Polonaise in A-flat major, Op. 53 "Heroic Polonaise"

[tonytwo]

Greetings. I'm currently a rising Sophmore at a high school. After practicing for 3 months, I made the recording of one of the Chopinish pieces, Heroic Polonaise. Please feel free to leave some comments.
Link:

[georgey]

I wish the recording quality was better, the piano was in better tune and video could be provided. This piece needs a little polishing.  Having said that: the performance here is almost unbelievable for an unknown high- schooler performing live.  You get a great Chopin polonaise sound on one of Chopin’s finest works.  Maybe work on the crescendo in the E major octave section and add more sustain pedal once the Doppler effect is reached (inside joke).  Congratulations!

EDIT:  I just read your post.  You have been playing this piece for only 3 months??  Now I take back what I said.  I will need video proof that you played this and will assume you did not until proven otherwise.  I hope you can prove me wrong.

Edit 2: Something is fishy here.  I look forward to other opinions.

[tonytwo]

Hi, thank you for all your kind words. This was not a live performance but a recording I made at my school's theatre with my iPhone (I'm really poor lol). I used the app Recording and unfortunately did not have the video. But I'll try to take the video in the future!

[tonytwo]

Another thing, to answer your question, yes I did only practice for 3 months.

[georgey]

Another thing, to answer your question, yes I did only practice for 3 months.

Nice thing is that you should show significant improvement in the next 3 months if you have only worked on this for 3 months.  I look forward to hearing your polished performance on a nicely tuned, quality instrument with quality audio and video support!!!

[tonytwo]

Need more comments!

[visitor]

Need more comments!

needs work.

[tonytwo]

For what part?

[visitor]

For what part?

slow the whole thing down, work on control, emphasis on harmonically tense areas, better contrast in fore vs background, overall, look for placing where you can be more expressive w pacing, bigger difference in forte vs piano, etc. right now it's just kinda of, ok you have most of the notes and basic rhythms , now what.

[georgey]

I don’t play piano.  Others here will judge playing having stated that everything Chopin wrote that lasts over 3 minutes is not good?!?!?  Etc, etc.  I wish more would weigh in on this.  Ronde around??

My main concern is the sound quality of your recording.  I feel that I can’t hear all that is going on.  Others maybe can with the current recording.  My opinion stands, though having heard this 2 times, maybe to later change after hearing better sound recording:  For a sophomore highschooler,  I think you play this piece unbelievably well after 3 months.  For the most part, you have a great Chopin polonaise sound.  There are areas that you will polish up.  Can't do a great crescendo unless you start very soft, etc.  Please post again with better sound.

Edit:  Your selected tempo makes this piece exciting.  Maybe just the very beginning runs could be slowed down a little.

[visitor]

... Others here will judge playing having stated that everything Chopin wrote that lasts over 3 minutes is not good?!?!?  Etc, etc.  I wish more would weigh in on this.  Ronde around??

my way around this is simple, low tech, but works, if a said piece is say 6 minutes, i just listen to it as 3 2 minute chunks or 2 3 minute chunks, maybe part if it , take a break, drank a coffee, come back, play another 3 minutes. :-)

[georgey]

my way around this is simple, low tech, but works, if a said piece is say 6 minutes, i just listen to it as 3 2 minute chunks or 2 3 minute chunks, maybe part if it , take a break, drank a coffee, come back, play another 3 minutes. :-)

I'm convinced!   

[tonytwo]

Thanks for your all’s suggestions!

[mjames]

Your playing is fantastic buddy. Despite the quality it's still easy to hear all the nuances in your playing, I love how you shift from being so graceful and majestic to taking 'vulgar' takes, especially on the lower registers. In general your playing is energetic, youthful, and risky - I love it. You also have a great feel for the "polonaise rhythm." Your phrasing is mostly on point but sometimes you lose a bit of your concentration but that's okay, 'mature' interpretations come with time and experience. For now the playing definitely suits you for the stage you're at.

You should know that this an incredible accomplishment, the work is difficult and the fact that you got through it all means a lot! Feel proud, man!

[georgey]

Your playing is fantastic buddy. Despite the quality it's still easy to hear all the nuances in your playing, I love how you shift from being so graceful and majestic to taking 'vulgar' takes, especially on the lower registers. In general your playing is energetic, youthful, and risky - I love it. You also have a great feel for the "polonaise rhythm." Your phrasing is mostly on point but sometimes you lose a bit of your concentration but that's okay, 'mature' interpretations come with time and experience. For now the playing definitely suits you for the stage you're at.

You should know that this an incredible accomplishment, the work is difficult and the fact that you got through it all means a lot! Feel proud, man!

That's what I call a good review!  I was hoping you would chime in.   

[tonytwo]

Thanks for your kind words Mjames!

[furiouzpianist]

It sounds really stylish!!
You handled the octave parts really well too!

I’d like to see some vids sometime..

[beethovenfan01]

I like it. I love the dance feel you have going, and the accuracy is very good. S

It does seem a little flippant, though. A little humor and vulgarity is fine in a piece like this, but remember that this is Romantic music, not 20th century. Everything still had an element of elegance then--the Heroic Polonaise, at least in my mind, is the epic tale of a warrior who has gone to valiantly war for his family, his friends, his people, his culture, his country, against an insidious enemy who threatens to destroy everything he holds dear. This is at the center of Chopin's thought in his Polonaises, since he was physically unable to join the army and fight for Poland himself.

I think a little more control and restraint, a little more legato and measured forte (and mezzo-forte) would increase the drama by a whole lot. The few places where you do bring down are like a breath of fresh air. I recommend closely listening especially to Rubenstein's version of this. He finds the perfect balance between wit, passion, and elegance.

[tonytwo]

Thanks for the suggestions ! I’ll take notes!

[visitor]

hi tonytwo I listened to spots again several times over past couple days and though you've put in good work so I understand where the praise comes from I feel you were asking for how to take this from pretty good to good to really good
little details are what at least for these ears keeps the piece interesting
right from the beggining the ending chord after the chromatic lead up in first couple measures,  have you explored allowing it to resonate more? it sounds abruptly chopped , its distracting , just a hair more pedal, it is resolving the tension the run built up before we get it again , when you chop that chord, it isn't quite as effective as when you let them ring just a bit more
I really really like this kid's general approach to Chopin I find if I cant find a Michel Block performance I seek his out,  or I look for it first if a modern one is wanted
just listen to the opening  [then take time to study his entire performance it's really fantastic ]how he treats things , this is along the level of detail work I think would help your performance  wratchet up the interest and polish factor

[dogperson]

[quote author=visitor link=topic=65099.msg688852#msg688852 date=1528976963
little details are what at least for these ears keeps the piece interesting .....

I really really like this kid's general approach to Chopin I find if I cant find a Michel Block performance I seek his out,  or I look for it first if a modern one is wanted
just listen to the opening  [then take time to study his entire performance it's really fantastic ]how he treats things , this is along the level of detail work I think would help your performance  wratchet up the interest and polish factor
.....
[/quote]
Thanks visitor for posting the link and your comments.   The interest in the polish factor are what separate a good performance from a memorable one. 

You’re right,  this is an outstanding performance.  I have now subscribed to his YouTube channel

[tonytwo]

Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll work on the beginning part

[georgey]

right from the beggining the ending chord after the chromatic lead up in first couple measures,  have you explored allowing it to resonate more? it sounds abruptly chopped , its distracting ,

This is the finest performance I have heard of this work!!!  Note the E major octave section starts off very softly.  What a crescendo!  He uses 2 hands to start off, which I think helps.  WHAT A GLORIOUS CHOPIN POLONAISE SOUND THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE PIECE!!

Visitor says: right from the beginning the ending chord after the chromatic lead up in first couple measures,  have you explored allowing it to resonate more?

This is what caught my ear at the very beginning:  very percussive chords with perhaps over-fast runs.  Add to this the poor tuning of the piano and poor sound quality and this sounded at the very beginning like it was going to be a goofy performance.  But it wasn’t!!!

When I said the performance was unbelievable for a freshman highschooler, this is about as high of a compliment I can give.  Keep up with your GREAT work and repost!!!

[georgey]

You will see comments fall in 2 types.  A high school high jumper just jumped 7’ 5”.  Half will say:  WOW! 7’ 5”!!  How did you jump that high?? I can’t believe it!  The other half will say:  Let’s see if you can jump 7’ 6”.  Look at this guy jump 7’ 11”, etc.  Then when you finally jump 7’11”, half will say WOW and half will say – Let’s see you Jump 8 feet.  It's all good.

[beethovenfan01]

You will see comments fall in 2 types.  A high school high jumper just jumped 7’ 5”.  Half will say:  WOW! 7’ 5”!!  How did you jump that high?? I can’t believe it!  The other half will say:  Let’s see if you can jump 7’ 6”.  Look at this guy jump 7’ 11”, etc.  Then when you finally jump 7’11”, half will say WOW and half will say – Let’s see you Jump 8 feet.  It's all good.

Isn't that the point of constructive criticism? To help someone achieve more of their potential?

[georgey]

Isn't that the point of constructive criticism? To help someone achieve more of their potential?

Yes!  It's ALL good!

[mjames]

I like it. I love the dance feel you have going, and the accuracy is very good. S

It does seem a little flippant, though. A little humor and vulgarity is fine in a piece like this, but remember that this is Romantic music, not 20th century.

Tell that to Liszt, and a majority of the early 20th century pianists.

Everything still had an element of elegance then--the Heroic Polonaise, at least in my mind, is the epic tale of a warrior who has gone to valiantly war for his family, his friends, his people, his culture, his country, against an insidious enemy who threatens to destroy everything he holds dear. This is at the center of Chopin's thought in his Polonaises, since he was physically unable to join the army and fight for Poland himself.

Even Chopin himself didn't play Mazurkas and Polonaises like they were supposed to be played. Although you can claim he was inspired by the "mazurka" folk dances, he didn't intend to recreate them nor did he intend other pianists to play them like they were "genuine" mazurkas or polonaises. He used the genre as a vehicle to experiment his own craft.

Secondly Chopin was a well known practitioner of "absolute music": he didn't care about imagery, programs, metaphors, or w/e in his music. Which is why he usually described his pieces by genre. There is little evidence that Chopin wrote his polish dances with the intention of expressing nationalistic imagery, most of these claims came from Liszt and Polish academics during an era of turmoil where they tried to use historical Polish figures to spread nationalism around the country. Even the claim that Chopin was inspired by peasant folk music is a huge exaggeration.

[georgey]

My grandmother was born on Poland (EDIT:  ).  I grew up listening to Alexander Brailowsky playing Chopin complete Polonaises (recorded 1961).  I know a "Great Chopin Polonaise Sound" when I hear it.  I think some may lack the required sensitivity and background to fully appreciate this!  

EDIT:  I'm just kidding here I hope all knows.  The person above in this thread that I say plays OP 53 better than anyone I heard IMO doesn't look to be of Polish origin.  MY FAULT for not putting a  here. 

My listening to Brailowsky as a young Kid in the 1960's is another matter.

[mjames]

"I have Polish roots, i know how Chopin's music is supposed to be played" 

Meanwhile Chopin himself played his mazurkas in 4/4 time. lol

[georgey]

"I have Polish roots, i know how Chopin's music is supposed to be played" 

Meanwhile Chopin himself played his mazurkas in 4/4 time. lol

But we both agree that the OP has for the most part at least the beginning of a great Chopin polonaise sound?  Others here feel differently?  Why is that?

[mjames]

Miscommunication on my part. I'm saying OP expresses the rhythmic nuances of the piece, but I disagree that these have to do with actual "Polish culture" and folk music. I am a firm believer that Chopin's mazurkas and polonaises are of academic origin, not folk origin; as in he composed polonaises/mazurkas for the same reason beethoven or scriabin composed sonatas. So I believe performers aren't required to express the character(s) of the actual folk music.

[georgey]

Miscommunication on my part. I'm saying OP expresses the rhythmic nuances of the piece, but I disagree that these have to do with actual "Polish culture" and folk music. I am a firm believer that Chopin's mazurkas and polonaises are of academic origin, not folk origin; as in he composed polonaises/mazurkas for the same reason beethoven or scriabin composed sonatas. So I believe performers aren't required to express the character(s) of the actual folk music.

You say: "OP expresses the rhythmic nuances of the piece".  Add in great phrasing (Edit ,articulation, pedaling, and other purely musical items) and this is what I mean by "Great Chopin Polonaise Sound".  That's ALL that I'm talking about.

[georgey]

You say: "OP expresses the rhythmic nuances of the piece".  Add in great phrasing (Edit articulation, pedaling, and other purely musical items) and this is what I mean by "Great Chopin Polonaise Sound".  That's ALL that I'm talking about.

Of course all in the context of playing a Chopin Polonaise.  My fault for not being more clear.

[georgey]

Q to Tonytwo: Are you familiar with this Cortot 1933 performance?  

I might suggest that you listen to many fine performances, not just one, if you are not already doing this.  KEEP TUNING UP YOUR EAR.  Again, congratulations! 

This is my last post for a while.  Cheers!

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Yes, the sound isn't great, but a technically secure and adept performance nonetheless. Good octaves!

If I'm to make a suggestion for improvement, it would probably be something like attention to dynamics. The example that springs to mind is in the opening chromatics. There's not really any swell, which to mind is what Chopin is indicating. Great work though!

[thirtytwo2020]

I also think this is a great and very enjoyable, personal performance. Of course there are things you can work on, but please make a conscious effort to keep your lovely energy and panache while you go on polishing the technical details.

if you want to work on a more elegant, poised side of yourself, maybe you can do that in other repertoire? I'm not saying that this piece can't be played with poise and elegance, I'm just worried that at this stage of your development, you might end up with something that sounds a bit bland if you start changing your basic interpretation (which I adore).

One thing I'd like to point out is that in the section with the left-hand octaves, your otherwise great phrasing and natural rhythm go missing. To my ears that right-hand theme sounds uninspired at the moment.