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Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat" (Read 2523 times)

Offline mrcreosote

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Please try to ignore the dress, but @ 0:22 Lola Astanova changes her footing then comes off the seat.  The end of the piece is quite strong, but she stays glued to the seat.

Rubinstein uses the "split" footing throughout most of the Heroic, but does laps to both feet on the pedals at times.  And yes, he is lifting off the seat frequently.

I don't see the necessity for coming off the seat no matter how loud you wish to play.  The only physics I can see is possibly going beyond "arm" weight to "body" weight.  But BW doesn't make sense since the body, shoulders, and arms would be falling due to gravitational acceleration, and if the shoulder and elbows are pivots, the dropping of the elbows would actually reduce the effective forearm weight on the keys

Let's just say I don't understand the principle and would love to be schooled.

Oh, and have fun with the dress...




Offline Bob

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #1 on: May 06, 2018, 12:19:13 PM »
I think it's a bigger emotional oomph on the keyboard.  Something that a guitar smash or mic drop.  You can't do that too many times in a piece though.  Rubenstein I could buy, with that type of piece.  But only a limited amount of times during a piece.  If he's bouncing more, than it's more like a mannerrism. 

The lady I don't buy.  She's going in a different direction.  She's already got the sparling dress on.  The piece doesn't require an oomph, although I don't think that's the same type of oomph seat raise like that. 


There was another piece on here, buried in a post somewhere now, where the plays some kind of modern piano piece and ends up sitting on the keys or smashing the keys at the end.  Same idea.  More of an expression outlet than 'best physics-wise.' 


This looks like it's in line too.  Sit on the keys at the end of the piece.  It's flashy, dramatic, expression, fits the character of the piece.





There is always the possibility of adjusting your physical position in the seat for whatever reason.  Just move/adjust during the piece because it's less comfortable.  For the lady's performance, considering the dress, etc. it could be planned, could be something else out of character with the piece, etc.   I do see a different direction/effect with that time in the music and chair lift.  It does seem a bit off though, like she's a little more hyper/off than the character of the music.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline mrcreosote

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #2 on: May 06, 2018, 04:15:48 PM »
New thought:  coming off he bench to reposition laterally?

I've seen Horowitz come off and it's usually associated with some explosive power/loudness.

In sports it is common knowledge that power from the hands requires effort from the body and legs.  Maybe it is that simple.  But I sure don't see the need for it.  Rubinstein in his later years gave up the big arm weight drops to the easier whipping motion where the hands bounce high after the note(s) are struck.

And then if the only tension is located at the "root chakra" (which is virtually touching the seat), this might be a clue.

Offline Bob

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #3 on: May 06, 2018, 10:41:18 PM »
*Bob rewatches a bit of the first one... for science.*    ::)

I'm not quite buying it.  She's already got the dress, the sparkles... but do you notice the light by the head?  The sun really shines in like that?  Her head's moving around but the sun seems to shine in, almost like it was adding in as a special effect.  She's using the soft pedal too?  So she's purposely moving her left leg back for that.  And is it just me or she sitting slightly further back, probably because of the high heels?


*Bob wonders who is this anyway.*  There you go.

https://www.instagram.com/lolaastanova/?hl=en


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lola_Astanova

A prodigy though?  Looks more like high school/college....  I didn't watch these.  I'm just googling around.  Where are the prodigy/virtuoso pieces she's playing?
videos



This looks like she's trying to sell more of herself, being female, style.  I wonder if that would be a test... . Stick everyone in the same clothes, same environment, or maybe just use recordings to evaluate them. 


Haha....   :o  3:24...  Maybe that's just her mannerism.  Looks like she likes those moments.  Haha. 
::)  It's a "chair lift squeeze."  Haha.



Whoop... She did it again.  1:24
=87
She must stick her left foot up on the soft pedal (although she was using it in the other video) because of the dress.
Who are these videos targeted at? 
And how do a duet if the person is sitting back to back, facing away from you?
3:21  Another chair lift.   ;D  That's her thing.  Haha.   ::)
*Bob wonders if he can get some slow flying seagulls too for his next performance.*





More seriously, if that's her thing for the chair lift at those moments, then I guess it's as legit and ok as the more aggressive style I was originally thinking of.  It does fit the style of music and the whole thing she's going for I guess.  I just can't take it that seriously. 
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #4 on: May 06, 2018, 11:16:57 PM »
Please try to ignore the dress, but @ 0:22 Lola Astanova changes her footing then comes off the seat.  The end of the piece is quite strong, but she stays glued to the seat.

Rubinstein uses the "split" footing throughout most of the Heroic, but does laps to both feet on the pedals at times.  And yes, he is lifting off the seat frequently.

I don't see the necessity for coming off the seat no matter how loud you wish to play.  The only physics I can see is possibly going beyond "arm" weight to "body" weight.  But BW doesn't make sense since the body, shoulders, and arms would be falling due to gravitational acceleration, and if the shoulder and elbows are pivots, the dropping of the elbows would actually reduce the effective forearm weight on the keys

Let's just say I don't understand the principle and would love to be schooled.

Oh, and have fun with the dress...




Good for you "Bob."  I am often castigated for alerting, (for those who care,) regarding fake posts.  Accordingly, please look at her so-called Dress and her Hair.

Officially, in there are hundreds of posts regarding Yuja Wang's manner of Dress, this is simply just more of the same.

Hey, for all of you ladies and gentleman who have spent most of your entire daily Adult Live's practicing, (as a Pianist/Philosopher) I proffer the following:

1)  If you "CONTINUE" to remain silent, then don't even think of going back to your
"Advanced" students and try to "sell it," like you have hundreds of times before.

2)  Because, through this, and other websites, they are very well informed.  Further, they know that they can contact me "for free," by (PM) as always.

Finally, Lang Lang, (who will never play a Major Piece for orchestra again), and all of these so-called Asian Superstars, are nothing but "HYPE."

I am so happy that this posted.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #5 on: May 07, 2018, 12:38:16 PM »
I watched this one with the sound off, not completely sure it was going to be "Safe For Work."

It looks like a performance more, or at least equally, focused on the visual aspects. 

The seat is unusually far back.  However, that allows the spine to be in proper alignment regardless of the motion.  In particular, it avoids the usual hunched spine and forward bending head we see so commonly.  When we sit too close we curve the spine to get arms in alignment and see the music, and she does a great job of avoiding this. 
Tim

Online visitor

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #6 on: May 07, 2018, 01:10:16 PM »
I watched this one with the sound off, not completely sure it was going to be "Safe For Work."

It looks like a performance more, or at least equally, focused on the visual aspects.  

The seat is unusually far back.  However, that allows the spine to be in proper alignment regardless of the motion.  In particular, it avoids the usual hunched spine and forward bending head we see so commonly.  When we sit too close we curve the spine to get arms in alignment and see the music, and she does a great job of avoiding this.  
her training and skill set are solid, Rice U., i knew about here while I was in school, she went somewhere i had considered attending (but another program ultimately had more to offer me).
She's a Shepard kid which is a solid / awesome place to study, she was under John Kimura Parker and Robert Roux, both wonderful teachers and pianists/performers.
https://music.rice.edu/faculty/robert-roux
http://www.jonkimuraparker.com/bio/    http://news.kbs.co.kr/news/view.do?ncd=3215693



Offline timothy42b

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #7 on: May 07, 2018, 01:38:26 PM »
visitor,

thanks for that feedback, it's good to know this one is for real.  I was wondering a bit if there were some video editing involved.  Pianists spend so much time in the practice room, it's unusual to see someone even physically fit, let alone athletic. 

Is she perhaps unusually tall?  She seems large for that piano, and the seat is way back, yet her spine is straight, her forearms level, good wrist position, and she has good pedal position.  IMO of course. 
Tim

Offline xdjuicebox

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #8 on: May 08, 2018, 01:48:32 AM »
Good for you "Bob."  I am often castigated for alerting, (for those who care,) regarding fake posts.  Accordingly, please look at her so-called Dress and her Hair.

Officially, in there are hundreds of posts regarding Yuja Wang's manner of Dress, this is simply just more of the same.

Hey, for all of you ladies and gentleman who have spent most of your entire daily Adult Live's practicing, (as a Pianist/Philosopher) I proffer the following:

1)  If you "CONTINUE" to remain silent, then don't even think of going back to your
"Advanced" students and try to "sell it," like you have hundreds of times before.

2)  Because, through this, and other websites, they are very well informed.  Further, they know that they can contact me "for free," by (PM) as always.

Finally, Lang Lang, (who will never play a Major Piece for orchestra again), and all of these so-called Asian Superstars, are nothing but "HYPE."

I am so happy that this posted.

Are you saying that Asian musicians are just "HYPE?"
I am trying to become Franz Liszt. Trying. And failing.

Offline tenk

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #9 on: May 08, 2018, 04:21:51 PM »
What on earth are you babbling about?

I am often castigated for alerting, (for those who care,) regarding fake posts.
Because you provide zero evidence for your claims?

(as a Pianist/Philosopher)
Joke

1)  If you "CONTINUE" to remain silent, then don't even think of going back to your
"Advanced" students and try to "sell it," like you have hundreds of times before.
You're constantly shilling nonsense on this site. It's not even clear what you're talking about here.

2)  Because, through this, and other websites, they are very well informed.  Further, they know that they can contact me "for free," by (PM) as always.
I assume "for free" is in quotes because you don't start your sales pitch until they've PMed you.

Finally, Lang Lang, (who will never play a Major Piece for orchestra again),
Uhhhhh wrong? I'm not a fan of Lang Lang I'll admit, but this is just an idiotic claim.

and all of these so-called Asian Superstars, are nothing but "HYPE."
Who calls them this (other than you)? Surely you wouldn't refer to someone like Seong-jin Cho as just "hype"...

Offline Bob

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #10 on: May 10, 2018, 12:43:23 AM »
I found the video I was looking for, although I'm not quite sure why now.  It's not quite what I remembered.




Hikari Kiyama:composer Kentaro Noda:piano 《無実の投獄者2007》
99,291 views
ottaottaottadayo
Published on Sep 11, 2007


He does do the chair lift, and this is the intensity of a piece I could see it in.  But he goes even farther... There's a foot stamp.  6:09   Not the most intense thing double checking it.  He does a "stand" too just before that.  Technique-wise, that's not great.  For the piece...?  Who knows?



Ah, this was my post.  I wonder if I'm blurring pieces.  This is the piece/video I was thinking of I think.  I don't remember what the original post on here was about, maybe page turning.

There was another piece on here, buried in a post somewhere now, where the plays some kind of modern piano piece and ends up sitting on the keys or smashing the keys at the end.  Same idea.  More of an expression outlet than 'best physics-wise.' 
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #11 on: May 11, 2018, 07:17:48 PM »
I gave this another look.

(We had a safety meeting at work and discussed ergonomics.  I was tempted to show this one but exercised restraint.) 

Unless that camera angle is very strange, there is no way her knees fit under the piano keyboard. 
Tim

Offline Bob

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #12 on: May 11, 2018, 11:43:13 PM »
You could almost do a stick figure analysis on the first video.




She's losing the ability to put more weight on the keys.  Or just having that dis-ease of not being able to stand up.  If someone yanks the bench away, she's falling.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #13 on: May 12, 2018, 10:47:34 AM »
I watched a couple of other videos.

She frequently stands up briefly during a piece, it's part of her performance schtick.  So she's figured a way to stay in dynamic balance with an unusual posture. 
Tim

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #14 on: May 12, 2018, 11:28:15 AM »
I watched a couple of other videos.

She frequently stands up briefly during a piece, it's part of her performance schtick.  So she's figured a way to stay in dynamic balance with an unusual posture. 
my conclusion as well :)

Offline ted

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #15 on: May 13, 2018, 02:13:40 AM »
I can explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat" quite easily. My old piano bench had a loose leg and a broken leg. During a particularly fierce improvisation my moving weight caused a "collupsus of the buck promises and the phshute of Finnegan" as James Joyce put it. I suddenly found myself landing on the floor amid a pile of wood and music. Fortunately I landed on my backside and, despite my family's assertion that my brains are in that region, sustained no injury.

Sorry, couldn't resist this response.
"When I was young they said, 'Ah, wait until you are old, then you'll see.' Well, now I am old, and I have seen nothing." - Erik Satie

Offline immisk

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #16 on: May 16, 2018, 06:39:23 PM »
As someone who regularly plays piano in heels, I have a couple of explanations.

Heels give added length to legs, so it's necessary to push the seat further back. Unfortunately, they have yet to make arm extenders, so you end up leaning forward quite a bit. For this reason, I limit myself to 3 inch heels tops.

Wearing heels at the piano also causes your leg to cramp. If she's been sitting at the piano for a long time, or even if she just sat down, it's possible that she got a cramp in her ankle, so she pulled her foot back and lifted up to put some weight on it before extending.

Just a thought.
Liszt or Bust

Offline jinfiesto

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Re: Can someone explain the mechanics of "coming off the seat"
«Reply #17 on: September 27, 2018, 10:32:06 AM »
I've seen this recommended quite a lot to smaller women from pretty reputable sources. My teacher recommends it and she studied with a Schnabel student and some Lhevinne students I've spoken to recommend it as well.

The mechanics more or less are that sometimes you need to add muscular power if gravity+natural arm weight isn't getting you there and that's often easier to do from a position "over" the keys. For most average to large sized people that's almost never going to be the case that they can't get enough sound from gravity, but if you're small it's a reasonable concern.

In general, it's a pretty big no-no as it adds tension, but on a big chord here or there, I don't really see the harm.

I'm fairly large, so personally I don't ever need to unweight the bench, but I do sometimes kick my leg under the bench if I need to be more "over" the keys. I'm a tad overweight and have a hard time getting enough over the keys sometimes if I don't move my leg...