Borgato "Pedal Pianos"

[theodopolis]

Has anyone had any experience with this Italian make?

'Doppio Borgato' L282 Concert Grand Piano w/  P402 Pedal Piano





Borgato are the only piano-makers that I can locate who deal in this field.
I don't believe them to be the only builders who make pedalboards, especially considering the compositions by Schumann and Alkan concerning this type of instrument.
Borgato also use four strings for the top half of the keyboard compass.

https://www.borgato.it/

Thanks
Theodopolis

[rich_galassini]

I have heard only positive things about this instrument, although I have to admit that it was only from organists. (Thats another board) 

I would love to actually see one sometime.

[pianonut]

are the pedals used as organ pedals?  interesting.  what did schuman write for this type of piano.  was it similar to something one would write for the piano, or are you fooling us?  is this trick imagery?

[iumonito]

Saint-Saens second piano concerto is originally scored for a pedal piano (piano with pedals).  What you hear regularly is therefore actually a transcription by the composer.

Funny.

[pianonut]

cool.  i happen to have the saint-saens 2nd.  i will compare it to the original (if i can find it at wcu) and find out who can play such a thing.  did saint-saens perform it himself?

[iumonito]

That I don't know.  The story is that he was in such a hurry (Saint-Saens composed really fast, none of Beethoven 10,000 drafts of every 4 measures) that he took a theme that his student Faure submitted as an exercise ("this bit is good, I can put it to use") and turned it into the main motive of the first movement for the concerto schedule a week later.  Perhaps myth, but fun nevertheless.  Saint-Saens played the organ just as expertly as the piano, so I can't imagine that would have been a problem.

[rich_galassini]

I understand that this was an alternative to having an actual organ in your home. It is way cooler though.

[etudes]

oh great!
i have never seen anything like this  (i imagine organ)
learn something new everyday

[theodopolis]

One thing that I am unsure about is the dynamic expression depending on the force used on the pedal keys: This being the main difference between organ and piano keyboard technique.

Anyone who has played organ pedals will know that dynamics by varying force are not really a priority, and most would realise that the feet are not the most subtle of musical manipulators.

I wonder if they've developed a kind on single dynamic action similar to a harpsichord, or if you have to develop a new pedal technique from scratch, which incorporates dynamic control as well.

[whippen boy]

A some random musings about this topic:

If you are really curious to hear this beastie, here is a link to a website where you can order a CD:
https://jeanguillou.artistes.universalmusic.fr/Discographie_de_Jean_Guillou/472_364-2/472_364-2.html  If this URL doesn't work, you can search the Internet for Jean Guillou and Borgato.

Jean Guillou is a famous French organist/pianist.

One thing puzzles me: if your feet are engaged in playing notes, how do you have time to operate the sustain pedal artistically?  There would also have to be some sort of 'shelf' to rest your heels on, while you are operating the sustain and una corda, etc.  The shelf would get in the way of playing the pedal notes, so the whole thing seems really awkward 

I may encounter Jean Guillou during my travels this summer.  If I do, I'll ask!

I suspect that the most usual way to play this, is to use a typical organist technique - employ a super legato, and prolong the notes by holding them down, rather than with the sustain pedal.  OK for Bach, but it seems like it would be way too dry for romantic music.  A mystery - especially since pedal pianos were being used during the romantic era.

I understand that this was an alternative to having an actual organ in your home. It is way cooler though.

Rich, I think it would be 'way cooler' to have a real pipe organ in my home!    Not that I would toss out a Borgato if it appeared on my doorstep!     I would just put it in my organ loft...(of course)!

I wonder why we don't hear more about Borgato pianos (sans pedals).  Do they not sell them that way?  The appearance alone looks sumptuous, and the regular part of the piano has some intriguing features (such as four struck unisons per treble note).  I'd think that any piano with this sort of appeal (technical, visual, status) would be more well-known - especially if they market a 'normal' version.  Price alone shouldn't be a factor, since pricey exotic pianos can easily be found in the US.  Hmm, I wonder what the sound is like?  I guess I should order that CD.

Speaking of price, I can't find one for the Borgato!   

[G.Fiore]

 : Borgato, like Stuart&Sons, is a very small manufacturer.  They make about 12 concert grands a year. All of these pianos are handmade only after an order accompanied with a deposit is made.
 The concert grand is available in the normal configuration and cannot be had for less than $160,000. I know of one lucky individual to import one last year.

[c18cont]

Short interest item...

At some University's I visited with my performing groups many years ago, I saw pedal pianos set up in practice rooms for organ students, and always understood it was the most common purpose of the modern units...is this not so?

Even earlier, as a student, I never used one as there was ample time on the organs where I went to school and they had no pedal piano sets.

[c18cont]

P.S...

Maybe when I become more familiar with this interesting forum I will put on somewhere, photos of my 10rk (After rebuild...based on 4 rk Moller unit organ..) pipe organ I built into my home in the 1970's...not as bad a job as it sounds...

Perhaps it would be o.k.... in the general feel of this forum..if in the non-piano section...

I am a reasonable  amateur re-voicer and re-builder, having worked for a couple of small company's, so I did it...I no longer have it, having sold it after expanding it, and improving the voicing for lower wind pressure for the house...Made more than I paid...

It had to be re-voiced again, as it went back into a church...oddly enough, very near the city where I first removed it from a church....!!

John Cont