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Topic: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness (Read 4236 times)

bernadette60614

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Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

on: April 30, 2018, 03:35:03 PM

I've begun lessons with a new teacher in preparation for the ABRSM performance track.

I will be playing a Bach 2 Part Invention (No. 9) and the Rondo from Beethoven's Opus 13.

My teacher's approach is very meticulous. I need to learn each hand perfectly, practice backwards, and make sure that my mind is fully engaged while I practice.

I find after 10 minutes, my head really wants to explode practicing the Bach. And practicing Beethoven slowly takes conscious effort.

Any encouraging thoughts would be appreciated (I didn't realize when I embarked on the ABRSM that preparation for a juried situation was quite different from preparing for a little evening performance in from of other recreational adult students...)

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themeandvariation

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Re: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

Reply #1 on: April 30, 2018, 03:55:09 PM

A meticulous approach to playing Bach is a very good thing, from the technical, and from the ear.
One develops more the ability to hear 'polyphonically' - and in that light,play with more deliberate control.
I think playing backwards can be a good idea - which is, with Bach, usually very musical as well - but also mitigates against hand memory - (where the ear can fall asleep) - . This exercise will keep the ear and the reading very alert.
Bach is not easy. What you now feel as intense resistance ('head want to explode') is the difficulty of growth..
As you persist with Bach, it does get easier, but can take awhile.. But you are also acquiring new skills that can be applied to All music..
Who you now resist may be your best friend in disguise - Bach. The benefits he offers towards musicianship are great - perhaps the greatest.
As Beethoven said, (with a play on words), "Bach is not a brook, but an ocean"..
True, dat.

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4'33"

keypeg

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Re: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

Reply #2 on: April 30, 2018, 05:42:22 PM

Quote from: bernadette60614 on April 30, 2018, 03:35:03 PM

I find after 10 minutes, my head really wants to explode practicing the Bach. And practicing Beethoven slowly takes conscious effort.

I learned something really important last year. Don't go past 10 minutes or even 10 minutes with this kind of thing. Work on a section and aspect for 5 minutes or less. Leave it. Come back to it later. Leave it. Come back to a different element of it. Leave it. Less effort for less time each time, more often, for greater results. Magical.

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bernadette60614

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Re: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

Reply #3 on: April 30, 2018, 08:03:01 PM

Thank you both.

I know I"m going to love this eventually....but it helps tremendously to hear from wiser students.

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Bob

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Re: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

Reply #4 on: May 01, 2018, 01:02:58 AM

Backwards? Are you doing that from end to beginning, both hands, or more like short segments to get the key feel in the hands?

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Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

keypeg

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Re: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

Reply #5 on: May 01, 2018, 01:18:44 AM

Backward is what I learned too.

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klavieronin

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Re: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

Reply #6 on: May 01, 2018, 02:42:57 AM

Bach can be tedious to learn but I always find him really fun to play once you have the piece in your fingers (so to speak). Personally I wouldn't recommend practicing only hands separately. In the beginning I would do mostly hands separate and small sections (1 or 2 bars max) hands together. Learning back to front I've found effective also.

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timothy42b

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Re: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

Reply #7 on: May 01, 2018, 11:56:56 AM

Quote from: keypeg on April 30, 2018, 05:42:22 PM

I learned something really important last year. Don't go past 10 minutes or even 10 minutes with this kind of thing.

Yes!

Efforts that demand total concentration like this can be rewarding, but if you push them past your concentration limit, you're doing more harm. Ten and done.

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Tim

bernadette60614

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Re: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

Reply #8 on: May 01, 2018, 12:24:39 PM

To answer a PP question: Yes, backwards...from the last measure working my way back.

I can see the logic of this. It forces me to really focus on the fingering, accuracy because I"m not anticipating the music.

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keypeg

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Re: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

Reply #9 on: May 01, 2018, 02:15:12 PM

Bernadette, the "backward" I learned got dubbed "pyramiding". You divide a longer piece into sections and you "pyramid" a section. Supposing that your section goes from m. 50-m.60. It might go like this:

m.60
m.59
m.59-60
m.58
m.58,59,60
m.57
m.57,58,59,60

(You can see the right side of a pyramid forming.)

You are moving into notes you have already practised, moving into the familiar. The movement into the familiar also lends a "confident, secure step further" (step as in what feet do). When people play, they often get more uncertain as they get further into the piece, which is also when they're getting tired. If you started at the end, then the further you get into the piece, the stronger you get, because the last measure is the most familiar.

adding:
You also don't want to do exactly "m.57" because folks can end up with a little pause between measures. So it might be "m.57 overlapping into 58" or "end of 56 bleeding into start of 58".

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timothy42b

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Re: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

Reply #10 on: May 01, 2018, 03:15:16 PM

I do this when I'm starting a new piece of music with my handbell choir.

Start at the end. m60, m59, m59 and m60.

Also, notice that measure 57 repeats to measure 12. So we need to m57-m12 multiple times. Then we probably have to do m56 to m58 multiple times to get used to taking the second ending.

The other thing I do with the harder measures is loop them. Play m60 and add a repeat sign in strict tempo, and continue playing that measure over and over until it solidifies. Do the same with 59. Then do it for 59-60. Sometimes you have to adjust for the phrase, it might start on beat 2 or 4, etc.

We don't attempt a complete run through until I'm pretty sure they're going to be successful.

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Tim

keypeg

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Re: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

Reply #11 on: May 01, 2018, 03:41:27 PM

Otoh, if you are a semi-experienced student, rather than a member in a handbell group, you may be able to analyze your music and alter the strategies. For example, my teacher does not expect me to be an absolute clone of his instructions, but rather, to take off on them -- i.e. "work intelligently".

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tenk

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Re: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

Reply #12 on: May 01, 2018, 05:59:52 PM

Quote from: themeandvariation on April 30, 2018, 03:55:09 PM

A meticulous approach to playing Bach is a very good thing, from the technical, and from the ear.
One develops more the ability to hear 'polyphonically' - and in that light,play with more deliberate control.
I think playing backwards can be a good idea - which is, with Bach, usually very musical as well - but also mitigates against hand memory - (where the ear can fall asleep) - . This exercise will keep the ear and the reading very alert.
Bach is not easy. What you now feel as intense resistance ('head want to explode') is the difficulty of growth..
As you persist with Bach, it does get easier, but can take awhile.. But you are also acquiring new skills that can be applied to All music..
Who you now resist may be your best friend in disguise - Bach. The benefits he offers towards musicianship are great - perhaps the greatest.
As Beethoven said, (with a play on words), "Bach is not a brook, but an ocean"..
True, dat.

Quoting Theme's whole post here because it is well-said and should be taken to heart. I'd like to add a few points as well:

1) When learning Bach, write the fingerings onto your sheet and play at least at forte, if not ff. This will prevent you from letting finger slips "slide" and forming bad habits or inaccuracies in your playing. I find this to be the best way of practicing the "deliberate control" that Theme mentioned.

2) When you're ready to add dynamics, sing each voice to yourself. Where are the breaths? When does it feel natural to crescendo or decrescendo? Allow this to help guide your phrasing. Write it on your music. Your teacher will help here too of course.

3) Listen to many interpretations. Record yourself and listen. Spend more time practicing the measures you hear yourself stumbling on the most in your playing.

Practicing Bach will do wonders for your development, but make sure you are enjoying the music as well

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outin

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Re: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

Reply #13 on: May 02, 2018, 03:49:00 AM

For me practicing truly backwards helps with learning tricky non-intuitive fingering patterns. So I really do play the notes of a pattern backwards. It probably works because I tend to rely too much on my auditory memory. For whole measures and phrases I often use the random method, go through all parts of a piece in random order. Might try the backwards too one of these days...

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bernadette60614

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Re: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

Reply #14 on: May 02, 2018, 08:11:23 PM

Way cool! (Can I say that in such illustrious company?)

I've played only in front of a friendly, noncritical audience of fellow adult students, and I noted under performance conditions that my notes seem to "slide" and I'm not truly speaking each note. I think FF will help with this immeasurably(could there be a pun in there?)

Also, do you practice each measure repeatedly? Or cycle between/among two-three measures?

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timothy42b

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Re: Practice questions: Why are Bach 2 Part Inventions so tedious/practice slowness

Reply #15 on: May 03, 2018, 02:22:23 PM

Quote from: bernadette60614 on May 02, 2018, 08:11:23 PM

?)

Also, do you practice each measure repeatedly? Or cycle between/among two-three measures?

If needed, yes. Not every measure, of course; some are easy. You wouldn't waste time doing the same number of repeats on those, it would be an example of

Quote

work ethic equals inefficient mediocrity.

But for measures that need it, yes, with another caveat. If a phrase or short segment went from beat 2 of one measure to beat 1 of the next, I would loop what made sense, not stop arbitrarily at a bar line. This looping in strict tempo is a powerful tool.

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Tim

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