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bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE (Read 1453 times)

Offline pianoplayerstar

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bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
« on: February 04, 2019, 05:46:59 PM »
This is an E-flat scale key signature.

Something doesn't sound right when this is played.

Please confirm so we are on the same page.

"Is this double flat key PLAYED AS an "A" or an "Ab"?


Offline pianoplayerstar

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #1 on: February 04, 2019, 06:02:06 PM »
it's a new bar measure as you can see with no prior naturals. But something just doesn't sound right.

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #2 on: February 05, 2019, 08:51:05 AM »
Easy - Play it as an A... the accidentals always override the key signature.

At the same time however, you've given us exactly 3 notes out of potentially thousands, so I can't tell you if it's right or wrong sounding as I don't know the piece.

Offline andrewuk

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #3 on: February 05, 2019, 09:05:32 AM »
I'll name that tune in 3...

Actually I won't, so as not to spoil others' enjoyment in identifying it, but it's one of the best-known pieces in the piano repertoire.

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #4 on: February 05, 2019, 02:07:02 PM »
I'll name that tune in 3...

2..

1..



...?

Offline pianoplayerstar

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #5 on: February 06, 2019, 03:26:44 AM »
andrewuk wants to know which piece this is.

Very esoteric piece. Clue: the opus and the # add up to "11"
----
Yes, I thought it was an 'A' as well, but it just didn't sound right.

Offline keypeg

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #6 on: February 06, 2019, 11:52:20 AM »
pps, part of reading music is context, meaning we look at a larger part of the music.  The way you gave us just a few notes suggests you're not thinking in that way yet.

I don't know what the piece is but I'm already guessing that this is the start of a chromatic scale and that the next note is Ab if that continues.  Also, even if there are there is an Ab in the key signature, music contains notes that are not in the key signature.  If it does continue down chromatically, then Anat followed by Ab would be awkward.

Offline dogperson

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #7 on: February 06, 2019, 12:03:49 PM »
pps, part of reading music is context, meaning we look at a larger part of the music.  The way you gave us just a few notes suggests you're not thinking in that way yet.

I don't know what the piece is but I'm already guessing that this is the start of a chromatic scale and that the next note is Ab if that continues.  Also, even if there are there is an Ab in the key signature, music contains notes that are not in the key signature.  If it does continue down chromatically, then Anat followed by Ab would be awkward.


Why is A nat followed by A flat awkward?  This would be the descending chromatic scale with the suggested fingering of 5 on A nat so that 4 available to play A flat.

Offline keypeg

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #8 on: February 06, 2019, 12:17:25 PM »
Why is A nat followed by A flat awkward?  This would be the descending chromatic scale with the suggested fingering of 5 on A nat so that 4 available to play A flat.
There is a choice, though usually for descending you favour flatting notes rather than raising a note and then lowering it again.

I don't understand what you are saying about fingering.  Whether the note is called Bbb or Anat, the piano keys remain the same, your hand remains the same, and you choose the most comfortable fingering.  At the moment we don't even know the piece or where those notes are going next.  I hazarded a guess.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #9 on: February 08, 2019, 06:22:41 PM »
I can't see the context or recognize the piece.  Is the harmony there Db minor? 
Tim

Offline anamnesis

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #10 on: February 09, 2019, 12:18:08 AM »
I'm surprised people still haven't identified it.

Just to clarify, pianoplayerstar was being sarcastic when he was it was 'esoteric'.  The overall tune is quite famous even if the brief excerpt posted in the thread isn't. 
 
Five more hints:

1.  If pps had posted the bass, more would have figured it out. 

2. The piece, to the best of my knowledge, isn't one that has a moniker.  The name of the genre with it's opus number and key signature (and the composer) are usually how people would refer to it. 

3.  In all likelihood, it's in the running for the piece that firsts pops in your mind when you name the genre, even if you didn't name the composer. 

4. There are two other works in the opus.  If you don't get it after this hint and some trivial math, you don't recognize the work with its opus number which I find quite unlikely given how famous the work is (but still possible?) or you're undergoing a brainfart.

5. You likely have it in your sheet music/books.  You don't even have to have a book that contains all the other works in the genre by the composer to have it.  It's one of the pieces that's always put in generic big-book collections of "classical music". 

One more clarification.  It's famous enough that people should recognize the tune despite not having a moniker, but because it doesn't have one or a distinct title beyond its genre, it makes it hard for the general public to "name" it.  Only musicians who are used to referring to opus numbers would make a habit of "storing" the name in their minds.

Offline keypeg

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #11 on: February 10, 2019, 01:21:13 PM »
You have three descending chromatic notes in the middle of a piece.  Isn't it likely that many pieces have three chromatic notes?

Offline sucom

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #12 on: February 10, 2019, 02:49:33 PM »
Just reading around the forums, this particular thread is just one of many good examples of why learning about music theory can be so helpful.  https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=64965.0

Offline themeandvariation

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #13 on: February 10, 2019, 03:55:52 PM »
You have three descending chromatic notes in the middle of a piece.  Isn't it likely that many pieces have three chromatic notes?

Yes, but there are other clues...  Time to spill...  (Chop. Noct. in Eb) 
4'33"

Offline keypeg

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #14 on: February 12, 2019, 01:46:30 AM »
What are the other clues from three notes, that make those three notes be part of this, and only this, piece?
How does that knowledge help the asker know that Bbb is played using the piano key designated for Anat - or rather, would one need such knowledge to figure that out?  It's sort of like saying to know how to pronounced "cat", you have to first read the Dr. Seuss book.

Offline themeandvariation

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #15 on: February 12, 2019, 04:43:11 AM »
What are the other clues from three notes, that make those three notes be part of this, and only this, piece?
How does that knowledge help the asker know that Bbb is played using the piano key designated for Anat - or rather, would one need such knowledge to figure that out?  It's sort of like saying to know how to pronounced "cat", you have to first read the Dr. Seuss book.

We can see that the key signature is indicated. Also, it appears to be a triplet starting on the first beat.  Also, the #28 - was a clue as to the measure number.  So, Since the Nocturne in Eb (op. 9 #2) met that criteria, I thought i'd hazard a .. guess.
And, no, one doesn't need to identify the piece to know that a Bbb is played as an A natural..
I offered the guess, as some seemed to be wondering.
4'33"

Offline keypeg

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Re: bb on E-flat - PLAY IT AS an "A"? or "Ab"? -DOUBLE TAKE
«Reply #16 on: February 12, 2019, 10:32:27 AM »
Now I get it.