statue of liberty, before placing it on the collarbone.  When it is thus raised, the teacher is to tap the biceps, calling it the "violin muscle".  My thought is that when you raise a torch, a violin, or anything up in that position, it's not the biceps that are involved.  Or are they?

This has been bugging me for three weeks.     

[wkmt]

Timothy, here were my actual impressions.

One single movement out of the complex interconnected movements was shown: the forearm going up and down from the elbow joint - landing on the "support" of the finger. While the writer says this connects to other movements, the fact is that this single thing is shown. 

If I shown all the pianistic movements in one single video I should also offer some refreshments to the viewers so they don't die of thirst in the middle of my explanation

I'm posting the next ones very soon.

[wkmt]

Exactly.
There is no way you can talk piano technique without forearm rotation.

In the Scaramuzza Technique the rotation is treated separately. At least at the beginning when we are setting up the basic movements...

[wkmt]

I have to agree with keypeg.

This leaves any rational reader with the impression that to play forte, one needs to raise the hand. This is manifestly ridiculous, for example when applied to the octaves in the sixth Hungarian Rhapsody.

When we teach this movement from stage 0, we need to make our students aware of the importance of acknowledging that distance to the key equals higher speed on free fall. Remember that in this technique we will try to rely on free fall as much as we can.

In the case of the Rhapsody passage you mentioned, of course, speed and volume will be treated in a different way, but it is still healthy to present the topic in this way as a manner of introduction, as in most of the pieces the beginner-intermediate performer will play, this rule can be applied. in the case of an exception, the exception will be treated in due course.

[wkmt]

It's only the biceps if the palm is facing up.  I think palms down it's maybe the brachialis, and Brachioradialis.  (though I tell my students it's the biceps - they're only children, what do they know!).

Exactly!, we need to relate the teaching to what is easy to understand.

[keypeg]

When we teach this movement from stage 0, we need to make our students aware of the importance of acknowledging that distance to the key equals higher speed on free fall. Remember that in this technique we will try to rely on free fall as much as we can.

In the manner this is being presented, it can lead to injury.  I think most of us are aware of that principle.

[hardy_practice]

This is off topic completely, but here is something that has been bothering me for a week.  I seem to remember that you also studied violin or viola at some point?  Regardless:  Out of curiosity I signed up for a course on teaching violin.  There is an exercise where the student is to raise the violin into the air like the statue of liberty, before placing it on the collarbone.  When it is thus raised, the teacher is to tap the biceps, calling it the "violin muscle".  My thought is that when you raise a torch, a violin, or anything up in that position, it's not the biceps that are involved.  Or are they?

This has been bugging me for three weeks.    

If the palm is facing the face then it is indeed the biceps but of course muscles in the shoulder are working harder to keep the upper arm in place.

If Mr wk is suggesting the fingers/hand/arm drop from a height then he is potentialy injuring students.

[timothy42b]

If Mr wk is suggesting the fingers/hand/arm drop from a height then he is potentialy injuring students.

He would not be unique though.

That is one of the common ways the feeling of arm weight is described.  I think of it as a metaphor but it is usually described as actual mechanics. 

[hardy_practice]

I hold the student's sleeve while they straighten their middle finger.  I then drop their finger/hand/arm into the keyboard.  It's important I'm there to guide, that way it's safe.

[keypeg]

He would not be unique though.

That is one of the common ways the feeling of arm weight is described.  I think of it as a metaphor but it is usually described as actual mechanics. 

Not in the manner illustrated, with those explanations.  I have learned it myself, and I have also seen it taught outside of what my own teacher does.  Anyway, at least one member went into details about this. Typically, it was ignored by the OP.

[keypeg]

I hold the student's sleeve while they straighten their middle finger.  I then drop their finger/hand/arm into the keyboard.  It's important I'm there to guide, that way it's safe.

I've underlined the important part.

[wkmt]

If the palm is facing the face then it is indeed the biceps but of course muscles in the shoulder are working harder to keep the upper arm in place.

If Mr wk is suggesting the fingers/hand/arm drop from a height then he is potentialy injuring students.

I believe you are judging very lightly Scaramuzza technique. I kindly invite you to watch how Bruno Gleber uses free fall on Rach 3. Enjoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAilkPMWPtM

[keypeg]

I believe you are judging very lightly Scaramuzza technique.

I linked to a complete article on Scaramuzza (which you did not acknowledge or comment on).  There is nothing wrong with the technique.  The problem is YOUR PRESENTATION.  I doubt that Bruno Gleber learned his technique through your article.  What you do present is not "Scaramuzza technique".   It is an oversimplified explanation of a well known principle that is used by Scaramuzza and others, and is also taught by the teacher whom you have just addressed.  He explains it in another post.

I believe that you are a well taught and probably good pianist.  I don't know if you have any teacher training, though.  Your explanations tend to be quite off in that respect. 

[maitea]

@Pianoplayer002: I could have written your posts myself! Well, not verbatim but almost Seems we have a similar background story and learning process. x

[wkmt]

Dear Maitea,

That's nice to hear. Where are you from? With what maestro have you studied with?

I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

Kind regards,