A beginner seeking advice from experienced and advanced pianists

[blairderosa]

Greetings, everyone. First I must thank all who would spend time reading this request of mine.

Then as my question requires an introduction for you kind readers, I must say that I am a beginner learner, who has ventured to start learning piano at the age of twenty one, presently reaching the page forty four of Beyer and the sixth practice of Hanon (To performing which I have recently been assigned) after five months of learning. I have already acquired very basic knowledge of music, for I have played electric guitar for two and a half years, finishing several books on the art.

When I originally desired to learn piano, I had very different goals in my mind. Yet after listening to a few pieces of sir Chopin, I had resolved to one day gain the courage and capability of playing his pieces.

Before further explanation of my interests, which may not seem very relevant to the question, Allow me to discuss the question.


I have come across several arguments in regard to the value of books such as Hanon, Czerny and others. Many claim pieces themselves have proved to hold greater power than any of the aforementioned books. However, a beginner such as I, should not be able to play perhaps even touch the pieces of such an importance.

For my original intention, perhaps these books and then studying my desired music at that while would suffice. Nevertheless, now that I have been graced with the chance to see this world of enchantment that is the classical music, I feel lost, for I do not know how I should practice, what I should follow, how much time I should dedicate to each practice, and what I should learn.

Now since I wish to shed more light on this matter, as ambitious or rather foolish as it seems for I am a late learner, I should admit that I am determined to one day become an advanced player and have the honor of playing perhaps several pieces of my favorite composers, who are sir Chopin (I long to possess the skills needed to play his Op 10 no 1 etude and Fantaisie Impromptu one day, no matter how afar the day stands), Franz Liszt, Alexander Scriabin, Johannes Brahms, Ferruccio Busoni, Robert Schumann, and Richard Wagner.

As it is clear from the great names of these sublime composers, I have little hopes of ever being qualified to set my sight on theirs works which are all masterpieces, or even reaching the skill of an advanced player for my terrible age, let alone daring to use them for my practice in the near future.

I find the practice for my other instrument to be rather distinct, for it does not share any kinship with the formality and organization of Piano lessons or manner of practice. I stated this so that I would not be severely blamed for the generality and vagueness of my following inquiry, as I truly know not how to approach an instrument such as piano, and I know not of the path one must tread to fulfill such a challenging and demanding end.

Therefore, I will trouble you with these excessive descriptions no more, and ask my question barely. What should I practice, how should I practice, and how much should I practice, if I am ever to realize the distant dream of growing near to the level of an advanced player, and be blessed with the ability to play the magnificent works of such glorious composers? Are there any books such as Hanon which can avail me in this path, or perhaps it is a necessity to follow one for the sake of my dream? I willingly spend three to four hours a day for piano, and dedicate one hour each day to the study of music theory. Moreover, I strive to have more effective and fruitful practices everyday for the time being.


I must gladsomely express my gratitude for the time you invested in reading the irrational dream of a beginner, and apologize if the eagerness toward my unattainable hopes have disturbed an experienced pianist who knows much about one's limits.

[indianajo]

czerny & hanson do not come with instructions in the hand mechanics you need to accomplish their plan of instruction.
These techniques have traditionally been imparted by the instructor.  Preferably one who has been to a reputable school and knows the basics.
It is possible to injure oneself playing piano and other repetitive motion hand exercise.  Proper posture and movements are necessary. 
I was shown most of these over 8 years of study and do not do these exercises anymore.  I do ragtime to keep my strength and flexibility up.  But I did study in the beginning, which is the proper time.
I suggest you budget for a monthly lesson with a teacher, if they are especially expensive in your area. When I was going, $10 a lesson was the going rate, but that was 60 years ago. I went once a week.   
check around churches and professional organizations for teachers, as the ones that teach in the music store are likely to be expensive.  The ones in the music store are often unnecessarily  interested in selling more music books or even instruments, as they often get a commission. 
10 minutes exercise a day was my teacher's prescription. More than that would have definitely bored me into indifference.  She was also useful for finding repretoire I enjoyed, from composers that I had never heard of, and was just above my comfort level. 

[outin]

Considering your goals a teacher would be recommended, it would save you a lot of time and with a good one you would be playing some good music by your favorite composers in just a few years even if you are so very old already.

Only kidding of course, I was 45 when I started and your goals do not seem unreasonable even for someone my age, if there's enough time and effort and a good enough teacher.

[blairderosa]

Thank you for your advices, dear readers.

I started with an instructor who still teaches me; However, since I had started for other means, he also excels in the genre wherein I was previously interested. He is a very skilled pianist, yet when I asked him about sir Chopin's pieces, he stated his opinion which was one could acquire the capability of reaching the required speed to perform them after finishing Hanon. I sought to know the opinions of several advanced pianists concerning the other practices needed for such an end, since many do not hold Hanon in a high regard.

[indianajo]

I actually started exercises with Schmitt, which really builds evenness of strength of the fingers, and can be played very fast at the end of the week. 
Then I went to Edna Mae Berman, who is a US exercise author whose books are much more in order than hanon, which is terribly disorganized.  Pre, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc the skills build in a very organized manner. before EMB book  5 I was moved to Czerny school of velocity.
There were a couple of Chopin nocternes I played in my third year. They are not very hard, and certainly not fast.  Great for building a singing tone.  Too many notes at once too young, a great prescription for a sloppy performer that never gets the notes all right.  Before I finished a piece the notes were all perfect, even if my interpretations at age 12 were quite juvenile. 

[beethovenfan01]

Well I wonder if you are a poet as well as a pianist, your writing style is very lyrical and flowery ... 

To answer your question: get a teacher and do the work. Your teacher knows what you need. Hanon exercises are NOT one-size-fits all; but that said, I learned a lot from many of his exercises. They didn't turn me into a technically-perfect pianist, but they did help me improve in my eveness of touch and fluidity of trills. As for Czerny and Schmitt, I know almost nothing about them so I can't help you there.

However, too reiterate--your teacher KNOWS WHAT YOU NEED to reach an advanced level. Once you do, Chopin and Liszt's etudes themselves will help you continue to build speed and technique; but to be able to learn from them, you first need a strong foundation in note-reading, hand movement, interpretation, and a fluency in the mechanics of playing the piano.

One last note--it's rather dangerous to go down this path. I say that because you may think there are only a few pieces you want to learn, but as your musical breadth and maturity increases, you may find your list of desired repertoire stretches further than you can ever hope to achieve in your entire life. As Rachmaninoff (I think) said, "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music."

Good luck on your studies!

[outin]

I want to add that Hanon, Czerny and other exercises are by no means necessary to play music. There are teachers who can teach you to play those composers by using real music in a progressive way. That is the way I prefer, I have little tolerance for drilling musically inferior things. My favorite finger exercises are Scarlatti sonatas...

But clearly you need a teacher who has classical training and pianistic skills advanced enough to teach you such music. Some things will forever remain too difficult if all the advice you get is to practice. There are ways to make things playable or even easy that are difficult to figure out by the inexperienced...

[mjames]

The only drill/finger exercises I've done were by dohnanyi and I only did 5 of them out of like a dozen or so. That was earlier this year, my 4th year, while learning a Liszt etude and a Chopin rondo. Right before that I started drilling arpeggios and scales to learn how to play them quickly and relaxed, haven't done any of that in several months. Currently learning polonaise fantasie by Chopin and another Liszt etude with a conservatory professor.

Before this year I hardly used any exercises or scales to practice my technique, and I've played Rach preludes, Chopin nocturnes, Beethoven sonatas etc and I learned them well enough to use them successfully for auditions. Bottom line is if you want to play cool pieces JUST for fun you don't need all that drilling crap, you just have to watch out for what you're doing when you're learning your pieces. Go straight into the fun dude and worry about solidifying technique until later.

And yes, get a teacher. The sooner the better.

[danielo]

The best way to learn a piece is by playing it. There are any number of scales, arpeggios, trills in all kinds of pieces, I know my trills improved enormously when I knew I had to practice them for a particular piece. Scales can help with fluency but it's rare to find any scale in it's base form in any piece worth its salt. Learning Hanon and Czerny will make you much better at Hanon and Czerny, and little else. Accurate fingering is very important, I would definitely recommend you get a teacher who will help you to choose pieces that will be at the right level for you to improve.

[rmbarbosa]

If you cant get a teacher, there are in youtube a lot of teachers who explain how to play.
Here, in this forum, there are members who dont like Hanon, Czerny and similars. And there are others who defend them.
To a beginner, in the first approach to piano technic, Hanon may be useful for a while. Scales and harps are very important also. Bur when one has adquired some bases, then is the time to play Music.
Hanon may be useful, but he say nothing about how to play his exercises well,e.g., about the use of the body, the ancient five fingers technic versus the russian school, the position of the fingers, relaxation, etc... theese things you may learn them with youtube teachers and even reading the posts of this forum, where are very experienced members.
When I was young, I studied by Schmoll. You can download his method in the internet, free. He is very interesting because since the first lesson the begginer is playing Music, not dry exercices. His method has five books, each book with 30 lessons, one each day. He also gives some basic notions of music theory.
In six months, with <> 2 0r 3 hours/day, one can reach an intermediate level. Have a look, if you wish.
All good to you.
Rui

[dogperson]

..,
When I was young, I studied by Schmoll. You can download his method in the internet, free. He is very interesting because since the first lesson the begginer is playing Music, not dry exercices. His method has five books, each book with 30 lessons, one each day. He also gives some basic notions of music theory.
In six months, with <> 2 0r 3 hours/day, one can reach an intermediate level. Have a look, if you wish.
All good to you.
Rui

How are you defining intermediate? I’m curious how any method book could get a beginning  student  to what I consider to be an intermediate level in six months.

[diminishedkey]

It is all well and good to have lofty ambitions to play advanced pieces as long term goals, but what to do in the meantime? Five months is not long. I have just completed five years of piano, (my ability is probably considered normal) but I am still years away from being able to tackle my long term goal pieces and do them justice. This isn't about how many hours you are willing to put in per day but how you learn to practice effectively and efficiently over the course of years. Be wary of those who promise a quick fix, this may well delay your progress if you get distracted.

"What should I practice, how should I practice, and how much should I practice, if I am ever to realize the distant dream of growing near to the level of an advanced player"

get a teacher who will lead you through the appropriate grade levels. They might endorse Hanon they may not. When you find yourself at a more advanced level you might try Hanon, or you might do what many others do and use a specific piece being worked on as the exercise itself.

[sulocana]

Hello.  I was a piano major in college and graduated in 1971.  I studied with Ruth Laredo, a great concert pianist.  On the subject of Czerny and Hanon, she was against them because she said it could lead to mechanical, stiff and unmusical playing.  All of my teachers emphasized playing with a relaxed hand and practicing Hanon can lead to some bad habits.  Ruth Laredo recommended the "Dozen a Day" series of exercises.  She also didn't recommend practicing scales, but I still needed to learn them all.  She was a child prodigy and I didn't start piano until I was 18, except for 2 years from age 7 to 9.  The thing that helped me the most was learning all of my scales, arpeggios and cadences really well.  I still practice some Hanon exercises to review some scales, although Ruth Laredo's advice was probably the better choice.  The other thing that helped me was to learn pieces that were way above my level by struggling through them a couple of measures at a time.

[mjames]

How are you defining intermediate? I’m curious how any method book could get a beginning  student  to what I consider to be an intermediate level in six months.

Bach preludes, Chopin Nocturnes (op.9 no. 1), Clementi Sonatinas.


Method books get you started, if you're self-teaching you usually abandon them in the beginning and make up your stuff as you go along.

[dogperson]

Bach preludes, Chopin Nocturnes (op.9 no. 1), Clementi Sonatinas.


Method books get you started, if you're self-teaching you usually abandon them in the beginning and make up your stuff as you go along.

Exactly.   I don’t believe there is a method book alive that will get you from Ground Zero to intermediate in six months. There are just too many skills that need to be developed.  So when someone posts that there is a method book that will do exactly that I’d like to know how  and the definition of intermediate that is implied.

[bernadette60614]

I would advise:

Focus on the process and not the outcome. Focus on learning how to practice, practice consistently and intentionally.

Don't be afraid to change teachers if you are practicing consistently and intentionally and you feel that you are not learning what you need to learn.

Learning an instrument for me has been like marriage:  falling in love, courting, the honeymoon ., early infatuation, reality setting in, and then commitment to the relationship.  Commit, work at it, and you'll find yourself enjoying the day to day work of learning how to play.

[bernadette60614]

I would also add:

I read somewhere (and I don't know how this statistic was derived) that for each minute of music you hear when you hear a great pianist (a Brendel, Kissin), to produce that minute took 17 hours of practice.

Now, unless I practice for the rest of my life nonstop, I"m never going to achieve that number of hours.  I am happy to play less advanced pieces well, than to stumble and bumble around advanced pieces I can just play.

[bronnestam]

Hi and welcome.
First, I hope you were a little ironical when you talk about your "terrible age". My son is also in that age. And there are people who started playing decades later in life than you, and they are fine. Let's skip the neverending discussion on becoming a world-famous concert pianist blah blah blah. Let's pretend this is about love for music and piano playing - in that aspect, you are never "too old" to begin.

For example, the composers and pieces you mention are all within your reach, sooner or later. Most of all, none of them are holy sacraments and if you want to give them a try, why not just do it? Sure it will take many years from now before you can play the whole Fantasie Improptu, for example, but nothing stops you from getting the score, look at it and make some attempts here and there. You can do it just the way you prefer. Analyse. Try. Simplify. Play it slowly, explore, test the final chord and enjoy the sound - whatever you like. The piece is yours to literally play with, nobody will kill you for what you are doing with it.
On the other hand, I warn you from jumping on too difficult pieces too soon and try to play them as a whole "just like [insert name of famous star here] would". You will most likely injure yourself, and also learn some bad habits/wrong movements that will be hard to get rid of later. But if you analyse a piece, you may get certain ideas for your upcoming practice. When I start something new, I try to work out which key it is, then I play the scale of that key, the chord progressions and so on. If you do Hanon exercises, you may find a purpose with them. "Oh, that exercise could help me master that section better", and so on. I don't believe in doing exercises for the sake of the exercises, I want a specific purpose with them.

I have not played the Fantasie Improptu but I have looked at the score some time, and from what I recall it is infamous for its combination of triplets in one hand against semiquavers in the other. A rather common pattern, which is very difficult to master at first. As it occurs in many other pieces as well, it is a good preparation to learn it. You could play the pattern with simple notes, or just tap it on your knees or with your feet ...

Next thing I want to say is that even those famous composers wrote easy little pieces that even an unexperienced pianist can learn. Every new composer is a new language, so to speak, so these easy pieces are also very good preparation for the harder ones. I learned some of Chopin's preludes early and they were not hard at all. They are also lovely to listen at. Even if you play for your own pleasure, you will most likely be able to perform from time to time - even if it is in a very unpretentious context. Maybe you and your friends enter a music store and want to try a few instruments out, maybe there are some old people or ill people who would love some minutes of entertainment, even if the pianist is not that "great". If you can give them a few Chopin preludes, they will be so happy and appreciate it so much more than a flawless performance on TV by some great name.