Chopin Op.10 No.1 For Small Hands

[adodd81802]

I've regularly seen the debate between those claiming that if you cannot reach a 10th or more comfortably you may struggle to play this piece.

Here is a lady with small hands playing it with alternative fingering incorporating some help from her left hand. What do you think?

Some questions I'd be interested in putting out for discussion.

1. Do we think Chopin would have approved?
2. Do we consider this performance as admirable as a performance that plays the way the score is indicated?
3. Generally, how far could we take this concept of utilising the left hand (or right hand) to make passages easier if we can do so without sacrificing sound?
4. Do you consider it "cheating"?

[outin]

1) I could not care less whether Chopin approved or not...he was a rather opinionated guy who wasn't always right...and now he is even dead
2) Totally irrelevant...unless we want to admire someone for his physical qualities (having larger hands)
3) Since I could not play half the pieces I do at all without redistributing notes I would say as far as we can when needed. And generally it is NOT easier, but makes the fingering and voicing more complicated and less intuitive, so usually requires MORE skill.
4) Cheating is to leave out notes.

[visitor]

as alicia de la Rocha once said,  more or less ...you figure out how. you simply must.
 I use alternate differing fingers and redistribute parts between the hands all the time . my teacher has small ha da and is a wizard at this and she helps me figure out how tons, I'm slowly getting a knack for it. no big dealx preferred actually , you do whatever is needed to get. through and provide a good performance so long as it's not stupid and opens you to injury. it's all good.

[visitor]

1) I could not care less whether Chopin approved or not...he was a rather opinionated guy who wasn't always right...and now he is even dead
2) Totally irrelevant...unless we want to admire someone for his physical qualities (having larger hands)
3) Since I could not play half the pieces I do at all without redistributing notes I would say as far as we can when needed. And generally it is NOT easier, but makes the fingering and voicing more complicated and less intuitive, so usually requires MORE skill.
4) Cheating is to leave out notes.

you are correct there is more finesse and exerpience and relearning how to understand how the notes are printed on page to make it work, it's more work but is needed work nonetheless for those of us w less than Nosferatu appendages

*I look funny but at least am glad Fred approves of my fingering. something I suppose

[outin]

you are correct there is more finesse and exerpiende and relearning how to u dersrand how the notes are printed on page to make it work, it's more work but is needed work nonetheless for those of us w less than Nosferateu appendages

An some of us can even masterfully redistribute the alphabets

[visitor]

An some of us can even masterfully redistribute the alphabets

I cant take all the credit, autocorrect helps. I hate the technology it constantly changes words I type into gibberish , I'll go back and correct....lol

[dogperson]

 I take occasional lessons from a former  concert pianist who is a strong Proponent of altering hands even when you do not need to do so because  of hand size.  For instance, In sections of the pieces that have left-handed arpeggiopos played alone, he believes in playing them alternating hands, even if not written that way. His thought is:  Why do  you work so hard to use wrist rotation to make it seamless when you can make it easy?   I am not totally convinced that it looks OK, because unlike finger redistribution, It is visually obvious

[keypeg]

I've regularly seen the debate between those claiming that if you cannot reach a 10th or more comfortably you may struggle to play this piece.

I'm inclined to think that you are starting with a wrong premise, namely that the piece is to be played with an outstretched hand which can reach a tenth, because there are tenths.  There are ways of moving the hands (arms etc. - the "apparatus") for getting from note to note.  Chopin even told his students something like that they'd have to unlearn whatever it is they learned to play arpeggios.

My teacher used this etude to help me break through the rather narrow-frameworky way of playing that I had - not aiming to go at tempo or playing it in final form, but as a learning device - and the range of motions and possibilities of motions greatly expanded for me.  If you are constantly stretching your hand in this piece I think it would cause a strain, even if you do have a large hand.

[adodd81802]

I would like to clarify that I do not share the opinion either way that it is big hands that makes this piece 'playable'.

You could rightly argue that if you're using hand-size as an argument to playing this piece, you already don't know the technique involved, which is the facilitation of the wrist and rotation to enable your hands to cover distances they couldn't cover with a stretch and reach motion.

However I thought it would be a nice point to highlight that it is clear here that hand size is not what playing this piece is about, and even further, if you have particularly small hands, with some thought, this piece is still not out of your ability.

Compositions by Rachmaninoff however...

[georgey]

1. Do we think Chopin would have approved?
2. Do we consider this performance as admirable as a performance that plays the way the score is indicated?
3. Generally, how far could we take this concept of utilising the left hand (or right hand) to make passages easier if we can do so without sacrificing sound?
4. Do you consider it "cheating"?

Answering for myself:

1) Maybe
2) I don't think anything in the score explicitly says you can't play it this way.
3) As far as you want
4) No

[outin]

Compositions by Rachmaninoff however...

Doesn't seem bother some pianists with fairly small hands either...

[georgey]

If this was a required piece in a piano competition, should points be deducted for playing it this way?  Should the contestant be disqualified?

[adodd81802]

Good question.

[pianoville]

The people who still believe you need a big hand to play this piece has definitely misunderstood the point of it.

[georgey]

Answering for myself:

1) Maybe
2) I don't think anything in the score explicitly says you can't play it this way.
3) As far as you want
4) No

3. Generally, how far could we take this concept of utilising the left hand (or right hand) to make passages easier if we can do so without sacrificing sound?

Q: On Addod’s 3rd item here:  What if the player is doing goofy fingerings that sound nice but are done because the player does not work to develop certain techniques that would allow him/her to play with conventional fingerings?

A:  I would say that is up to the player.  If his goals are to be able to play certain pieces just for fun, then this is fine.  If his goal is to be a professional pianist, that is another matter.  In the case of the pianist here playing the Op 10 #1, I would want to hear that player’s thoughts for playing it the way she does.

[visitor]

murphys war laws apply to piano
specifically,  it looks stupid , but it works,  then it's not stupid
ie

[georgey]

3. Generally, how far could we take this concept of utilising the left hand (or right hand) to make passages easier if we can do so without sacrificing sound?

Q: On Addod’s 3rd item here:  What if the player is doing goofy fingerings that sound nice but are done because the player does not work to develop certain techniques that would allow him/her to play with conventional fingerings?

A:  I would say that is up to the player.  If his goals are to be able to play certain pieces just for fun, then this is fine.  If his goal is to be a professional pianist, that is another matter.  In the case of the pianist here playing the Op 10 #1, I would want to hear that player’s thoughts for playing it the way she does.

Q:  Thank you.  Is it possible that small hand size can make pieces hard to play or even unplayable, even with proper technique?

A: Yes.  Often it is just a matter of technique.  But let's look at an extreme case.  Someone that can only span a 4th on the piano, perhaps a child.  Can someone with this had size be expected to play Chopin Op. 10 #1 on a regular sized piano?  Also comparing 2 people, 1 that can span only an octave and the other that can span a 10th.  The 2nd person has 9/7 - 1 = 28.6% wider hands.  Have the 2nd person play on a specially designed piano that has keys that are 28.6% wider (and everything proportionally larger).  Then we will discuss this.

[georgey]

Q:  Thank you.  Is it possible that small hand size can make pieces hard to play or even unplayable, even with proper technique?

A: Yes.  Often it is just a matter of technique.  But let's look at an extreme case.  Someone that can only span a 4th on the piano, perhaps a child.  Can someone with this had size be expected to play Chopin Op. 10 #1 on a regular sized piano?  Also comparing 2 people, 1 that can span only an octave and the other that can span a 10th.  The 2nd person has 9/7 - 1 = 28.6% larger hands.  Have the 2nd person play on a specially designed piano that has keys that are 28.6% larger.  Then we will discuss this.

Q:  Thank you.  This piano will not be built, you understand.  But I get your point.

[mjames]

If this was a required piece in a piano competition, should points be deducted for playing it this way?  Should the contestant be disqualified?

Would you deduct points?

and lol at stretching hands for arperggios

[visitor]

there are pieces when even as an adult, if the hand span is not there, there are no technique modifiers that will over come it, specifically Percy Grainger's Blithe Bells comes to mind, the hand w melody simply has to comfortable move around and play 10th interval in the hand as it's the melody, the other hand is busy elsewhere and too far from it for a redistribution, and rolling it or a quick  stagger sounds awful.

too bad too, it's a great work, but very limited number of people have the factory installed hardware to pony up to it. I need to have my teacher look at this to see if she sees something i'm missing in my assessment of the impossoburu - ness of work for me.

[pianoplunker]

I've regularly seen the debate between those claiming that if you cannot reach a 10th or more comfortably you may struggle to play this piece.

Here is a lady with small hands playing it with alternative fingering incorporating some help from her left hand. What do you think?

I think Chopin would have said "I am glad you figured out a way to accomplish the piece, but I really intended it as an exercise for the right hand. Why not go ahead and improve your right hand  to do large arpeggios ? And please go easy on the pedal. Thanks "

[georgey]

Would you deduct points?

and lol at stretching hands for arperggios

Holy c*w!  No deductions here!!

[_piano_angel]

I guess it's a nice way to overcome the difficulties in the etude but honestly it kind of erases the purpose of it at the same time
And by the way you don't really need large hands to play this etude, the purpose of it is as far as I know wrist rotation, so I'm sure it can be done with smaller hands. Also I've played it sometime ago and can only really reach a ninth, so maybe try your best first before finding ways to make it easier

[keypeg]

However I thought it would be a nice point to highlight that it is clear here that hand size is not what playing this piece is about, and even further, if you have particularly small hands, with some thought, this piece is still not out of your ability.

I was not aware that there was any thought that hand size was what the piece was about.  Only that since you asked about it, perhaps you were trying to learn the piece and were worried about this.