Can the learning ratio be increased?

[rovis77]

Hi, I have a question: My teacher says that as you progress as a piano player you can dramatically increase the speed of the learning ratio at which you learn things and each time you learn things faster and faster, is this true or you are just born with a fixed learning potential that cannot be increased?

[georgey]

Hi, I have a question: My teacher says that as you progress as a piano player you can dramatically increase the speed of the learning ratio at which you learn things and each time you learn things faster and faster, is this true or you are just born with a fixed learning potential that cannot be increased?

My guess on first reading of this:  Your learning potential is fixed.  However, as you work on piano, you will be able to learn pieces faster, giving the appearance that your learning potential is increasing.

Example:  At early stages it takes you 100 hours to learn to play a given Bach 2 part invention.  Six years later, you see yourself being able to sight read a similar difficult piece that you never saw before BETTER than you could play the invention after 100 hours of practice.  Wow, your learning potential has greatly increased!  Actually: No.  It will still take you a 100 hours to learn a piece that is as difficult for you now as the 2 part invention was 6 years prior.  Everything is relative.

[dogperson]

I agree with your teacher that the learning ratio can dramatically increase as a greater percentage of the new piece should require skills you already have, and challenges you know how to address.

This assumes that you choose repertoire and develop skills in a systematic way. If, on the other hand,  you jump from a level three piece which took you three months to learn, to a level 10 piece, you lose the advantage of cumulative skill and problem solving development. ....  and see no change in the learning ratio. ... you have a high percentage which is problematic and will take you very long to learn.  

It is the best reason I can think of to be disciplined; to continually struggle over a large percentage of the score is not something I find enjoyable. There are many pieces of repertoire I want to play, but if my teacher’s advice is ‘wait six months’ or ‘do this first’, then I delay gratification knowing it will be easier (and better)  later.

Hope this makes sense.  I’d be very interested to know the context of your teacher’s comment, as from your previous posts, the order you learn music is not progressive: you learn Waldenstein, but have problems with Pathetique Mvt 1 or Chopin fioritura. Is your teacher trying to get you to postpone repertoire ‘until later’?

[pianoplunker]

Hi, I have a question: My teacher says that as you progress as a piano player you can dramatically increase the speed of the learning ratio at which you learn things and each time you learn things faster and faster, is this true or you are just born with a fixed learning potential that cannot be increased?

No you can not increase how fast you learn, but you can take what you have already learned to make for more efficient practice at the piano. The official term is called "experience".

[outin]

No you can not increase how fast you learn, but you can take what you have already learned to make for more efficient practice at the piano. The official term is called "experience".

Actually in the best case knowledge and skills can be cumulative so that one actually does learn new things faster.

The increasing learning rate may be more apparent to those of us that are so called "holistis learners". When the frame of reference is solidly in place, new things just fit in more easily.

[bernadette60614]

I always answer with:  It depends....

I changed teachers in April.  With my prior teacher, I was learning 4 to 6 pieces in about 6 months. With my current teacher, I have thus far learned 6 PAGES of 2 pieces in almost 3 months.

The difference is that with my new teacher, we are working on my body mechanics, my articulation, phrasing, rhythmic consistency and expression.  We spent a whole 45 minute lesson on staccatos and how they should be played based upon the composer.

With my last teacher, if I got the notes right and was in the general ballpark of the rhythm, we were done and I went onto a new piece.

With my new teacher my learning ratio will be increased..because now I know what to learn and how to learn it. With my prior teacher, I'd be the same pianist in 10 years that I am today.

[georgey]

Its tough to have a conversation without knowing precise definitions.   Silly example:

Say your piano ability goes up 50% each year.  At time 0 you have piano ability of 1.0.

One year later your ability is 1 * 1.5 = 1.5 and the ratio is 1.5/1 = 1.5.  You increased your ability by 1.5 - 1 = 0.5 in the first year.

After 10 years your ability is 1.5^10 = 57.7.  After 11 years your ability is 1.5^11 = 86.5.  In your 11th year the ratio of current to prior year ability is is 86.5/57.7 = 1.5 - SAME ratio, but here you improved 86.5-57.7= 28.8.  28.5 improvement in 11th year is way better than 0.5 in the first year.  But the ratio of change is 1.5 in either case.  SO THE LEARNING RATIO HAS NOT INCREASED.  

[Bob]

Generally, yes.  Your body and mind change.  The music doesn't.  The keyboard doesn't.  There still are only 12 notes and so many chords that are frequently used.
 You take in more patterns, recognize them.  You hone down your workflow for preparing a piece or practicing. 

I don't think it's going to increase exponentially forever though.

[georgey]

I don't think it's going to increase exponentially forever though.

I agree.  Your playing ability may improve by 50% each year for the first 10 years then cut to 10% improvement each year for the next 10 years, then stay flat for 20 years. Then you may start to experience exponential decay as your become an old timer.

So you learning ratio will actually DECLINE over time.

For example,  When you are age 20, it may take you about 1 year to learn a Rach 3 level of difficulty concerto.  When you are 30, it may only take you 9 months to do the same, when you are 50 it may take you the same 9 months.  When you are age 70, it may take you 1.5 years to do the same.  JUST A SILLY ILLUSTRATION.  

[pianoplunker]

I always answer with:  It depends....

I changed teachers in April.  With my prior teacher, I was learning 4 to 6 pieces in about 6 months. With my current teacher, I have thus far learned 6 PAGES of 2 pieces in almost 3 months.

The difference is that with my new teacher, we are working on my body mechanics, my articulation, phrasing, rhythmic consistency and expression.  We spent a whole 45 minute lesson on staccatos and how they should be played based upon the composer.

With my last teacher, if I got the notes right and was in the general ballpark of the rhythm, we were done and I went onto a new piece.

With my new teacher my learning ratio will be increased..because now I know what to learn and how to learn it. With my prior teacher, I'd be the same pianist in 10 years that I am today.

Great teachers are precious for sure.  But if you're prior teacher had shown you the staccatos, and phrasing would you not have made the same progress as you are now ? 

[timothy42b]

No you can not increase how fast you learn, but you can take what you have already learned to make for more efficient practice at the piano.

That's what I've believed, but my reading this past year (Carol Dweck and similar writers on education, especially math education) has changed my mind.

They talk about something called growth mindset.  Your belief that you have a fixed amount of talent, intelligence, etc., vs your belief that you can increase it at any age makes a huge difference in your results. 

One caveat.  There are a lot of discrete skills in piano that don't build on each other.  You must master each one individually during your journey, and having mastered one doesn't transfer much to another.  Of course not all piano skills are that way, but many are.  That's why it takes so long. 

[bernadette60614]

Adding to my prior post:  I think we can't discount environment and outside influences in our learning potential.

A parent who is a piano teacher.

A household filled with music.

Living in a community with an opportunity to hear great music.

A piano teacher who comes to live with the family.  (Basically, Kissin's life.)

Perhaps Kissin would have had a natural bandwidth but the bandwidth was expanded by having the right environment.

I can't replicate that kind of upbringing, but if I have a great teacher, practice intelligently, listen to great pianists, imbue my life with music, my learning ability expands more so than it would if I simply practiced piano on my own.

[lostinidlewonder]

Hi, I have a question: My teacher says that as you progress as a piano player you can dramatically increase the speed of the learning ratio at which you learn things and each time you learn things faster and faster, is this true or you are just born with a fixed learning potential that cannot be increased?

The more tools you have to learn with, the better your practice method becomes, the more experience you can draw from in the past etc, with all these kind of improvements you will learn pieces faster and have the capability to efficiently learn more challenging repertoire.

The capabilities to acquire, develop and maintain these tools however varies person to person. One certainly can notice when a tool helps their learning rate when they compare it with how they worked before without it. However some may become complacent with the tools they acquire or never really develop past using "stone aged" bare basic type tools.

Along side being aware of the good tools that can be used, to develop your tools generally requires a combination of time, discipline and natural capability. Many with natural capabilities can do well with little work or time. There are some however that no matter how much discipline or time they have they will not develop as far as others could, everyone has their level of physical and mental limitation (although of course these things can be improved upon again with varying levels depending upon the individual). Being aware of good tools in the first place however is very important and can be done easily with a good teacher. There is no point in relying on inefficient tools when you could learn to use something much more efficient.

I see this sort of relationship: Two farmers, one who uses modern machinery to work the land and another who uses pre-industrial means. The farmer using the tractor will yield more than the farmer using the ploughing animals. With piano however we have to develop the tools we work with, physically/mentally build them ourselves and train to be proficient in using them (becoming fully aware of them and when and how to use them) and maintain them and developing new "technologies" for them (improve upon the tools either creating a newer better tool or an enhanced version of the old). Obviously you cannot simply buy the farming tools required for learning piano or "Matrix style" learn how to use them, it has to be built from the raw materials from within yourself. You can buy yourself excellent advice through good teachers or learning resources but much rests on your own shoulders of course.

[bernadette60614]

It would be interesting to see if any concert artists have written about this topic. 

However, I wonder if it is less that you learn less rapidly than you learn more deeply. And, deep learning is a slower process.

And, as you become more experienced, your definition of having truly learned a piece becomes more complex and multidimensional.