Collapsing first knuckles

[psykopili]

Hi everyone. I have a high school student, and while playing Satie's 1st Gnossienne, I noticed his left hand collapses from the first knuckles while playing the chords.

He allowed me to record a small video of it:

I couldn't come up with a satisfactory solution to this on the spot. Now that I'm testing it on the table, my hand collapses the same way, if I apply too much force when the hand isn't properly aligned.

Any advice on how to fix this would be much appreciated. Thank you!

[sucom]

I happened to come across a video of someone talking about this, (I'm sorry, I can't remember who it was) and he put forward the idea of a bridge collapsing over a river every time the finger collapsed. It made me smile at the time and I tried the idea with one of my students who had a similar problem.

Every time I saw a finger collapse I would say 'Oops, someone just fell in the water'.  This would make them hold the finger correctly and try again.  Gradually they eased out of the problem.

It reminds me a little of how my little finger would raise every time I played a trill, many years ago.  My teacher suggested I put a flag on it!  Every time I practised I would see a little flag on my finger as I watched it rise and this brought my focus onto it enough to eventually allow me to cure the problem on my own. It worked a treat!

[associatex]

Just curious, why is this a problem-does it affect how the chord sounds? Other than it being just a visual thing that looks odd?

[sucom]

Just curious, why is this a problem-does it affect how the chord sounds? Other than it being just a visual thing that looks odd?

The ideal scenario would be that the player has ultimate control over his fingers because the fingers (and knuckles) form one part of a mechanism which the player uses to control the notes he is playing.  The carpenter with the sharpest tools has an advantage over the carpenter with blunt tools.  In a similar way, the player who has 'sharpened the tools he is using, ie, disciplined the fingers, arms, use of pressure, etc,  will have the most freedom to create or recreate the music coming through him.

Can you trust a finger to press down on a key with a particular pressure with absolute certainty if there might be a possibility of the finger collapsing? How can the player control the sound if he doesn't have the ultimate control over his fingers?

I like to think of the fingers as little mechanisms which move up and down to make contact with a key but the ultimate pressure comes from other areas of the body.  This pressure from other parts of the body relies on those fingers to do as they are told so that they can be relied on.  Fingers which collapse could have a mind of their own!

[keypeg]

I am a learner so take this all with a grain of salt.

I am seeing a hand where fingers are "pre-shaped" and keeping that shape, and a certain stiffness.  I would almost think that if this student stopped trying to curve the fingers and allowed a relaxed looseness to come in, then the knuckles also wouldn't end up collapsing like that.  If I try to lift my fingers out of the way of the black keys, and lift non-playing fingers out of the way, then I end up with the same thing.

[sucom]

Hi Keypeg

I don't think it is so much about keeping the hand in one particular shape - it's more about naturally coming back to a default shape.  The idea that something MUST be retained certainly does suggest or imply some stiffness but the idea of keeping the hand loose and allowing the hand to fall naturally back into a default shape is key here.

Some people have almost double jointed fingers which tend to collapse at the slightest provocation and these are not so easy to correct.  They can collapse as soon as you look at them!  Other people can simply allow their fingers to collapse and may be unaware they are doing it.  In these situations, focussing on the problem may be all that is needed to correct it.

[keypeg]

You may not think of keeping some particular shape, but this student, what I'm seeing, seems to be keeping a shape.  The fingers are perpetually curved in the outer knuckles at all times, and the whole thing has a "fit over these keys" look to them.  It may even be that if she knows he is not to collapse his first joints, that this is a mental effort that translates into what I'm seeing.

[sucom]

I'm not quite sure what point you are making Keypeg. Could you clarify?

[keypeg]

Well, look at that hand - look at those fingers.   They are perpetually curved in one and the same shape as if set in stone.  If I try to do the same thing, my hand becomes rigid in the way I see there.  If I'm lifting my fingers away from the black keys or from the keys like an ant trying not to touch a hot stove, my knuckles curve in like that too.  Well - you're the teacher and I'm not.  What do you see?

And why are there no teachers responding?

[sucom]

I feel that bringing a problem to light and focussing on it may actually be all that is needed to correct it.  Frequently, I have found, there is not enough 'desire' to correct the problem by the student who will often be quite happy to take the easy way out and leave the hand as it is.

If there is something in place to create sufficient desire to overcome the problem, I guarantee that the problem will solve itself in the majority of cases.

[timothy42b]

If there is something in place to create sufficient desire to overcome the problem, I guarantee that the problem will solve itself in the majority of cases.

Then you run into very unusual students, especially since most of the time the problem is not primary, but a symptom of doing something else wrong, or not doing something else right.  Usually understanding why it happens is more important than motivation. 

I could not get the video to load but by mousing over the time bar I could see most of the positions.  I agree with keypeg.  This looks to me like a case of a student valiantly trying hard to achieve what he thinks is a correct hand position, but he hasn't quite understood it.  He is tense and finger centric, not using any arm weight or relaxation.  Like keypeg I don't claim any expertise, this is just what I think I see.  I would approach this by getting him to play loud relaxed left hand chords until he gave up on that tight finger stuff.  I wonder if he plays with a coin on the back of his hand at home.

[keypeg]

I feel that bringing a problem to light and focussing on it may actually be all that is needed to correct it.  Frequently, I have found, there is not enough 'desire' to correct the problem by the student who will often be quite happy to take the easy way out and leave the hand as it is.

If there is something in place to create sufficient desire to overcome the problem, I guarantee that the problem will solve itself in the majority of cases.

I disagree.  One may actually make things worse, or not look in the wrong place.  I suspect that the effort to not have collapsing joints may actually be causing the problem in this case, for example.  Finding the cause, and thus solution, is key I think.

[sucom]

I disagree.  One may actually make things worse, or not look in the wrong place.  I suspect that the effort to not have collapsing joints may actually be causing the problem in this case, for example.  Finding the cause, and thus solution, is key I think.

It goes without saying that finding the cause and thus a solution is key.  That's what a teacher is there for!  However, from a teacher's perspective, knowing what a problem is, and finding a solution for it is one thing, but actually getting the student to do it is quite another.  That is more where I am coming from because I assumed, and still am assuming, that the teacher who asked this question has some knowledge on the subject and is more than capable of knowing how to correct it.  Sometimes the teacher knowing how to correct something can be difficult to achieve because the problem may be that the student him or herself has some mental or physical block in place, or simply doesn't see it as a problem worth correction.  Or it may be due to something else.  This teacher, who knows the student, will have more idea on how this student is in other areas of their playing.

Obviously, all things should be examined to find a possible cause.  Is the forearm too high?  Are the fingers themselves strong enough to depress the keys over three notes?  Is the student able to depress single keys without sinking the knuckles down?  Whatever the reason, time should be spent playing single notes in 5 finger exercises without allowing the knuckles to collapse.  Once this has been achieved, then move on to chords with 2 notes, then three, etc. 

Some students have very supple hands which bend easily and this can be difficult to correct, but as I said, focussing on it with a mind to holding the hand in a better position, while also in a relaxed position, will often cure the problem over time.  I'm thinking that it is not just during chord playing that the knuckles sink.  I think it is highly possible it appears in other situations too so any exercises which allow the student to focus on NOT allowing the knuckles to sink will be helpful.

Far too many students are of the belief that they just 'can't do it!'  'It's too difficult!'  My answer to this is: 'I don't understand the word 'can't.'  It's a self-limiting belief.  I would change the statement 'I can't do it!' to 'I can't do it YET!'

[keypeg]

Sucom, for some reason I thought you were the one asking the question.  I don't know how that happened.  Now I see that it was Psykopili, and up to now, s/he has not bothered to come back to his/her own question.  So we're sort of wasting our time.  I agree with what you wrote.

Psykopili?

[timothy42b]

I think it is highly possible it appears in other situations too so any exercises which allow the student to focus on NOT allowing the knuckles to sink will be helpful.

I almost agree, but in my experience focusing on NOT doing something is usually doomed to failure.  The focus must be on DOING something else correctly.  (probably that's what you meant, but just in case)

[keypeg]

It might be useful for Psykopili to make a video of his / her hand playing the same chord, from the same angle, so as to get some extra clues.  I'm playing on a hunch here.

[sucom]

I almost agree, but in my experience focusing on NOT doing something is usually doomed to failure.  The focus must be on DOING something else correctly.  (probably that's what you meant, but just in case)

Hi Timothy

I think you make a good point.  Actively doing something in order to reach a goal is so much easier than NOT doing something.  This makes me think of dieting and how difficult that can be!  If someone said that to lose weight you have to eat as much as you can in between meals, that would be so much easier than someone saying, Don’t eat anything between meals!  It leaves you thinking ‘What shall I do then?’  I wonder if this is because our brains are geared towards activity to achieve rather than non-activity?

Anyway, a game I haven’t played in a long time came to my mind while considering your words.  I had to look it up because it’s so long since I’ve seen it, but the game is called Don’t Buzz the Wire.  With this game, you have to move from A to B through various coils without allowing the metal ring to touch the wire.  If the ring touches the wire, it buzzes and you lose.  This is like a non-activity in a way because you have to focus on NOT touching the wire.  However, the active part of the game is moving from A to B successfully.   Perhaps this is similar to playing an exercise with 5 fingers on the piano, moving successfully from one key to the next, without allowing the knuckles to collapse. 

I prefer to say ‘don’t allow the knuckles to collapse’ rather than say ‘align the knuckles constantly’ because this very act could allow some stiffness in, so focussed the student would be in holding the knuckles up.  Something I’ve noticed, especially so with adult piano students, is how the shoulders can raise while intensely focussing on some aspect of their playing.

(As a side note and at the risk of being really annoying, (and I apologise in advance for this;  you are welcome to ignore this suggestion) but can I just add that by saying, “but in my experience focusing on NOT doing something is usually doomed to failure.” you are very likely limiting yourself by your own beliefs.  The act of saying and believing this will pretty much ensure you are correct in your thoughts.)

[keypeg]

On these thoughts.  If someone says "Don't do X.", then I am thinking so much about X, I'll end up doing it, when I might not have done so at all otherwise.  In fact, that has happened to me with some teachers early on.  Meanwhile, where I have poor habits, the number one thing I need to learn is how to do the good habit, and I can only start practising it when I do   know what it is that I am to do, so that I can start doing it.  I'm in massive remediation, so I have found out what things work, because I've been doing it for a while.

Some efforts may actually cause problems.  If you try to keep your fingertips square, because you were told to do that, you might tense your hand in weird ways.  If you're scared of hitting a black note that is not to be played, and stretch the non-playing finger way up, ahead of time, you can create tension in the hand.  If you don't know you can angle your hand different ways. etc.

Meanwhile a thing somewhere else can cause a problem.  Poor balance in the lower torso can cause a tense back can cause something wonky in the little finger: but because you're worried about the little finger, and no matter how much you fuss about it, nothing changes, because the problem is actually about shifting your weight on the bench.  etc.

In his other question, the OP stated that he is mostly self-taught.  We don't know what tools he has, and it might be good to see this teacher's own hand doing the same thing, in case we can get some clues from that.

[timothy42b]

Meanwhile a thing somewhere else can cause a problem.  Poor balance in the lower torso can cause a tense back can cause something wonky in the little finger: but because you're worried about the little finger, and no matter how much you fuss about it, nothing changes, because the problem is actually about shifting your weight on the bench.  etc.

Yes.  That is the main problem I have with "don't do that."  If "that" is caused by some other fault, very common in the brass playing world, then "not doing that" will cause some other symptom to appear.  Usually. 

[timothy42b]

(As a side note and at the risk of being really annoying, (and I apologise in advance for this;  you are welcome to ignore this suggestion) but can I just add that by saying, “but in my experience focusing on NOT doing something is usually doomed to failure.” you are very likely limiting yourself by your own beliefs.  The act of saying and believing this will pretty much ensure you are correct in your thoughts.)

There is some truth to this.  I am becoming more aware of beliefs that limit people, including myself, especially since reading Carol Dweck's writings recently. 

I am also analytical by nature, not intuitive, and have had little success with Inner Tennis approaches, but they clearly work well for some people. 

Are you familiar with the Haney project?  You can watch hours of it on youtube but here's a quick summary.

Charles Barkley has a terrible golf swing.  There is a major fault in it, such that when he tries to hit the ball he bends forward and runs out of room, stops midswing and straightens up, then completes the swing and mishits the ball.  But he loves golf. 

He is a world class athlete, with coordination most of us can't even comprehend, and the work ethic to practice at an intensity few can match.  So he went to Haney, widely acknowledged as one of the top golf instructors in the world.  The rest makes entertaining TV, but the bottom line is they failed.  He built a decent swing on the practice range, and when he plays golf he reverts to his bad habit every time.  (Even Tiger Woods makes fun of him, mimicking his swing.) 

[timothy42b]

It might be useful for Psykopili to make a video of his / her hand playing the same chord, from the same angle, so as to get some extra clues.  I'm playing on a hunch here.

We have the same hunch. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Just remove some notes and see if the same problem occurs. Play two of the three in all combinations and if need be even play just a single note while maintaining some kind of expansion. You could even get him to do it standing up and sitting lower at the piano than normally to see the effect on his hand. Also experiment with flattening the fingers a little more it may reduce tension. All this investigation may get him to consider what is happening in his hand. The contact of the note with his thumb looks slightly peculiar to me, too much at the top tip. Also feel his hand and check to see whether it is too tense while expanding.

[adodd81802]

They sort of look like they are playing too high at the piano - the arm going upwards.

Maybe lower their seat, and have them rest their hand over their knee initially to create the arch shape their hand should naturally have.

Also their wrist should be more in line with the hand, rather than the curve there. I think the fingers is the end result of the other issues

It seems that they are playing the chord from the fingers only when it should be coming from the arm I think