Why is it so hard to play octaves without tension?

[ranjit]

No matter how I play them, I end up with some tension/funny feeling in the wrist after a while. Is it possible to really play without tension given that the octave is an extended hand position?

[perfect_pitch]

Depends on 1) whether you're used to playing octaves. I've played a lot of Liszt before, so that helped me and 2) on your hand size. I can just barely reach a 10th in both hands but have no trouble with octaves passages.

[bernadette60614]

No expert, but with an expert teacher:

How much of your body are your using? Discussion can become fairly heated about different concert performers, but if you ever have seen Kissin perform live you'll note how much of his body he uses to play.

Note if you are using your arms as well as your hands.  I'm working on using my arm from the forearm down when I play "big".

Also, are you overpracticing?  Pumping the ivories too  much/too long can cause tension as well.

Take cae, enoy.

[indianajo]

I played a double octave run in recital age 11. I had  no tension then. I'm not huge, My hands stretch about 10 white notes on the front edge of the keys.
But I get tension now age 68. I still play Lecuona's Malaguena.   Muscles tighten up with age. They have to be stretched out, especially for the old.
Check an ergonomics textbook out of the library and look at the hand stretching pages. Do those excerises.  I do.  Note extreme pain does not do you any good. Just stretch until some very mild pain occurs, then hold that position for a while.  This lengthens your muscles in the relaxed position. Do this daily, or three times a week anyway, even when you're traveling and can't practice piano.   
This is not something any piano teacher taught me, but I was part of the safety team at a factory for a while.  They taught ergonomic exercise to the production workers, including pre-work stretching.  

[ted]

I have never had any trouble playing octaves at any speed I want to. It seems to me that the technique involved is far simpler than that of some other playing forms and it puzzles me why somebody would find them especially hard. If you are experiencing problems and have a reasonably normal hand, then you must be doing something wrong, which any good teacher should be able to spot and correct pretty quickly.

[mjames]

Cause you're doing it wrong

[perfect_pitch]

Cause you're doing it wrong

[ranjit]

It's not that I cannot play octaves; just that I am recently having problems with playing octaves over prolonged periods (hours). The fourth/fifth finger always feels slightly off balance, as I have to hit the key at an angle.

[ted]

It depends what sort of octaves you want to play for hours on end. Rapid consecutive octaves with nothing else would wear a bit thin with anybody. Short irregular bursts of octaves or more or less non-consecutive octaves, such as those in ragtime and stride basses, should be easy to play for a long time.

[mjames]

nice maymays

It's not that I cannot play octaves; just that I am recently having problems with playing octaves over prolonged periods (hours). The fourth/fifth finger always feels slightly off balance, as I have to hit the key at an angle.

damn so you feel FATIGUED after playing OCTAVES for HOURS

yeah why is that so hard

wow it really is a mystery

Initially thought it had something to do with playing through pieces like Chopin's Op.44 or any Liszt with constant feelings of wrist tension or any other type of fatigue, I mean if that was the problem then we'd have an actual technical problem. Turns out OP is unaware that he's not a robot.

[visitor]

lol octaves for hours? holy katz

[mjames]

i mean even OG top dog pianists can't play octaves non-stop for hours without feeling some sort of fatigue. the fck does this dude think he is, the terminator?

"guys why do i feel tired after a 5km non- stop run every morning, how to fix this plz???"

[visitor]

i mean even OG top dog pianists can't play octaves non-stop for hours without feeling some sort of fatigue. the fck does this dude think he is, the terminator?

"guys why do i feel tired after a 5km non- stop run every morning, how to fix this plz???"

[ranjit]

damn so you feel FATIGUED after playing OCTAVES for HOURS

Intermittently.

Also, please realize that all the memes are a pain to scroll through.

In my experience, I can play scales for long durations without getting tired, but not octaves. Is this inherent to playing octaves? Is some amount of tension unavoidable?
Also, you can definitely play piano, even at a high level, for hours at a stretch, and your hands are NOT supposed to hurt. The analogy to running does not hold.

People can and do play difficult repertoire for hours at a stretch. If indeed people can not play octaves for long periods of time, that comes back to my question: Are octaves inherently somewhat unergonomic? As far as I see it, this is a legitimate question.

[keypeg]

I've stayed out of this discussion because I'm still very much a learner.  But in case this is helpful at all:
One of the first pieces I worked on when my teacher was getting a measure of where I was at, had chords in octaves.  I had a habit of a "constant stretch" in the hand.  I'd "pre-stretch" to the shape of the chord before getting there, and kept that stretch for all the other chords.   My hands would feel awful in no time! One of the first things I learned to do was to "un-stretch" since stretching is a muscular effort.    At that early time I developed imagery of my hands being made out of wax.  It was rather hard wax at the point of impact, and at the release, the hand became soft droopy wax, a very warm candle that is losing its shape and integrity in its droopiness, and then "undrooped" again at the right moment.  Maybe a weird image, but it helped me.  so fwiw.  

[mjames]

Intermittently.

Also, please realize that all the memes are a pain to scroll through.

I'm not the one posting memes lol.

In my experience, I can play scales for long durations without getting tired, but not octaves.

Wow, so you can play for example flight of the bumblebee for 5 hours with no breaks without any sort of fatigue whatsoever? Or Chopin's ocean etude? Damn okay cool.

Also, you can definitely play piano, even at a high level, for hours at a stretch, and your hands are NOT supposed to hurt. The analogy to running does not hold.
 

Now you're saying something entirely different. You said nothing about pain, you mentioned tension and tiredness in your wrist which is fatigue (normal if you're going to play for hours non stop.)

People can and do play difficult repertoire for hours at a stretch.

They can and do, sure; but the vast majority of them feel fatigue. I've yet to meet a person who hasn't felt tired after performing a late Scriabin sonata in a concert, let alone for several hours straight. lmao  

[louispodesta]

Intermittently.

Also, please realize that all the memes are a pain to scroll through.

In my experience, I can play scales for long durations without getting tired, but not octaves. Is this inherent to playing octaves? Is some amount of tension unavoidable?
Also, you can definitely play piano, even at a high level, for hours at a stretch, and your hands are NOT supposed to hurt. The analogy to running does not hold.

People can and do play difficult repertoire for hours at a stretch. If indeed people can not play octaves for long periods of time, that comes back to my question: Are octaves inherently somewhat unergonomic? As far as I see it, this is a legitimate question.

This entire discussion is really sad because my Technique Coach teaches a separate Seminar on Octave Technique.  And, in that I have a small hand (with spindly fingers), I can really beat up my Ulnar Nerve, if I do not follow his recommendations, accordingly.

Per the OP (or anyone else), please do not hesitate to contact me by PM.  That is due to the fact that as a result of Troll-like behavior in the past on this Website, my Coach is barely speaking to me.

Consequently, either you want to learn how to play Octaves without beating up your hand, wrist, bone structure and your Ulnar Nerve, or you do not.

[dogperson]

You do not need to contact Louis Podesta by private message.  He is referring to the octave seminar taught by Thomas Mark, link below.  I have checked periodically and have not seen the seminar offered

https://pianomap.com/schedule.html

[louispodesta]

You do not need to contact Louis Podesta by private message.  He is referring to the octave seminar taught by Thomas Mark, link below.  I have checked periodically and have not seen the seminar offered

https://pianomap.com/schedule.html

For the record:  Dr. Thomas Mark offers two seminars.  One is for his very advanced view/interpretation on the teachings of Dorothy Taubman and her so-called successor Edna Golandsky of the Golandsky Institute.

Dr. Mark is not what is available from a so-called Technique Master in Canada, who prostitutes his technique through countless Master Class videos.

If you wish to book Dr. Mark, then please contact him for his basic technique Master Class, through his website.  (www.Pianomap.com)

At that time, if you desire and additional Master Class on Octave Technique, then that is your option.

I have spent five hours (twice) travelling "each way" from San Antonio, Texas to Portland, Oregon ("Portlandia").  This was in order to take a five hour, and then at a very later date a subsequent two hour lesson with this very accomplished Master.

It is no accident that 90% of the U.S. University Piano Department Chairs have a copy of his book ("What Every Pianist Needs To Know About the Body") in their personal office library .

Enough said! 

[keypeg]

Dr. Mark is not what is available from a so-called Technique Master in Canada, who prostitutes his technique through countless Master Class videos.

I have never heard of anyone here calling themselves a Technique Master, and teaching Dr. Mark's ideas. (??)

[lostinidlewonder]

Just a random tip: try playing octave passages just with the thumb, if you can make that light and controlled then adding the octave should be easier.

[keypeg]

This entire discussion is really sad because my Technique Coach teaches a separate Seminar on Octave Technique. .....

One can deplore the "yet again" aspect as many do - however, the pushing of the concepts put out by T. Mark, this is not off base; nor of some of the other things that Louis has mentioned.  Anything that is useful,from whatever source, if it's of use, is worth looking into, I'm thinking.

[keypeg]

double post

[dogperson]

One can deplore the "yet again" aspect as many do - however, the pushing of the concepts put out by T. Mark, this is not off base; nor of some of the other things that Louis has mentioned.  Anything that is useful,from whatever source, if it's of use, is worth looking into, I'm thinking.

I have checked Dr Mark’s website periodically, and have never seen either seminar with a date. 

[timothy42b]

Just a random tip: try playing octave passages just with the thumb, if you can make that light and controlled then adding the octave should be easier.

Start with the thumb, when it's comfortable add the second.  Your listeners will thank you. 

Probably.  <g>