Why does music from the Classical period generally sound bland?

[ca88313]

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[visitor]

not sure, music from classical period to me is 3xceedingly attractive and I enjoy listening to it much more than a lot of pieces from other eras. how much have you studied it in terms of music history and theory, development of form and harmonic language and traditional techniques? that background can help, it did for me

[ca88313]

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[outin]

Because it is?

[zxiao9]

Well, the whole deal with the "Age of Enlightenment" is that it is, overall, a happy period. Life is much less shitty than it used to be (vs the middle ages or even the renaissance), scientific discoveries are made at a rapid speed, and the middle class is getting very wealth (again, compared to the past). The music reflects that with all the light-hearted melodies, major keys and the I-IV-V moves.

On the other hand, Baroque music especially by Bach and Handel is ungodly complicated, and, well, people can't understand that. The word "Baroque" itself means a deformed pearl, which is not a praise at all. It means that people think the music is too over the top, too complicated, and a bit unnecessary. A nice little early Haydn string quartet is far more charming, at least to their ears.

P.S. still, a lot of Mozart (e.g. the d minor and c minor piano concerto; Symphony No.40 and 41) and Haydn (Symphony in f-sharp minor, A major "Fire", C major fantasy) is anything but bland.

[mjames]

Because it is.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

With piano writing in particular, the instrument didn't really reach close to its full potential until around the 1830s, which is why the expressive devices available to a composer become far more varied and effective at that point. I must say that, in my personal opinion, I think the classical period is by far the poorest in terms of keyboard writing, and a step backwards from Scarlatti, Bach, Rameau and Couperin et al. It doesn't help when people insist on cultivating a studiedly genteel manner of performance: does anyone seriously think that's how the young Beethoven played?

[ca88313]

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[cfluke]

not sure, music from classical period to me is 3xceedingly attractive and I enjoy listening to it much more than a lot of pieces from other eras. how much have you studied it in terms of music history and theory, development of form and harmonic language and traditional techniques? that background can help, it did for me

Studying music theory and history made me LESS convinced of the merit of Classical works.

Especially when given composition assignments and I realized just how easy it was to compose in those styles.

[mjames]

With piano writing in particular, the instrument didn't really reach close to its full potential until around the 1830s, which is why the expressive devices available to a composer become far more varied and effective at that point. I must say that, in my personal opinion, I think the classical period is by far the poorest in terms of keyboard writing, and a step backwards from Scarlatti, Bach, Rameau and Couperin et al. It doesn't help when people insist on cultivating a studiedly genteel manner of performance: does anyone seriously think that's how the young Beethoven played?

"Only prodigies and geniuses are allowed to play boldly and with liberties" is something classical musicians have convinced themselves to believe in.

[clouseau]

It is true that classical when compared to baroque, seems much simpler and primitive. That doesn't mean it is inferior. Complexity is only one criterion, and btw why should more complex mean better? Bach's monumental works are admirable for their architecture, their complexity, and consistency. But equally admirable is is the reincarnation of ancient Greek/Roman ideals like simplicity, clarity, balance found in classical music. How would (or could) Mozart come up with something so simple yet so beautiful, like the 2nd movement of his Clarinet Concerto, if not living in the Classical era? Classical has definitely a lot of beauty, but you have to look beneath the surface.

Besides, classical is not only Mozart and Haydn but even if you focus on one composer like Mozart, you will find a lot of diversity. Compare for example the stereotypical Galant-style Mozart with his Requiem or his 25th Symphony.
Maybe you haven't heard much music from that era and only have a limited idea of what it is?
The same problem that I have with the impressionists. I simply don't get them, but to be honest I haven't really explored them either, just heard some random Debussy or Ravel and formed an opinion, based on that. Big mistake

[mjames]

This thread's about piano music dude. Quite a few of us don't care about clarinets and symphonies, so not the best possible defense for Mozart.

[ca88313]

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[cfluke]

How would (or could) Mozart come up with something so simple yet so beautiful, like the 2nd movement of his Clarinet Concerto,

Well, as they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If one does NOT find it beautiful, then the question simply becomes, "How could Mozart come up with something so simple...?" And, well, that's not a particularly difficult question!

[mjames]

Classical haters, which one would you pick:

Mozart's entire piano sonata selection or Chopin's larghetto from his 2nd concerto?

[ca88313]

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[fftransform]

This site has all the intellectual depth of a half-finished youtube comment.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

BAAAAHAHAHAAHAAAHHA

[mjames]

nils needs to ban transform

[clouseau]

This thread's about piano music dude. Quite a few of us don't care about clarinets and symphonies, so not the best possible defense for Mozart.

The same holds true for the piano literature, chief. Btw You better start caring about "clarinets and symphonies" if you want to call yourself a musician, as music is so much more than just black and white keys.

ca88313: You are right that probably no pure classical composer is as expressive as Rachmaninoff. But how could we compare Mozart and Rachmaninoff? Two totally different composers from different eras and totally different style. There is emotion in classical music but it's subtle and within the confines of structure, that is what I personally find intriguing.

[ca88313]

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[mjames]

The same holds true for the piano literature, chief. Btw You better start caring about "clarinets and symphonies" if you want to call yourself a musician, as music is so much more than just black and white keys.

god no

I'd rather play Hanon than listen to a clarinet concerto

[ca88313]

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[fftransform]

nils needs to ban transform

Excuse me?  Oh, are you embarrassed for having engaged with Mister Mozart-sucks-but-here's-a-MIDI-I-love?  Or more embarrassed that you can't even shoot down one of the stupidest statements ever made on this board?

[mjames]

Excuse me?  Oh, are you embarrassed for having engaged with Mister Mozart-sucks-but-here's-a-MIDI-I-love?  Or more embarrassed that you can't even shoot down one of the stupidest statements ever made on this board?

Damn that's a heavy comment, I'm just going to eat my banana instead.

[ca88313]

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[fftransform]

Damn that's a heavy comment, I'm just going to eat my banana instead.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=64740.msg685805#new

Ahaha it's nothing compared to how I used to be.  This is the CHILL version of me, believe it or not.  But yeah, this thread . . . yikes.

Are you referring to me as "Mister Mozart Sucks"? If you are then I can assure you that Mozart does not suck. I just think some of his music is bland.

I dunno what you mean by 'sucks,' then, but given the context those two things are exactly the same.  There's no confusion as to what you're trying to say.

You can clearly see that some people in this thread agree with me and some people do not agree with me on thinking of the Classical period as bland. That is called a discussion. It involves many viewpoints.

More pianists believe the earth is flat than agree with you, I'd be willing to wager.  Also, a five year old arguing with Stephen Hawking about how the sun works is not a discussion, it's a shame.  I'm not going to comment on how apt the analogy is, only that it's unclear that it isn't.

Saying that the music of Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert etc. doesn't evince emotion is the same as saying the paintings of Michelangelo, Van Gogh and Picasso don't because they don't use the techniques of the abstract expressionists, flinging and smearing paint.  Not to knock the abstract expressionists, since they're my favorite; the emotional content can often be immediate and visceral, but it is only one tool kit among many for making a huge impact.  It's you who is failing to understand where the emotion is, rather than a lack thereof in the works of these composers - probably in no small part because you're too busy basking in a hipsterdom of close-mindedness and seeking support for your listener's laziness, rather than addressing the holes in your comprehension.

[mjames]

I was just joking, you can actually get banned for being an a$$? Uh oh...

[clouseau]

Would you prefer to have a piano arrangement of symphonies instead?

I think an orchestral arrangement of Hanon is what he is _really_ looking for

[mjames]

The thought of that certainly reduced my life span by a decade.

[visitor]

well you need to see it in context so it's best experienced w the classical anime as well

[ca88313]

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[clouseau]

ca88313:

have a look at this video if you have time. It's Bernstein dismantling Mozart Symphony #40. Maybe that helps to understand the beauty of this music better

[klavieronin]

This site has all the intellectual depth of a half-finished youtube comment.

Make yourself at home. I'm sure you'll fit in just fine.

[klavieronin]

I think you have to be listening very carefully to appreciate Mozart/Hayden/Schubert. Also, the more familiar you are with the style the more you'll enjoy it. On the question of emotion in classical music, I don't think that is what composers were going for. Classical music is much more about form, thematic development, precision, clarity, harmony, etc. It a different aesthetic to Romantic or Baroque music.

That said, I personally prefer late romantic/20thC. music so I can see where the OP is coming from.

[ca88313]

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[mjames]

I think you have to be listening very carefully to appreciate Mozart/Hayden/Schubert. Also, the more familiar you are with the style the more you'll enjoy it. On the question of emotion in classical music, I don't think that is what composers were going for. Classical music is much more about form, thematic development, precision, clarity, harmony, etc. It a different aesthetic to Romantic or Baroque music.

That said, I personally prefer late romantic/20thC. music so I can see where the OP is coming from.

SCHUBERT ISNT CLASSICAL MAN what

[ca88313]

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[klavieronin]

SCHUBERT ISNT CLASSICAL MAN what

Not a big Schubert fan to be honest (apart from Symphony No.8 ) but to my ears he sounds more Classical than Romantic. The Romantic period for me starts with Chopin, Mendelssohn, Schumann, and Liszt.

[georgey]

I too find classical period PIANO music to be relatively boring in most cases.  I love ALL of Beethoven piano sonatas though (excluding the op. 49 written at a young age).  Beethoven’s first 2 piano concertos – also relatively boring to me.  

Can anyone say that Mozart’s 41st symphony last mvt is boring?  This is about as exciting as music gets, IMO.  The start of romantic period for symphonies is generally regarded as Beethoven’s 3rd I think.  I like Schubert very much, including his piano music and regard him to be mostly of the romantic period.  His 8th symphony is 100% romantic.  His 5th symphony is a gem but sounds close to late Mozart in places, but with that special Schubert lyricism.

[mjames]

Not a big Schubert fan to be honest (apart from Symphony No.8 ) but to my ears he sounds more Classical than Romantic. The Romantic period for me starts with Chopin, Mendelssohn, Schumann, and Liszt.

gtfo, schubert makes mendelssohn and schumann sound like Mozart

[klavieronin]

gtfo, schubert makes mendelssohn and schumann sound like Mozart

… Are we talking about the same people? There is no way Schubert's music is more romantic than Schumann and Mendelssohn. If you have examples please share. Maybe I just haven't heard enough Schubert.

[ca88313]

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[outin]

...It's you who is failing to understand where the emotion is, rather than a lack thereof in the works of these composers - probably in no small part because you're too busy basking in a hipsterdom of close-mindedness and seeking support for your listener's laziness, rather than addressing the holes in your comprehension.

What a ridiculous claim...I suggest you check the definition of emotion again. There cannot be any emotion in music, emotion happens in the listener/performer/composer (ie. A human being). Should it be spontanious in the listerner or should one work hard to create an emotional response in oneself  is a matter of opinion.

[visitor]

visitor is relieved by many people's definition of 'bland.' visitor decides it's okay, more blandness for him to consume.
visitor is loving this bland right now

Joseph Wölfl (December 24, 1773 - May 21, 1812)
Work: Piano Sonata in C-minor, Op.25 (1805)

Mov.I: Introduzione- Adagio 00:00
Mov.II: Fuga [Allegro] 01:53
Mov.III: Sonata - Allegro molto 04:15
Mov.IV: Adagio 11:35
Mov.V: Allegretto 17:55

Pianist: Jon Nakamatsu

[beethovenfan01]

… Are we talking about the same people? There is no way Schubert's music is more romantic than Schumann and Mendelssohn. If you have examples please share. Maybe I just haven't heard enough Schubert.

How about Wander Fantasy and Fantasy in F minor for 4 hands? And his Impromptu Op. 90 No. 3?

[themeandvariation]

Leaving fftransform's  attitude aside, the pointing out of midi renderings and to top it off with Andre Rieu is a clue of sorts… Also the generalizing of fault lines of where one period begins and another ends is a bland inquiry in itself - as there are elements (practically) of all styles in all styles.. There are even some '12-tone' glimmers in JS Bach (WTC1 B min. fugue)-  so… 'who's on first?"

[ca88313]

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[themeandvariation]

ca88313, Many clues showing in my comment...

In another thread you mention "It is much easier to play Medtner's music after learning how to play Bach's polyphonic pieces properly. "
So you play Bach?  On the piano? Or anything on the piano?  … yes, I'm calling you out. Given the nature of your many threads, i see platitudes hiding little, if any, personal involvement.
Bordering on trolling.  I invite you to prove me wrong. And i hope i am wrong.
Please post a recording Of You playing, of any piece, and i will duly apologize.. (and not a midi rendering, as you seem to post quite generously).

[ca88313]

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