Using the metronome effectively

[bernadette60614]

My amazing new teacher is teaching me how to feel the pulse and stability of the pieces I'm practicing.

Consequently, she has me doing scales with the metronome, 80, 84, 88.

I find the metronome painful to use (which is probably why I need it so!) and I always seem to be behind or ahead of the beat.

Any recommendations or tips would be much appreciated--as always.

[themeandvariation]

Feel the pulse with your body, not your ear.. An inner 'rocking'...

[keypeg]

What "themeand.." said. Also, don't "follow" the metronome or you'll be behind.  "Be"the metronome.  Actually they way I learned it is you listen to the metronome, internalize it, then shut it off and play.  Check after a while.  I also learned to clap while counting.  Things like:
(clap)...(clap)....(clap)
1--2--3--1--2--3--1

(clap)....(clap)....(clap)
1----2----1----2----1

(clap).........(clap)..........(clap)
--1-2-3-4-5-6-1-2-3-4-5-6-1

(The 1's should like up under the "clap")

I'd record and listen to what I had done, and then go straight to the music (a part).

It took me forever to get any kind of internal pulse.   

[bernadette60614]

Thank you. That's very helpful.

Being an adult student is a constant lesson in humility for me!

[louispodesta]

Bernadette:

I, too, have a new coach, for my Concerto Repertoire.  And, she (with her DMA) is a devotee of "slow practice."  Also, she is a stickler for using the Metronome.

Parenthetically, one of the tenants of the Predicate associated with the Thesis of my Video is "Modified Tempos."  These were absolutely the norm during the 19th century.  This is elucidated in my "Truncated" response to Charles Blanchard.

["The purpose of this video is to bring the knowledge of original performance practice to the general public. . .  Today, this music is played in a strict Urtext fashion . . .  Dr. Peres Da Costa (2012 " Off the Record: Performing Practices in Romantic Piano Playing." extensively discusses the original performance practices of the breaking of the hands, arpeggiation, improvisation, and tempo modification.that never existed when the music was originally composed."]

For the record, the "Tick Tock" Triangular Wooden Pendulum Metronome was invented late in Beethoven's life.  Chopin, himself, did not assign Metronome markings to his Etudes until Franz Lizst had played them in their entirety.

The Metronome Tempo markings for the Beethoven Symphonies are nothing short of (I will be kind) Bizarre!  Very few Conductors will get up in public performance and use these "Super Speed" Tempo Markings.

Now then,  Bernadette, the hidden reason behind teachers insisting on using the Metronome has to due with a 93 year old Concert Pianist by the name of Ruth Slenczynska.

 https://www.wsj.com/articles/pianist-ruth-slenczynska-89-shows-no-signs-of-diminuendo-1414515528

For most of her adult teaching life (70 years), she has espoused using the Metronome at slow speeds, and then gradually increasing the tempo accordingly, for everything!

Quite frankly, in terms of Mozart, it may be of some help, however Mozart never had a Metronome!   Nevertheless, in terms of checking your tempo in a particular piece, it can be a significant and important tool.

Additionally, when I was at NTSU in 1971, every student had the electronic "Black Box" metronome.  I subsequently found out that they were more flawed than the triangular shapes wooden Pendulum Metronomes.

My late Uncle Leo De Leon taught me that any and all electronic measurement devices are only as good as the Technician who shows up regularly and re-calibrates them.  And trust me, that has never been done on an electronic or wooden mechanical metronome!

So, Bernadette, I use a Seiko "Quartz Metronome."  It takes a large battery, which comes with it.  And, for the record, it is the most accurate device I have ever used.

The point is, per my Video, the main approach to any piece of music should be, in my opinion, a well thought-out approach.  That means: if you continually use a Metronome, that is exactly what your playing "Your Playing" will sound like.

All the best.

[keypeg]

Louis, as usual I got lost in your post.

The core of Bernadette's question, as I understand it, actually has to do with "learning to feel pulse".  (Note that this has nothing to do with interpreting music.)  Her new teacher's device for learning to feel pulse is to have her play scales while having the metronome going.  Trying this method, Bernadette finds that she is either behind the metronome or ahead of it.

I have tried to respond, as a student, by exploring what I have been told to do (which does not involve using a metronome while playing.  That post is up there. 

You have told us that your present teacher has you using a metronome.  Is it for the purpose of learning to feel the pulse, or for interpretation?  How do you find using the metronome in the manner you have been told to use it?  Finally, do you have any thoughts about the initial quest, which is "learning to feel pulse"?  (We might also explore what "pulse" actually is.  This was not as straightforward as I thought when I first chased it.)

[bernadette60614]

I was thinking about running...how we each run with a natural gait, but if we want to become elite runners, we need to focus on the optimal gait.

Perhaps "the pulse" is the same.  We've all got it, consciously locating the optimal pulse is the discipline imparted by the metronome.

And, then, there is the whole matter of pulse/rhythm and counting...which is a whole new topic...I think.

[louispodesta]

Louis, as usual I got lost in your post.

The core of Bernadette's question, as I understand it, actually has to do with "learning to feel pulse".  (Note that this has nothing to do with interpreting music.)  Her new teacher's device for learning to feel pulse is to have her play scales while having the metronome going.  Trying this method, Bernadette finds that she is either behind the metronome or ahead of it.

I have tried to respond, as a student, by exploring what I have been told to do (which does not involve using a metronome while playing.  That post is up there. 

You have told us that your present teacher has you using a metronome.  Is it for the purpose of learning to feel the pulse, or for interpretation?  How do you find using the metronome in the manner you have been told to use it?  Finally, do you have any thoughts about the initial quest, which is "learning to feel pulse"?  (We might also explore what "pulse" actually is.  This was not as straightforward as I thought when I first chased it.)

1)  Your Heartbeat is a "Pulse."

2)  Your Brain's Nervous System is a "Pulse."

3)  Your Autonomic Nervous System, which encompasses your entire Exoskeleton System, is a "Pulse."

So, as I have stated before, using an (Accurate) Metronome is for the purpose of realizing a steady (but not rigid) tempo for learning "ANY" particular piece of music. 

After that, (having knowledge of these parameters) the final learning is up to the student learning the piece.  And, that is "ALWAYS" subject to any relearning that exists between student and teacher.

Then, you find your pianistic "Pulse."

After that, if you even care, then you might want to examine through my suggested Recordings exactly how the Composer/Pianists (who wrote this music) actually played it.
 

[keypeg]

Thank you - that answers my question and might be helpful to Bernadette.  The "heartbeat" idea is one that was given to me by a teacher a number of years ago, and I found it quite helpful at the time.

Since your video has been up for quite a number of years, I've had occasion to watch it.  The teacher I study with does indeed explore what has happened historically with performance.  It is a fascinating subject.

[pianoplunker]

My amazing new teacher is teaching me how to feel the pulse and stability of the pieces I'm practicing.

Consequently, she has me doing scales with the metronome, 80, 84, 88.

I find the metronome painful to use (which is probably why I need it so!) and I always seem to be behind or ahead of the beat.

Any recommendations or tips would be much appreciated--as always.

I dont think the metronome is about the tempo or having a "pulse"  although I agree one should be able to play to the pulse of the music without metronomic assistance. It makes a great reference if you are not sure how fast the piece should be played. To me the metronome is a tool for parts that use different timings such as 8th note triplets over 4/4 8th notes  . All that said, I have used the metronome to pracitce scales but instead of just increasing the tempo of the metronome, I first do one octave up and back quarter notes ( each click being a quarter note), then two octaves of eighth notes ( its twice as fast ). Then triplets to each click for three octaves. Then 16th notes for 4 octaves.  All without changing the tempo of the metronome. 

[louispodesta]

Thank you - that answers my question and might be helpful to Bernadette.  The "heartbeat" idea is one that was given to me by a teacher a number of years ago, and I found it quite helpful at the time.

Since your video has been up for quite a number of years, I've had occasion to watch it.  The teacher I study with does indeed explore what has happened historically with performance.  It is a fascinating subject.

Thank you for your kind words.  Accordingly, F .Y.I.:

For those who really care, and that means the 9,000 views it has received to date, I suggest that you read my detailed reply to Charles Blanchard's post.  That means that my very short video is a truncated version of my actual Predicate.

Original Practice, including the rhythmic aspect, is a very important (but not only) aspect of learning "Any" piece of music.

[louispodesta]

But, then again, most if not all of you will not read my prior detailed response (which encompasses the entirety of my Predicate).

However, if you are ready to learn how the Great Composer Pianist's Music/Compositions were originally played, then you may access this video and its referenced associated reply to a comment.

Thank you.

[keypeg]

But, then again, most if not all of you will not read my prior detailed response (which encompasses the entirety of my Predicate).

I looked at the link, and found it was the same video I've seen in very link over the years, and the response itself was written a year ago, at which time I had read it.  The reason I did not respond is that it is an entirely different topic, one which you have announced many times, and it would cause this topic to digress.  The question of pulse and related question of metronome are both important ones for learners at earlier stages, or learners who were given a less solid foundation - which was also my case originally.  I'd like to stay on topic, in the topic.

[louispodesta]

I looked at the link, and found it was the same video I've seen in very link over the years, and the response itself was written a year ago, at which time I had read it.  The reason I did not respond is that it is an entirely different topic, one which you have announced many times, and it would cause this topic to digress.  The question of pulse and related question of metronome are both important ones for learners at earlier stages, or learners who were given a less solid foundation - which was also my case originally.  I'd like to stay on topic, in the topic.

Here it comes:

1) One of my coaches is Dr. David Frego, who is the Chair of Music and Dance at the University of Texas at San Antonio.

2)  He is considered, per his Lecture/Travel Schedule to be one of the World's experts in Dalcroze Eurhythmics.  Dalcroze is a Centuries Old methodology associated with teaching musicians of all ages, the concept of rhythm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalcroze_Eurhythmics

Therefore, I am not akin to being given so-called lectures about a wooden box or an inaccurate electronic plastic device being utilized to be an effective method for teaching "ANY" musician the concept of rhythm.  And, this is regardless of their age or stage of development.

[tenk]

I looked at the link, and found it was the same video I've seen in very link over the years, and the response itself was written a year ago, at which time I had read it.  The reason I did not respond is that it is an entirely different topic, one which you have announced many times, and it would cause this topic to digress.  The question of pulse and related question of metronome are both important ones for learners at earlier stages, or learners who were given a less solid foundation - which was also my case originally.  I'd like to stay on topic, in the topic.

Did you really think that a YouTube link posted by Louis would be anything BUT his rolling chords video? He's been spamming the forums with that crap for years, and rarely does it have anything to do with the OP, much like his responses in general.

Here it comes:

1) One of my coaches is Dr. David Frego, who is the Chair of Music and Dance at the University of Texas at San Antonio.

2)  He is considered, per his Lecture/Travel Schedule to be one of the World's experts in Dalcroze Eurhythmics.  Dalcroze is a Centuries Old methodology associated with teaching musicians of all ages, the concept of rhythm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalcroze_Eurhythmics

Therefore, I am not akin to being given so-called lectures about a wooden box or an inaccurate electronic plastic device being utilized to be an effective method for teaching "ANY" musician the concept of rhythm.  And, this is regardless of their age or stage of development.

Oh yeah? Did this help you sight read those 47 piano concertos you claimed to sight read?

[keypeg]

Therefore, I am not akin to being given so-called lectures about a wooden box or an inaccurate electronic plastic device being utilized to be an effective method for teaching "ANY" musician the concept of rhythm. 

I have no idea what you're talking about.  The OP asked about pulse and metronomes, so why would anyone be telling you about it?  I'm familiar with Eurythmics.  Perhaps there is something in there that you might suggest to the OP to help her with her question.

The teacher I study with does not recommend playing along with the metronome.  But the OP's teacher does.  I focused on pulse, because that is a part I needed to acquire a few years ago.

My first introduction to Eurythmics was while observing classes in a Waldorf school, these schools having been founded by Rudolf Steiner and I was impressed with just about everything happening there.  At the time I was exploring school choices for my young children, after the local school sort of imploded.

[progman]

One thing that seemed to make it easier for me is having a metronome that is pretty loud and has a different sound for beat 1, one of the big advantages of using a digital piano. I switched to an acoustic pretty fast and bought one of those portable metronomes and it is much quieter even on max volume - which could be more difficult to follow. As i mentioned in another post, i am mainly counting now - but I understand there are places where a metronome can be useful in a practice process. 

[zebra555]

On this topic, I’d be interested in information and views on whether there are ‘talking’ metronomes.  It strikes me that as students tend to be taught to count when playing, that a metronome that does the same rather than clicking would be more helpful for beginners. I can’t find one in music shops and wonder whether they exist? Does anyone know if they are available?

[dogperson]

Zebra, the Boss DB-90 is a talking metronome.   I have not used it personally but I have seen it recommended 

https://www.boss.info/us/products/db-90/

[zebra555]

Thank you - that’s just what I’m after.

[j_tour]

I love the metronome -- my Wittner "Super Mini" fits in a pants pocket, and I find it's great tool for practicing away from the keyboard.

Yeah, I know there's apps and whatever, but I like the analog — I still wear an analog wristwatch with a slide-rule bezel.

I think it's much harder to learn to play with a click — IME the ideal is to be playing so that you don't actually hear the metronome. 

IOW, you're right "on" the beat.