Faster and more flow, how to achieve it?

[faa2010]

Yesterday my teacher told me that I didn't play bad at the recital, but that I need to check the next issues:

- Play faster, she said that in the Last session, I played with a good speed, but in the recital I slowed the tempo (contrary to another student, who played faster and so he did mistakes). I didn't want to play faster because I thought about not making mistakes and focus more in singing the pieces, but despite that, I still made mistakes, even though they were just a few.
 
- Play with more flow. That I can understand, but I don't Know how to do it or practice. I think that being less choppy and to think not just in notes and think more in phrases are related, but I am not sure how to make the connection, what kind of approach I need to take.

I don't feel fine because I did it before, I knew how to, but for some reasons my mind is forgetting, so my piano is getting or might get lower in quality.

How can I solve the issues I mentioned?, or is it just by still playing, practicing and time patience?

[keypeg]

You might ask her what specifically you need to do in your practising that will enable you to achieve these things. Teaching how to reach something is (imho) part of a teacher's role.

What did she say that you did well in that recital?

[mjames]

VROOOM VROOOM MEEEEEEEEEP MEEEEEEEEEEEEEP

[adodd81802]

VROOOM VROOOM MEEEEEEEEEP MEEEEEEEEEEEEEP

+1



But seriously - you said within the first 3 words "Yesterday my TEACHER"

What do you think a bunch of random people on a forum can offer you online, that your teacher cannot?

If your teacher cannot clear up that suggestion - consider looking for a new teacher!

Explain to them that it is not clear what they asked of you, and either can they show you I.E - they play the same passage or piece of music and highlight the differences OR / AND show you directly with your own hands how you can improve, or what it is they meant.

Once again - if you're still not clear by the end of the discussion, consider a new teacher.

[dogperson]

I agree that your teacher should show and demonstrate how to get more flow and the skills to play faster.  I Will add to that a question about the  sequence of events of your performing the Debussy in recital.   Right before the recital, you posted the Debussy  here and asked for feedback. The synopsis of the feedback was that you needed more flow and there were tips to help you get there. Why didn’t your teacher work through the same things with you during your lessons prior to the recital as you were learning the music?  Why did you have to hear the suggestions from this group of strangers on the Internet immediately before the recital ?   These were things that should have been discussed early during the learning process. Were they? Did you understand them?

These are questions I think you should ask yourself about whether this is the right teacher for you.  Think back about how you were being taught this piece from the first lesson on it.

[visitor]

you may very well be slowing the piece too much to learn it, a symptom of likely learning works too far above your ability level or familiarity w idiom, style, etc.

do you have the same criticism with works well below your current level? , if not, then isolate at what difficulty cohesiveness and overall pulse suffer, then back it off a little.

yes is it ok to play a little less brisk for the sake of control, but the tempo is part of the music, and a piece will lose its character when taken too slow, its a score marking and should be followed, if you are not able to, the piece may be too much for you right now at least.

for pulse and overall flow, you need to learn to listen to a piece and 'feel' it in overall pulse, ie a 4/4 work, will tend to many times have a feel of a 2 big beats per measure, also, beats don't have equal emhasis, same 4/4 beats 1 and 3 usually stronger and playing them with a 'down' motion works well a lot of the time, beats 2 and 4 generally weaker, an up motion works better, similar can be said for 6/8 , where really should be felt in '2',  3/4 usually one large beat 2 leading up beats,

tempo, can be addressed with systematic pushing beyond the performance goal, so once the exam or performance comes you have it in your hands beyond the called for or your own goal to play.  when you perform, it is seldom a smart idea to be at your max, too many things can go wrong, so something you aim to play at 110-130, be comfortable w tempi at 140+ so you're in complete musical and technical control, this allows you to plan and listen actively and make spur of the moment calls and adjustments mid performance since your mind isn't so occupied w notes at a breakneck for you speed, you can focus on other aspects of the performance which are, and should be many.
so weeks/months out you have the piece at 90, you work on overal large beat feel and set a goal for the week to push it to 98, the following week, 110, then maybe two weeks later 120, then a week later 135, then 140, then hold a few weeks, then back it off to 120... that's what i do at least.
a lot of hist stuff gets covered in training at the university/conservatory formal study and advanced private studio (with appropriate teacher) instruction, i recall ranjit asked about stuff liked that elsewhere recently

[faa2010]

Thanks for the feedback.

Yes, my teacher should be the one who could teach me, so that I shouldn't ask here questions and don't ask for help with anybody else. But let's be honest, who else in life doesn't want a second opinion?, that's why some students have more than one teacher, that masterclasses exist, music camps and other options to improve the piano level. Unfortunately, some of them need money.

My teacher is a nice person Who can be honest if you ask her about something, but she doesn't want to solve the piano issues unless you show her that you have worked hard to solve it, and you don't Know what else to do.

Also, I had another teacher outside school, whose method helped me a lot. I didn't have problems with her despite the money and her neurotic attitude, even though one time she almost made me hate the piano. The problem was That she wanted me to hurt someone, to act as her pawn and do something very very awful and I almost did it but I didn't. She went Mad, told me hurtful things, also because I made a mistake in the classroom. AND EVEN IF THAT WAS NOT ENOUGH, she wanted me to forget everything, act like nothing and return how things were, obviously things can't return as they used to be, now That I saw that she wanted to use me to do dirty work.

This happened on February, I got rid of her as a teacher on February and as a boss on June.

Currently, I am only with my music school teacher who is a nice person as long as you work hard, but I don't feel the same demand, attention or that she can easily give me the same solutions like the neurotic one.

And I can't change teacher right now because a big piano exam is coming, and I cannot risk myself in changing to one who could be worse and stale my progress or emotionally traumatize me. I can do it once I finish my important exams which are going to be on May.

So my conclusion is to become right now more autodidact, which includes search for support in other ways outside the classroom. And I think it is what my current teacher wants too, to become more independent, because she told me that I work so hard.

[themeandvariation]

Regrettably, the 'teacher' doesn't sound much invested - (with their time!) in your development pianistically..   From what you've said, I don't see how getting another could be much worse, though, this gamble seems threatening to you.. Shame.. bc you really seem like you want to learn.. One needs guided individual instruction at this stage, and online 'help' would only be a pale shadow.
How unfortunate.. Well, do the exams.  And most definitely, Get Another Teacher!

[lostinidlewonder]

Teacher should go through the pieces with you and highlight which parts need attention. Should also give you tactics to solve it. Sometimes students are afraid to ask their teachers detailed questions, you should not and come up with specific questions, specific bars, specific challenges you are facing. You can demonstrate your attempts at solving it n front of your teacher and ask for improvement, this is a basic teacher/student interaction but does require the student to be a question asked rather than a passive parrot to teach.

A good teacher will be happy to hear about your questions and directly help you, they should feel silly avoid such things! An even better teacher helps you to question your own issues and reveal them, a lesser teacher just lets you do things on your own and suggest brute force repetition on trouble areas, quite pathetic. Yes you should do things on your own with your own practice craft capabilities but if this craft is not taken under the microscope in your lessons as a student you have the right to question these and put focus on it.

[pianoplunker]

Yesterday my teacher told me that I didn't play bad at the recital, but that I need to check the next issues:

- Play faster, she said that in the Last session, I played with a good speed, but in the recital I slowed the tempo (contrary to another student, who played faster and so he did mistakes). I didn't want to play faster because I thought about not making mistakes and focus more in singing the pieces, but despite that, I still made mistakes, even though they were just a few.
 
- Play with more flow. That I can understand, but I don't Know how to do it or practice. I think that being less choppy and to think not just in notes and think more in phrases are related, but I am not sure how to make the connection, what kind of approach I need to take.

I don't feel fine because I did it before, I knew how to, but for some reasons my mind is forgetting, so my piano is getting or might get lower in quality.

How can I solve the issues I mentioned?, or is it just by still playing, practicing and time patience?

It looks like your teacher has your back so to speak. Nothing wrong with fine tuning a piece but I would ask what is meant by "flow".   Could be you need to use your ears more than trying some technique to acheive flow. Hear what you play and play what you hear. With all that , you need to discuss with your teacher the meaning of "flow". It might not have anything to do with choppy.

[outin]

Hi! When I listened yo your recordings, the lack of "flow" is something I noticed as well. However the "flow" you hear with seasoned players is a combination of physical technique (both hands and legs), mental focus, ability to hear and adjust one's playing in real time and rhythmic skills. All those must be developed and some just get it more natural than others.

I personally found it is easier to fix problems of physical technique than mental (cognitive) issues. As an example I have great problems with focus and memory. If I want to get through a piece I often just cannot afford to let myself go so that my playing sounds relaxed and free. If I do I will crash and burn at a random point when my focus gets totally lost. So when I play for someone, I have to choose between what I think sounds best musically or playing relatively error free.

I guess the answer is to first analyze your playing as a whole, then focus on isolation things that should and can be changed and then experiment on what works to fix them. This is something your teacher should help you with. I do not believe there is any recipe that works for everyone, since we can be so differently wired.

[dogperson]

Faa
You asked here how to play with more flow, but I believe this was answered in the comments to your original Debussy posting:  sing the melody, record yourself and listen, not only just the phrases but also how the sections merge from one to the other.

You will certainly get internet help, but there is a limit to how much any of us can be autodidactic. When you start working on a piece, a good teacher will help you work through the phrasing, dynamics, rhythm issues and flow. I don’t see how your teacher has been helping you, as you needed to ask these questions on a forum immediately before a recital that your teacher should have addressed long before then. If I could hear everything and know how address it, I wouldn’t need a teacher. Seems like your teacher is not doing his/her share

I hope you will ask yourself what you are really gaining from lessons with this teacher. Six more months before you address this is a long time, particularly since you have exams.

[Bob]

I've only glanced through the post and I listed to a bit of three of your audition board recordings. 

Flow -- Probably means "more lyrical," think horizontally (instead of plunking out notes in time), shape/dynamics with the phrase/some kind of 'warping' with the line in terms of dynamics and time. 

There might be a bit of -- this is going to be hard to describe -- a kind of clipping of the last note, esp. when it's low to high.  I here something like a dee-UP! dee-UP!, sometimes, if that makes sense.

It kind of goes along with the faster comment.  It sounds like you're slipping into a 'practice track' mode in the recordings.  It's in time, but then it stays in time, dynamics don't change, nothing 'warps' time a little according to those phrases. 

Maybe it's a phrase, segment, motive, whatever... Some kind of grouping of notes.  They go together.  And they move horizontally across time. 

Maybe singing the lines/segments of lines would help?

For 'faster' it sounds like it's gotten static from practicing.  And then it makes sense that you've heard yourself play it a certain way over and over for so long, it sounds normal.  Plus, you're devoting some attention to actually playing vs. just listening.  Maybe record and listen back?  But you've already got the recordings made so I think you've probably done that.  Tempo-wise, sure, faster.

Faster... I'd also maybe say add 'more life' into it.  I got a feeling of static practice (I'm sure I do that on my own things).  Not like someone's talking 'to you' in the same room, speaking and controlling what they say, but more like someone's there, not looking at you, rattling off the same thing they've done over and over, maybe not even paying attention to it.  Something like that.  That's getting beyond anything technical, any technical hurdles with the pieces. 

On the flow idea again, maybe connect the notes more.  The dee-UP stuff I heard the March baroque piece, so not necessarily wrong, although I don't think it was intentional articulation for that.  I'm thinking it was the piano too a little.  The Debussy piece got a little more static, metronomic (but not bad), and had that static, plodding feel in the left hand.  Maybe think of a shape or something moving, like leaves, waves, etc.  Add in an element of "speaking it to someone else" to get it alive.  Add in (more for me here) having your attention on, being present in the moment (That's requiring/burning a lot of mental energy there though).


On the teacher comments in the thread, I'd say you are in charge of you.  Your teacher's not going to make things happen in the long run.  Only you will.  Only you can.  Your teacher has their own limitations and may not even be bringing information you need up to you.  (That's ok with you?  Of course not.)  Just treat them like an advisor.  That's their idea.  Their one idea.  What do you think?  There's nothing wrong with more opinions, esp if everyone mentions the same things.  Then you know it's you even if you're not aware of it.   I wouldn't hesitate to get more info/idea/opinions online.  That's one huge plus for the internet.

[bronnestam]

More flow - sing the phrases. And dance them. I am not talking about beautiful singing here (personally I hate to sing) nor any advanced ballet. Make sure nobody is watching/listening, get up from the seat and hum the melody while you move your body like a happy toddler would do, or an enthusiastic conductor. Make faces. Make the melody floooow in your head and through your body. Because if your body cannot feel this music flow, how do you expect your hands to do it? (Yes, they are a part of your body ...)

Again, make sure nobody is watching/observing you. That will make you feel awkward and this is supposed to be a fun exercise, not anything embarrassing. When there is people in the house, I sometimes sneak into the bathroom and do a silent pantomime in front of the mirror. You may think this is strange, but try it and see if you don't get more feeling into you playing!

Sometimes I also imagine the music being sung by an opera singer in my head, or being played by a full symphony orchestra, or ... I let the melodies "play on repeat" in my head while I walk my dogs or drive my car.

I also know there are piano teachers who think you should sing WHILE you play, but to me that is too complicated ...

[bernadette60614]

The best performance I ever gave (and this was according to my teacher) was two days after sinus surgery when I was so distracted by pain that my entire mind wasn't focused on the piece.  I achieved "flow" because I was playing and not listening to that self-talk of "oh, here comes the tough part, slow down"...I was just playing.

I would suggest that now that your teacher has pinpointed your issues you ask her to assign you pieces which would challenge you to focus on those issues.  For speed, I really like Mozart sonatas, not because they are so flashy (hey, you could play Flight of the Bumble Bee there), but because, e.g., in Rondo Alla Turca there are passages where you are "quickening" with a limited number of fingers.  (I'm not a teacher so that may not be the best explanation.)

For flow..does she mean expressive flow?  Do you suddenly get REALLY LOUD without a building crescendo, e.g.?  I'm playing a fairly basic Beethoven Rondo right now and comparing the recording of my performance to a concert artist, mine doesn't have that feeling of propulsion that I hear in the professional performance...and that is because I'm so tensed up about technical aspects that I'm not sufficiently conscious of expression.

Finally, for a teacher to point out two areas of weakness is 1) a responsible teacher and 2) a pretty good performance. So, take a moment to appreciate your accomplishment before your focus on areas which need additional work.

[sucom]

I would say that the main culprit for not 'flowing' is fear; fear of playing a wrong note or two, or three .... 

It's important to practice accuracy, I have to point this out immediately, but I believe it's equally important to practice 'flowing'; to just 'feel' the music and let it go where it will without the fear of playing a wrong note.  Fear is a darned nuisance for the musician because music naturally flows freely without fear.  Two of my students had this particular problem, they couldn't go with the flow at all, and I found it very interesting that they were both book-keepers.  'Can't have any mistakes in there!'  I used to remind them that lightning was unlikely to strike as a result of playing a wrong key!

Don't get me wrong - accuracy is important!  However, losing the fear is also very important if you are ever going to feel that natural flow that all music has.  One of the best ways to 'feel' that flow; to 'join' that flow and move with it, is to lose the fear of playing a wrong note. 

Something I used to do many, many years back, was attempt to play a piano concerto with a record I was listening to.  Of course I didn't know all the notes, but I joined in wherever I could.  In this way, I got into the flow of the music and that has stayed with me my whole life.  And nothing bad happened while I was playing.  And it improved my sight reading 100 fold.

There is a time for getting in the flow, and there is a time for accuracy.  In my view, the two go hand in hand and each improve with practice.

[coolpianoman]

I am sure you will get a lot of advice on here regarding these three points but as your teacher seemed to have raise them but not solved them maybe time to get another teacher - only a thought!