Strokes of a violin bow ? Chopin Etude op10 no1

[yadeehoo]

Hello people,

I was wondering how the Op10 No1 etude from Chopin should sound like.

I heard about "If you learn it according to my instructions it will expand your hand and enable you to perform arpeggios like strokes of the [violin] bow."

I'm trying to figure out which particular stokes of violin Chopin was referring to.

Was it Ricochet, Détaché, Spiccato sautillé, Tremolo, Ponticello, Col legno, Collé, Martelé, Staccato or Legato ?

Thank you for you contribution

[dogperson]

Really? You might think about just listening to a bunch of professional performances and choosing your own bowing style label. Quite frankly, without being s master violinist, some of these choices are non-sensical.

[yadeehoo]

Maybe I ask how you hear it yourself ? You seem surprised by the question as if the answer was so evident to you. Maybe it's a misunderstanding.

I don't think any choice is nonsensical. They all fall under the category of bow strokes.

I've listened to countless of recording, and none of them sound like strokes of violin to me, so I'm having a hard time trying to imagine how this piece would sound like under any of these specific circumstances. I wish I could get access to more detailed info from Chopin's quotes, I'm really trying to understand his vision ...

Because of this I don't intend to copy any existing performance, I'd rather form a picture in my mind and try to render that. All I need is some inspiration, maybe insights from other people who do actually care about that kind of stuff

[keypeg]

I was going to ask whether you play the violin.  When you mentioned things like col legno, etc. I thought perhaps you did, but the examples themselves, in the context, also made me think you didn't and had perhaps looked up types of bow strokes.  Your newer post gives some clues that might lead to an answer.  I've highlighted the key word:

I've listened to countless of recording, and none of them sound like strokes of violin to me....

Here is what you quoted (I think you were quoting Chopin?)

I heard about "If you learn it according to my instructions it will expand your hand and enable you to perform arpeggios like strokes of the [violin] bow."  

In my understanding, he is talking about the human hand; the actions of the hand and arm - not the sound being produced.

I studied violin for a few years, got into trouble and stopped, and have made a start at resuming.  The bow hand and arm of a good violinist is constantly morphing its shape like an amoeba .... or jellyfish:

or this swimming octopus

I don't know if it can be seen in violin if you're just watching: not just the hand but the whole arm moving in a fluid way.

=30
Maybe it's more visible with a cello

=350

I'm a piano student who started the wrong way as a child self-teaching, picked up piano again decades later, and am un/relearning how to move.   We have used some Chopin etudes at slow tempo, and sometimes just parts, to reeducate movement (technique).  As I understand it, Chopin himself was trying to influence (change?) how his students moved at the piano.  To play pieces like Op. 10 No. 1 at any tempo that is not a snail's pace, esp. if you have a smaller hand,  the shape and angle of your hand is changing continually, and most work in smooth coordination with the entire hand and arm complex.  Since you're going up and down octaves, the body has to move too.  This is like the jellyfish, octopus, and the strings players.

The quote makes instant sense to someone who plays a bowed string instrument, or is learning to do so - but probably less so to someone who is only listening for the sound.  I believe this is about motion and coordination, not any particular sound.

[yadeehoo]

Wow thank you Keypeg you just blew my mind.

This videos of jellyfishes are so relaxing, I could honestly watch the whole 3 hours video next time i'm so sick I can't move at all, gonna be great.

About the violin yes indeed i'm not a player of it, i just copy pasted the list the popular bow strokes techniques. I actually never payed attention that the wrist was moving that much. Is it part of the show or is the movement necessarily needed ?

None of it made sense until you talked about the shape of the hand changing. Now i see the correlation. The hand takes a unique shape for each arpeggio, and is also sometimes shrinking expanding at each pattern repetition. Wow the picture of the jellyfish is going to help so much.

That's the kind of inspiration/vision I needed. I really appreciate your help.

Also I'm relieved I don't have to make this piece actually sound like a violin, I kinda liked it how it sounded so far Still I was thinking of trying to emulate each violin bow stroke technique to compare them and figure which would sound the most appropriate for this Chopin piece. Sometimes i just get sucked in by my imagination ...

Jelly fish it is. Thank you

[keypeg]

Fantastic!
Something important in all this (I think) .... You want to end up being like the jellyfish, or moving similar to a good player, through what you do - not by imitating what they do in order to look like them.    The jellyfish is pushing through the water, against its resistance, to move to where it goes, and ends up streamlining itself in some way.  Likewise, as you play, you may try principles like having continuous motion instead of stopping and starting, know how you can move to produce this or that sound, and the result is that you'll look like that.  I don't know if this makes sense or confuses things.