Why does music from the Classical period generally sound bland?

[mjames]

How about Wander Fantasy and Fantasy in F minor for 4 hands? And his Impromptu Op. 90 No. 3?

That alone is far more revolutionary and romantic than anything in Mendelssohn's ouvre. Then there's the last 3 sonatas, last two symphonies, 15th string quartet, the mass in eflat, the string quintet, and the last two song cycles Winterreise and Schwanengesang.

fcking hell don't you dare put my boy's name next to mozart or bloody haydn ever again.

[themeandvariation]

Thanks
 though oddly enough, there is a midi rendering on youtube that matches yours, second for second of the Rach.. Just a lot of pedal drowning everything in yours, and w/o orchestral cheese.

Just a coincidence i suppose. 

 ?

I apologize, but also am not totally convinced, though willing to let it go.
Thank you.

[ca88313]

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[themeandvariation]

calling me out on, what?

Well, sure.. Remember, i was questioning whether you actually played, based on the your comments and threads. 

But since you ask, here is a piece 'Farewell Waltz' in homage to Chopin.

https://soundcloud.com/gregoriox88/farewell3take2

Here's one - A Fantasy on Bach's 'wachet auf'

https://soundcloud.com/gregoriox88/wachet-auf-3a2

Thank you for listening.  Hope you enjoy.

[klavieronin]

How about Wander Fantasy and Fantasy in F minor for 4 hands? And his Impromptu Op. 90 No. 3?

I see your point. I forgot about those pieces. Although I'd say it's debatable whether any of those pieces are more romantic than anything by Schumann or Mendelssohn. Compare the Wanderer Fantasy with Schumann Fantasy in C, or Schubert's Impromptu Op. 90 No.3 with Mendelssohn's Rondo Capriccioso in E, Op. 14 for example.

[The Wanderer Fantasy] is far more revolutionary and romantic than anything in Mendelssohn's ouvre. Then there's the last 3 sonatas, last two symphonies, 15th string quartet, the mass in eflat, the string quintet, and the last two song cycles Winterreise and Schwanengesang.

fcking hell don't you dare put my boy's name next to mozart or bloody haydn ever again.

Get a grip man. Like I said, I'm not a big Schubert fan so there is plenty of music from him I haven't heard. Still, there's no shame in being compared to Mozart or Haydn. If anything, putting him in that group is actually a compliment. Although, I'll admit now he doesn't really belong there (give me Mozart or Haydn over Schubert any day ).

[ca88313]

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[georgey]

I too find classical period PIANO music to be relatively boring in most cases.  I love ALL of Beethoven piano sonatas though (excluding the op. 49 written at a young age).  Beethoven’s first 2 piano concertos – also relatively boring to me.  

I stress the word "Relatively".  Also, I realize this is a weakness in my musical ear.  I view history as the judge of goodness.  History has judged Mozart piano to be great works.

I might as well mention my love for the later Mozart string quartets starting with the 6 quartets dedicated to Haydn.  Great stuff!!!

[outin]

I guess it could simply be the German - Austrian music tradition in general...few composers are really worth listening to imo. Even the German romantics are often bland. To each their own. Forget about the bs of undeveloped musical ear, if one has to develope the ear to have even remote interest in a piece of music then there's something wrong. When interested in music history/theory, then of course it all has it's place. But definitely overplayed. The reasons are numerous and it all feeds itself further, that's how things work in the classical world.

[georgey]

I don’t mind having the title “undeveloped ear”.  But I would say that ALL of us probably have underdeveloped ears, because who of us have musical interest that matches exactly how history has judged?  I might call it differences in musical taste, instead of underdeveloped ears.

[outin]

History is not much of a judge anyway. Those who think it is have an under developed brain

[rachmaninoff_forever]

SCHUBERT ISNT CLASSICAL MAN what

WHO CARES HE SUCKS

Idk why the OP is getting heat.

If he doesn't like classical music he doesn't like classical music.  I'm not gonna bash any of you guys for not knowing who NBA Youngboy is. 

[ca88313]

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[outin]

Predictability is one reason why I do not like classical, but it is also present in much of the romantic literature. Which is why 20th century music is often more to my taste...

[mjames]

WHO CARES HE SUCKS

Idk why the OP is getting heat.

If he doesn't like classical music he doesn't like classical music.  I'm not gonna bash any of you guys for not knowing who NBA Youngboy is. 

I'm lik two states away from giving you a wedgy.

[ca88313]

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[brogers70]

Lots of classical music sounds bland because it is pretty bland. The Classical aesthetic was a reaction to the turgid complexity and dramatic affects of Baroque music. It focused on beauty and simplicity - so, especially to people who've heard all the music that came after it sounds bland. But there's lots that isn't bland, if you take the restrained aesthetic as a given. There's plenty of genuine emotion in Mozart, even if he doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve.

[ca88313]

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[outin]

Are you referring to late Romantic, Impressionistic, twelve-tone, ragtime, jazz or popular music by mentioning the collective term "20th century music"?

I am just asking this because music produced during the 20th century (1900 to 1999) is incredibly diverse.

I was referring to 20th century "art music", which can be quite diverse indeed...I am not really a great fan of "pure" impressionism which can be quite bland as well. But I'd much rather listen to the Berg sonata than a Beethoven sonata...or late Scriabin or Shostakovich over Schubert or Schumann.

[visitor]

I was referring to 20th century "art music", which can be quite diverse indeed...I am not really a great fan of "pure" impressionism which can be quite bland as well. But I'd much rather listen to the Berg sonata than a Beethoven sonata...or late Scriabin or Shostakovich over Schubert or Schumann.

me tends to agree lots w you, not always but totally cool :-) , especially re {insert anything }  > [over] Bobby Schumann.

[visitor]

by op's defining of his/her preferred aesthetic, then I wonder if he/she applies same/said to 20th century neo classical, since many of the reasons for why not liked would check many of the same boxes for quite a number of the mid century neo classicists ...who composed with those ideals in mind even when mimicking other styles/composers or when conjuring other idioms (even if tongue in cheek)
Jean René Désiré Françaix (French: [fʁɑ̃sɛ]; 23 May 1912 in Le Mans – 25 September 1997 in Paris) was a French neoclassical composer, pianist, and orchestrator, known for his prolific output and vibrant style.

 La Promenade d'un Musicologue Eclectique (1987).

I. Hommage à Handel
II. Hommage à Frédéric Chopin [02:24]
III. Hommage à Domenico Scarlatti ("Couronné par Beethoven et par Mendelssohn, sous le regard complice de Debussy") [05:14] --OUTIN THIS ONE IS FOR YOU!!
IV. Hommage à Maurice Ravel [08:34]
V. Petit hommage à la Musique Contemporaine [12:09]
VI. Hommage à Adolphe Adam (de l'Institut) [14:24]

Martin Jones, pianoforte.

Variations sur un théme plaisant (1976).

Jean Françaix, pianoforte

[outin]

Jean René Désiré Françaix (French: [fʁɑ̃sɛ]; 23 May 1912 in Le Mans – 25 September 1997 in Paris) was a French neoclassical composer, pianist, and orchestrator, known for his prolific output and vibrant style.

 La Promenade d'un Musicologue Eclectique (1987).

I. Hommage à Handel
II. Hommage à Frédéric Chopin [02:24]
III. Hommage à Domenico Scarlatti ("Couronné par Beethoven et par Mendelssohn, sous le regard complice de Debussy") [05:14] --OUTIN THIS ONE IS FOR YOU!!
IV. Hommage à Maurice Ravel [08:34]
V. Petit hommage à la Musique Contemporaine [12:09]
VI. Hommage à Adolphe Adam (de l'Institut) [14:24]

Martin Jones, pianoforte.

Thanks
And in turn I challenge you to find Ernst Linko's op 12: Hommage a Domenico Scarlatti.

[marijn210999]

ca88313. You have clearly never listened to Haydn's String Quartets from Opus 17 on. Or to his symphonies nos. 45, 46, 52 and so on. Just listen to the first movement of his Op. 20/5 string quartet. I can't even remotely understand how you can say there is a lack of emotion there. And his music is full, but seriously full of unconventional harmonic progressions which makes it even more unique. Of course music by Chopin, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Grieg, Brahms was all much more emotional, but their starting point was very different. Remember figures like Haydn, Mozart, Stamitz, Clementi were all born during the dark, dark days in which the great composers like Bach died and there was nothing other to do then to invent a new style of music.

[georgey]

The greatest neo classical work IMO.  Stravinsky symphony in 3 movements.  Now, here is a symphony!

[cfluke]

ca88313. You have clearly never listened to Haydn's String Quartets from Opus 17 on. Or to his symphonies nos. 45, 46, 52 and so on. Just listen to the first movement of his Op. 20/5 string quartet. I can't even remotely understand how you can say there is a lack of emotion there. And his music is full, but seriously full of unconventional harmonic progressions which makes it even more unique. Of course music by Chopin, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Grieg, Brahms was all much more emotional, but their starting point was very different. Remember figures like Haydn, Mozart, Stamitz, Clementi were all born during the dark, dark days in which the great composers like Bach died and there was nothing other to do then to invent a new style of music.

I am listening. It is nice, no doubt.

But it feels quaint compared to the expressiveness of the Romantic era. It's like trying to write a dramatic novel but only using words that would be understandable to a 6-year-old. My question to you is whether you actually would consider this a work of merit if composed today, or even in the late 19th century.

It's kind of like listening to the "Surprise" symphony. Like, OK, maybe (?) it was surprising in 1791, but...there are countless more dramatic surprises in later works. When people say they "jump out of their chair" hearing it I wonder if they've listened to anything written later than 1820.

[klavieronin]

Forget about the bs of undeveloped musical ear, if one has to develope the ear to have even remote interest in a piece of music then there's something wrong.

Surely you aren't suggesting that music must be instantly likeable to be of any value. Have you never grown to love a piece of music that on first hearing didn't seem that impressive?

[ca88313]

.

[georgey]

In my opinion, 12-TET has destroyed Classical music. I am so ashamed of myself for calling it bland now because the tuning system was the only problem. Classical music is absolutely beautiful but now I KNOW its beauty can only be truly realised by playing it on a just-intoned or well-tempered instrument.

Well-tempered is the way to go.  Forget about 12-TET.

[georgey]

13-TET

[outin]

Surely you aren't suggesting that music must be instantly likeable to be of any value. Have you never grown to love a piece of music that on first hearing didn't seem that impressive?

Of course, but there has to be some level of INTEREST (not the same as like) for me to spend time with it. And so far many "classics" (especially the B sonatas) have got their fair share of my time and have not lost any of their blandness. Sometimes the pianist is so exquisite that I don't mind listening but the music really does not get any better from further listening.

[georgey]

And so far many "classics" (especially the B sonatas) have got their fair share of my time and have not lost any of their blandness.

B as in "Beethoven"?  I hope not!

[outin]

B as in "Beethoven"?  I hope not!

Yes. And why would you mind?

[outin]

ca88313:
Mozart's music is not so much bland but irritating. It's like a mosquito in the room. You can try to ignore it but it just gets worse until the only thought in your mind is to crush the bloody insect... there are a couple of exceptions of course as usual.

[mjames]

damn you sounding a lot like hitler....only difference is you'd rather burn manuscripts than jews..


that is some pure hatred lol

[outin]

damn you sounding a lot like hitler....only difference is you'd rather burn manuscripts than jews..

that is some pure hatred lol

Come up here in the summer and you'll become like hitler too

But no, I do not want to burn the music since some people enjoy it so much. I just want to avoid it

[thalbergmad]

Mostly, classical music sounds bland when it is played bland. To get the most out of it you have too see the score as an idea instead of an order. Regretfully, there are not many pianists that can do this.

If you play classical but think romantic, it is rarely bland.

Thal

[cuberdrift]

You gotta put yourself in their shoes. At that time there was science and stuff. People thought they knew everything, so music was composed that way.

There wasn't much more to explore because people thought they'd found out the "way" already and reveled in the beauty of not so much the imagination as reality itself.

[ca88313]

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[georgey]

Classical music is not bland. It is 12-TET that makes it bland. I have updated my original post with my solution for reversing this adverse effect of 12-TET.

Did the Classicists use well temperament or equal temperament?

I agree.  Well-tempered is the way to go.  Forget about 12-TET.  But I still find pre-Beethoven classical PIANO music to be relatively boring, even when played on many different well-tempered tunings. So in my case, it is not the tuning. What should I do?

[ca88313]

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[georgey]

My favourite well temperament is Bach/Lehman 1722. It contains 4 different perfect fifths. I think you should use this temperament on your piano. I am sure it can make any music, both old and new, sound good. I also think it is better than any other well temperament because it provides the most variety of tone colour.

You may be interested in these discussions that I had started on the Instruments section of Piano Street:

Explanation for why Bach/Lehman 1722 is my favourite well temperament accompanied with some interesting videos (not midis):

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=64719.0


Breakdown of the mathematics of Bach/Lehman 1722:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=64727.0


Have you changed your mind after viewing these discussions?

If you have not changed your mind then try listening to Classical music played on organs, harpsichords or any other keyboard instruments. You do not have to restrict yourself to the piano.

The only piece in these threads that are pre-Beethoven classical PIANO is Rondo alla Turca by Mozart.  I agree Bach/Lehman 1722 is best, but Rondo alla Turca still sounds relatively boring to me.

The mathematics of the tuning system is interesting but it does not help me like pre-Beethoven classical piano music more.  I have already read these threads.

I have heard a lot of Mozart piano music performed on harpsichord and clavichord with various well tempered tunings.  Still relatively boring. I can listen to Mozart organ music played on organ, but this is not pre-Beethoven classical PIANO music.

What else should I do?  Thanks.

[ca88313]

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[georgey]

My goodness, I have no more ideas.

If you do not like Classical music then that is that. If well temperaments make Classical music more interesting then how much more interesting will they make Romantic music?

But I do like classical music!!:  Mozart later string quartets starting with the 6 quartets dedicated to Haydn are all GEMS.  Later Mozart Symphonies - all GREAT.  The final mvt of his Jupiter symphony is as exciting as music gets.

I just find pre-Beethoven classical PIANO music to be relatively boring.  Oh, well.  I still like it, just not as much as other music.  Thanks anyway.  But I do agree with you:  Well-tempered is best.  Forget about 12-TET!  Did you listen to the 13-TET I posted here.  I do like this!!!!

[georgey]

13-TET

Sorry for showing this again.  I know this is off-topic a little.

I was considering taking up composing in my retirement, until I discovered this yesterday.

I know I can never top this.  This is fantastic!!  I could spend the next 20 years trying and not even come close.  The ending though could PERHAPS be improved.  I felt that final seconds are  a little cliché.  

But this is a masterpiece nonetheless.

[ca88313]

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[ca88313]

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[georgey]

If you do compose 13-tone music then I would love to hear your 13-tone chords!!!

I have already experimented with symmetrical 12-tone chords here:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=64631.0


It is never too early or too late to start composing. I have composed some music myself:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=64663.0

Some of this music would be good background music for video games perhaps.  Very interesting atonal chords that would serve as the basis for more extended compositions.  Keep up with your work on composition.

[ca88313]

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