Which of these three have I to choose? Help me please.

[vladimirdounin]

Three of my students want to play the same short piece at a concert. I do not know which of these three to choose for public performance?

Please advise.

And what would you recommend to fix in the music of the other two? What are their problems?

For listening simply click on link.


Thank you in anticipation!

Vladimir


Student A https://yadi.sk/d/tvtlkqfIltTwZA

Student B https://yadi.sk/d/uzJG3E3wh4SrDg

Student C https://yadi.sk/d/XGcXFgKtiYs2nw

Vladimir Dounin

[dogperson]

On another forum, the OP has indicated this a repeat post from 2006

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=22203.msg247848#msg247848

[vladimirdounin]

On another forum, the OP has indicated this a repeat post from 2006

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=22203.msg247848#msg247848

What kind of musician are you and what can you teach your students if you cannot distinguish Tchaikovsky (Pastoral scene from his opera The Queen of Spades - Duet Prilepa and Milovzor) from Clementi's sonatina?

[dogperson]

What kind of musician are you and what can you teach your students if you cannot distinguish Tchaikovsky (Pastoral scene from his opera The Queen of Spades - Duet Prilepa and Milovzor) from Clementi's sonatina?

YOU are the one that posted on PianoWorld that this was a duplicate thread from historical Piano Street.  You further stated this was all a game, as the internet  a game!!!!

https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2825299/which-of-these-three-have-i-to-choose-help-me-please.html#Post2825299

[vladimirdounin]

YOU are the one that posted on PianoWorld that this was a duplicate thread from historical Piano Street.  You further stated this was all a game, as the internet  a game!!!!

https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2825299/which-of-these-three-have-i-to-choose-help-me-please.html#Post2825299

I do not see: what did you prove quoting my post?

The 2006 post was about Clementi. The 2019 post is about Tchaikovsky.

Why I should not post my new Tchaikovsky post,  if I posted Clementi in 2006?

Where is logic in your attack at me?

[keypeg]

I understood that the link to the 2006 thread had to do with a similar or same idea, using a different piece, and highlighting discussion at that time.

[vladimirdounin]

I understood that the link to the 2006 thread had to do with a similar or same idea, using a different piece, and highlighting discussion at that time.

Somebody did not believe that there are 3 my different students and said to me: "It is you". I did not deny that it was me with the absolute the same tempo and rhythm, only the Intensity is different.  I wanted to show in this way: how important the Intensity is! Nothing is changed, except the Intensity,  and whole music is turned into garbage.

If I wanted to cheat seriously, do you think that I am not able to change EVERYTHING in my way to play (if my goal was just to make people to believe in my 3 students)?

I referred to the 2006 test-recording (by the way NO ONE objected this test in 2006 like today in 2019) because in 2006 somebody DID NOT BELIEVE that both recordings are mine. He said that here definitely TWO DIFFERENT persons play this sonatina.

This looked a fun for me. One says: it is you. Another says: it can not be you.

[themeandvariation]

  "One says: it is you. Another says: it can not be you."


Vlad, on this philosophical conundrum of whether it is 'you' or not,  our resident fraud czar, Mr. Podesta, will be on the case, shortly.

[vladimirdounin]

  "One says: it is you. Another says: it can not be you."


Vlad, on this philosophical conundrum of whether it is 'you' or not,  our resident fraud czar, Mr. Podesta, will be on the case, shortly.

Well, let us wait to hear his opinion on this matter.

[sucom]

Hi Vladimir

Out of the three, I think I prefer the first one, Student A because, without going into too much detail, it sounds smoother and more legato and flows a little more nicely.

I don't have a problem with whether the player is you or not for all three renditions (although all sound similar in many ways). 

[vladimirdounin]

Hi Vladimir

Out of the three, I think I prefer the first one, Student A because, without going into too much detail, it sounds smoother and more legato and flows a little more nicely.

I don't have a problem with whether the player is you or not for all three renditions (although all sound similar in many ways).

Nice to read: our tastes coincide.

All three rendition are similar in everything but Intensity on purpose. I tried my best not to change anything else to show: how important the Intensity is.

[brogers70]

"I think intensity is one of the most important factors in performance. By intensity I mean (insert your definition).....Here is an example of my playing a piece without intensity (insert link).......And here I have tried to play the same piece in exactly the same way, except that I've added as much intensity as I can (insert link). Do you agree that adding intensity makes the performance much better? What do you think?"

If you'd written your original post(s) like this, you'd have avoided all the wrangling; or at least all the wrangling would be about "intensity", not about whether you were really choosing between different students.

[vladimirdounin]

"I think intensity is one of the most important factors in performance. By intensity I mean (insert your definition).....Here is an example of my playing a piece without intensity (insert link).......And here I have tried to play the same piece in exactly the same way, except that I've added as much intensity as I can (insert link). Do you agree that adding intensity makes the performance much better? What do you think?"

If you'd written your original post(s) like this, you'd have avoided all the wrangling; or at least all the wrangling would be about "intensity", not about whether you were really choosing between different students.

"I think intensity is one of the most important factors in performance".  Who cares what do I think? The extreme importance of intensity is a well established fact confirmed by studies of leading universities. The last research was done in 2003 by Yale University.  All pianists play the same notes on the same beat, they can not modify these two.  So,  all the difference is their dynamics. And the most important part of dynamics is intensity: individual strength of EACH note. In music, the intensity has the same function as a correct stress in the words of spoken language.

A - merica, Amer-I-ca, Americ-A - all of these are wrong. Only Am-E-rica is right.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to play  "without intensity" like it is impossible to speak without stresses in the words. Intensity only can be right or wrong, even if we play harpsichord or organ. On instruments without key sensitivity, the function of intensity is given to agogic (using tiny increases of the duration of certain notes instead of increasing dynamic stress). If we increase the duration of certain vowels in spoken language, it substitutes the dynamic stresses effectively.

The problem is that "professional musicians" are brainwashed by wrong training: for them ANY stress in any musical words is equally acceptable, and they deny even the existence of musical words itself.

At the same time the normal audience is NOT brainwashed at all, they are used to TRADITIONAL stresses in musical words known to humans for thousands of years.

Therefore, "wild" branches of musical art (folk, pop, rock etc) have no problem with understanding of their music, when the "cultivated" music of classic musicians is usually rejected by masses. Before the start of "industrial" musical education with its stamping the same musicians with the same defect (denying intensity=wrong intensity) crowds were waiting outdoor for weeks to listen to new oratorio, opera and even to their favourite pianist.

We students were paid to substitute people during the night  in a live line on the street for THREE YEARS LONG (Van Cliburn). Other people died trying to get into the concert hall climbing outside the building, etc. This attitude towards classic music is gone because of the WRONG language of modern musicians. 

With my musical puzzles I am trying to trigger at least curiosity in modern classic pianists. To answer my elementary question: "What is different? Why these two performances do not sound the same?", they have to discover for them the HUGE WORLD of intensity absolutely unknown to them and to their text books.

Unfortunately, the irritation prevails instead of interest.

[keypeg]

The irritation comes from the extraneous things.  Every time you write about the wrong teachings that a vague set of musicians are supposed to have, and the self-praise of how superior were in your country, this turns people off.  I don't know whether it is cultural - whether this kind of tone attracts people to make them want to listen from what you are used it - here it is a turn-off.  It moves people away from curiosity.  I'm still here despite this.  Grandiose statements about groups who are "brainwashed", when none of us can know what everyone is taught (again).  What for?  How does that help you bring across anything?

Which do you want to do?  Bring across musical ideas?  Or discuss what masses of people are supposedly learning wrong?  Education across the world, or educate?  The constant duality of the two messages cancel each other out.

[keypeg]

Other people died trying to get into the concert hall climbing outside the building, etc. This attitude towards classic music is gone because of the WRONG language of modern musicians. 

Because you saw people die trying to get into concert halls where you were, in your past, does not mean that attitudes have changed negatively because you don't see that happening here.  I'm in my sixties.  Nobody did that when I was young or at any time in my memory.   What I am seeing is a much greater interest and involvement in classical music, esp. among the younger generation, and much more than in the past.  That doesn't mean that they necessarily frequent concert halls.  In fact, for most of my adult life I couldn't afford the price of those tickets.  That is, once I lived somewhere, where there even was a concert hall.

Why do you think some of us are learning at older ages, and why do you think students hang out on the Internet?  Because of the opportunity.  By the same token, we can listen to music  of all kinds to our hearts' content, music of our own choices rather than what some radio station decides that we're supposed to like and what sells.  This has nothing to do with performances choices.

[vladimirdounin]

The irritation comes from the extraneous things.  Every time you write about the wrong teachings that a vague set of musicians are supposed to have, and the self-praise of how superior were in your country, this turns people off.  I don't know whether it is cultural - whether this kind of tone attracts people to make them want to listen from what you are used it - here it is a turn-off.  It moves people away from curiosity.  I'm still here despite this.  Grandiose statements about groups who are "brainwashed", when none of us can know what everyone is taught (again).  What for?  How does that help you bring across anything?

Which do you want to do?  Bring across musical ideas?  Or discuss what masses of people are supposedly learning wrong?  Education across the world, or educate?  The constant duality of the two messages cancel each other out.

1.  "and the self-praise of how superior were in your country" -

No one is perfect, everyone deserves criticism for something. However, the criticism must be honest.

I never "self-praised" that I was "superior" in my country. There are many wonderful pianists in Russia and it is very difficult to even be equal among them, let alone be "superior" among them. No need to attribute to me what I have never said and could not say.

I talked about my successful concert trade (artistic agency) in order to confirm that I hear well: which artists are attractive to the public, and which artists are not. Because without this ability to distinguish between artists, any entrepreneur will go bankrupt. I have not done that.

2.  If I hear that a person says "tomorr-O-w" instead of“ tom-O-rrow ”and“ Arg-E-ntina ”instead of“ Argent-I-na ”, I already know how he was taught for sure.

I have already posted dozens of “double recordings” here, explaining exactly which mistakes pianists usually make in these works. However, not a single pianist has posted in response his recording of these most popular works, saying with this: “Listen! I play it like this, differently and it sounds good as well.”

 This is the normal communication of musicians through their music.

Instead, I read only the mere verbal assurances that these errors never occur at all.

[timothy42b]

However, not a single pianist has posted in response his recording of these most popular works, saying with this: “Listen! I play it like this, differently and it sounds good as well.”

 This is the normal communication of musicians through their music.

Yes, that is true, but only within their peer group/community.

You are not part of that group because you have alienated them.  keypeg and others have tried to explain to you how you can change that but you resist every attempt, in the certainty you have it right. 

[compline]

Yes, that is true, but only within their peer group/community.

You are not part of that group because you have alienated them.  keypeg and others have tried to explain to you how you can change that but you resist every attempt, in the certainty you have it right.

Yes, and I think that if any of the professional pianists here posted their interpretation of the suggested music , Vladimir would only find fault with it.  So what is his  point.

[vladimirdounin]

Yes, and I think that if any of the professional pianists here posted their interpretation of the suggested music , Vladimir would only find fault with it.  So what is his  point.

No one hears all own mistakes. So, EACH of us needs somebody else opinion, criticism, corrections, etc. There is no reason to be afraid of it. Of course, I am able to find some mistakes in any performance but you can do the same as well. It is normal and it is useful.

My teacher asked anyone and was surprised to hear a very useful corrections from a cloak-roam attendant,  farmers, firefighters, etc.  Any different point of view is valuable for each artist.  We do not play for professional musicians - these nasty people never pay for tickets. We MUST know the opinion of non-professionals.

I criticize only if I can help and show: how to play the same better. And I do it always. Therefore, there is no one reason do be afraid of musical discussions.

[timothy42b]

No one hears all own mistakes. So, EACH of us needs somebody else opinion, criticism, corrections, etc.

This is at the same time the most insightful comment I've ever seen from you, and also a classic example of Dunning-Kruger at work.

You've been making the same communication mistakes since 2006.  People on this and the other forum have been patiently, courteously, professionally, gently pointing out how you can do better.  You reject every attempt.

Why should we think you would do any different with musical advice than you do with communication advice? 

[keypeg]

Thank you for your response and explanation, Vladimir.  Please be aware that I gave my feedback in case it might help you in regard to the irritation you're seeing to your puzzlement.

I talked about my successful concert trade (artistic agency) in order to confirm that I hear well: ........

From what you are saying, you are trying to create trust and confidence in your expertise through your anecdote.  That is your purpose.  But this approach does not have that desired effect on an international Internet culture, mostly Western.  Here's why:

On the Internet, anybody can claim anything.  In general, on a site where there are serious people, they look for the facts, ideas, demonstrations, and arguments by their own merit.  Those with knowledge will judge based on their knowledge and the logic. Those with less knowledge will try to get a feel for plausibility.  HOWEVER, as soon as a poster writes grandiose things about themselves, even if true, these are things that snake oil salesmen, and those out for admiration will do.  You'll be taking on the tone and style of a huckster, and the tone itself will take away from the plausibility of what you are saying.  I feel that one reason that you are getting resistance and hostility is not due to what you are trying to present, but due to the things you are saying in order to be believed.

Here is an analogy.  We'll invent a fictional country.  In that country, anyone who is a liar is condemned to wear a tall yellow hat.  A stranger comes into the country, and he wants to make himself known.  He is short, so he decides to wear a tall hat, and since he wants it to be bright and stand out, he makes it a yellow tall hat.  And then he can't figure out why nobody will believe him - because he doesn't know the association people have with tall yellow hats.

[vladimirdounin]

Thank you for your response and explanation, Vladimir.  Please be aware that I gave my feedback in case it might help you in regard to the irritation you're seeing to your puzzlement.
From what you are saying, you are trying to create trust and confidence in your expertise through your anecdote.  That is your purpose.  But this approach does not have that desired effect on an international Internet culture, mostly Western.  Here's why:

On the Internet, anybody can claim anything.  In general, on a site where there are serious people, they look for the facts, ideas, demonstrations, and arguments by their own merit.  Those with knowledge will judge based on their knowledge and the logic. Those with less knowledge will try to get a feel for plausibility.  HOWEVER, as soon as a poster writes grandiose things about themselves, even if true, these are things that snake oil salesmen, and those out for admiration will do.  You'll be taking on the tone and style of a huckster, and the tone itself will take away from the plausibility of what you are saying.  I feel that one reason that you are getting resistance and hostility is not due to what you are trying to present, but due to the things you are saying in order to be believed.

Here is an analogy.  We'll invent a fictional country.  In that country, anyone who is a liar is condemned to wear a tall yellow hat.  A stranger comes into the country, and he wants to make himself known.  He is short, so he decides to wear a tall hat, and since he wants it to be bright and stand out, he makes it a yellow tall hat.  And then he can't figure out why nobody will believe him - because he doesn't know the association people have with tall yellow hats.

I do not lose hope to find at least a few people who would be interested in talking seriously about the intensity and its practical application in performance and pedagogy.

I am completely indifferent to the popularity or lack of it among people who are not interested in this topic.

[keypeg]

I do not lose hope to find at least a few people who would be interested in talking seriously about the intensity and its practical application in performance and pedagogy.

I am completely indifferent to the popularity or lack of it among people who are not interested in this topic.

You quoted my post, but "your response" has nothing to do with what I wrote.  I'll trust that your initial concern or puzzlement over "irritation" no longer exists, and you don't want to find answers on that matter.  That is what I had answered.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with people's interest in the topic.