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A revolutionary new interpretation of the world's most famous musical work. (Read 1985 times)

Offline vladimirdounin

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A revolutionary new interpretation of the world's most famous musical work.



In the past, I believed that the most important thing in performance is as much emotion, passion and expressiveness as possible.   Because only these three words are repeated again and again at any master class of any celebrity. 


However, modern truly scientific studies conducted by leading universities of the world have proven that this is just silly nonsense.  The last big study on this topic was conducted by Yale University in 2003, as far as I know.

In fact, the most important thing in performing  is completely different.  The most important is the elementary literacy of our musical speech: the proper emphasis in  the "musical words", historically (if not genetically)   embedded in the minds of every person on earth.   In scientific  circles, these stresses in musical words are called INTENSITY.

After all, all competent pianists of the world play absolutely the same notes on the same beat of music. And the best of pianists differs from the worst only by the INTENSITY of each of the notes he plays. Anyone who has a basic understanding of music understands that all these pianists have nothing more to differ from each other. After all, music is "A system consisting of sounds of a certain pitch and strength, organized in a certain way in time."

The pianist has no right to change the pitch of the sounds and their organization in time indicated by the composer. All that remains is “a certain strength - INTENSITY” of each note, which is currently not indicated by the composers (although in vain).


Do not confuse this concept of  correct stresses - "INTENSITY"  with a more familiar to the most of musicians loudness - "VOLUME".
The meaning of the volume in the notes is known to everyone:   ff = very loud, f =loud, p = quiet,  pp = very quiet, and so on.

(ff) T - O - R - O - N - T - O ;   (f) T-O-R-O-N-T-O ;   (p) TORONTO;  (pp) toronto - these all  examples are about VOLUME.

 Toront - O;    T-O-ronto;   Tor-O-nto  - these  examples  are  about stresses, called  INTENSITY in music.


Correct stresses  in the words of the spoken language or in the words of the musical language are not yet indicated in any way.  According to many scientists, this is completely impossible. Fortunately, they are wrong in this statement. The exact, fine indication of accents and softenings in musical words is not only possible, but necessary.  At the same time, it is absolutely not complicated and not difficult even for  VERY BEGINNERS.

Like many musicians around me, I have been doing this for many decades with excellent results.  And I share this wonderful way of communication between musicians (e.g. teacher and student) WITH  EVERYONE who is interested.


If we utter musical words with the right accents, then all the  listeners on the globe understand us and love our music. This is proved by the international popularity of performers of all musical genres.

However, If we distort musical words familiar to our public and say them always with a "soldier" stress  on the first syllable (first beat), our listeners reject us and our music.


This is proved by the disappearing globally interest in classical music with the start of mass education, or rather, stamping of classical performers at "music factories" - schools, conservatories, etc.  Because ALL OF THEM  teach students to play precisely and only with this "soldiery" stress on the  beat "ONE,  taken  simply from instructions for military  brass bands.


For army commanders and soldiers, this drum beat and emphasis on the  count “ONE"  are really necessary for all soldiers to step with their left foot at the same time during the parade.

But in music intended for everything that is above the belt line (for the heart, for the soul, for the mind), this silly accent always on the beat "ONE" is ridiculous and disgusting.

Indeed, in all human languages ​​(and our music is only one of human languages), stress can be on ANY syllable of the word: on the first, and on the last and on the middle one:   E-ngland,  , Am-E-rica, Argent-I - na,  Urugy-A-y,  etc.


Today I finish our conversation on this topic with my "REVOLUTIONARY NEW INTERPRETATION" of the world's most famous musical work. So far, I play it on the piano with only one finger. But I promise you to continue our conversation and in the future to play with all my fingers and even with both hands.

I wish you all a pleasant listening!

Please,  tell me where my music is better, and where is worse:
on "A" versions or on "B" versions? Thanks in advance for this !

A1 https://yadi.sk/d/H8ODGg42DujdWg HP

B1 https://yadi.sk/d/qii0SlGGmBUrqg HN

A2 https://yadi.sk/d/5k3Ip0terBDr1Q LP

B2 https://yadi.sk/d/JFLFrAEqCPjjgQ LN


B3 https://yadi.sk/d/tl3dW9vNMrNt2w HN


A 3. Chopin (already with two hands) Nocturne in E b Major
 https://yadi.sk/d/y-eS8tTmBHS64w

B 4. Chopin (also with two hands) Nocturne in E b Major
 https://yadi.sk/d/uQiphKUxwhtufg


Offline vmishka

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Would you please provide references to the scientific studies you mention (e.g., Yale 2003) and articles/books which talk specifically about 'intensity' in the interpretation of music and how to choose where the intensity goes.

Thank you.

Offline keypeg

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In the past, I believed that the most important thing in performance is as much emotion, passion and expressiveness as possible. 
How long ago was it that you believed this to be so?
Quote
  Because only these three words are repeated again and again at any master class of any celebrity. 
Are you telling us that you based your choices of musical interpretation solely on the words of celebrities giving masterclasses?  Did you not have any teachers to guide you to other possibilities?  Or did your teachers also tell you that performances must be full of passion and expression, so that you had to change your mind in recent times?

Quote
[discussion on intensity] ...Like many musicians around me, I have been doing this for many decades with excellent results. 
How does this relate to what you told us in the beginning, that in the past you believed that passion and expressiveness were important?

Quote
Indeed, in all human languages ​​(and our music is only one of human languages), stress can be on ANY syllable of the word: on the first, and on the last and on the middle one:   E-ngland,  , Am-E-rica, Argent-I - na,  Urugy-A-y,  etc.

This is true for many languages, but not all.  But I understand your point.

Offline vladimirdounin

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Would you please provide references to the scientific studies you mention (e.g., Yale 2003) and articles/books which talk specifically about 'intensity' in the interpretation of music and how to choose where the intensity goes.

Thank you.

I did not read all these studies self because I am NOT interested to read such and similar studies with the same conclusion: "The Intensity is extremely and even crucially important but it is IMPOSSIBLE to mark Intensity,  therefore it is impossible to research Intensity and therefore it is impossible to teach intensity".

This information I received from my adult student with a Law background who wanted to patent my method and develop some business on this base. He searched everything and reported to me his results.  I  was not and am not interested in financial potential of my ideas because I want just to spread them a.s.a.p.  Even  a bit later it will be  too late by natural reasons. 

However I know that no one of known to me Universities and Conservatories is interested even to speak on the Intensity topic.

I send to ALL of them letter with my offer to pay of  $ 1000  IN ADVANCE

to any of their professor for indication of Intensity in any way he/she wants  in the first 10 notes of any musical work (by their choice). I told that I am conducting a research on Intensity and the ways of teaching it.

No one in the world was interested.

I do not know and no one of familiar to me persons (including book authors) knows any article or research on Intensity with positive results.  The Intensity DOES NOT EXIST even in definitions of Music that are available on Internet.  It is absolutely  unknown and consequentially ignored in teaching practice of  modern world as well.


Offline vladimirdounin

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How long ago was it that you believed this to be so?Are you telling us that you based your choices of musical interpretation solely on the words of celebrities giving masterclasses?  Did you not have any teachers to guide you to other possibilities?  Or did your teachers also tell you that performances must be full of passion and expression, so that you had to change your mind in recent times?
How does this relate to what you told us in the beginning, that in the past you believed that passion and expressiveness were important?

This is true for many languages, but not all.  But I understand your point.

You look a very experienced interrogator. So it is dangerous to lie to you without serious reasons (by the way, I have no reasons for lie in our case).

"How long ago was it that you believed this to be so?"

- 50+ years ago. But I do not want be immediately rejected by all my readers because of my disbelief in their "Holy Faith" in untrue facts and theories

"Are you telling us that you based your choices of musical interpretation solely on the words of celebrities giving masterclasses?"

- Not at all.  I hate this CHEATING instead of TEACHING.  These "master classes" are usually just commercial event to make money out of nothing with a zero result for a student.

"Did you not have any teachers to guide you to other possibilities? "

- Thanks to heavens! Yes. I had.

"Or did your teachers also tell you that performances must be full of passion and expression, so that you had to change your mind in recent times?"

- Lessons with really good teachers were full of much more serious work on particular problems of the student (me) and musical work.  Emotions come naturally from the music, when you understand it properly. Expression comes from your ability to pass your understanding of music on your audience.

"so that you had to change your mind in recent times?"

- I rather improve my knowledge on daily basis but do not know and feel any reason to change my mind on basic points.

"How does this relate to what you told us in the beginning, that in the past you believed that passion and expressiveness were important?"

- Bad teachers do not know: what to teach and how to teach? They substitute even the very basics in their "teaching"  with a loud words about emotion and expressiveness. They can not afford anything else at their lessons except this junk (if we compare it to the serious work with a student).

 - At the beginning I had mostly such teachers. I had a lot of teachers in my life  because my family had to relocate often (due to the work of my father - military medical doctor). 

"This is true for many languages, but not all.  But I understand your point."

- I am going to answer this line to many of my opponents  (who say the same) at once, and not verbally but musically.

I will do recordings of Finnish, Hungarian etc. songs with a "soldiery" accent only on beat "one" (like in their spoken languages) and in normal, natural for ANY music (music is international just because it is UNITED for the whole world and all nations in it).   

Offline keypeg

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Quote from: Vladimir
You look a very experienced interrogator.
No, I look like a student whose trust you lost because you told tales to introduce topics in an indirect way - for example when you told us of your two or three students, when it was you playing.  So now I don't know which is "interesting tale" and which is fact.  It makes things confusing.  Thank you for answering so as to take away that confusion.

Quote
- 50+ years ago. But I do not want be immediately rejected by all my readers because of my disbelief in their "Holy Faith" in untrue facts and theories.
This in fact makes it believable and gives an opposite effect from rejection.  Truth has a way of doing that.

 
Quote
"Are you telling us that you based your choices of musical interpretation solely on the words of celebrities giving masterclasses?"

- Not at all.  I hate this CHEATING instead of TEACHING.  These "master classes" are usually just commercial event to make money out of nothing with a zero result for a student. 
Good, that makes much more sense.  I've seen a few masterclasses on-line and quickly zipped past.  There are some exceptions.  For example, Isaac Stern in China,for example,  in the clip where he teaches about "follow-through" (I'll see if I can find it) which was immediately useful and practical.  Menuhin's "Six Lessons" originally aired on the BBC can be found on-line and give very practical advice: above all on the natural use of the body, and to maintain that natural use once you bring in the instrument.  Neither of these were romanticized waffle.

Quote
- Lessons with really good teachers were full of much more serious work on particular problems of the student (me) and musical work.  Emotions come naturally from the music, when you understand it properly. Expression comes from your ability to pass your understanding of music on your audience.
This sounds very much like a conversation that I had with my first-ever teacher, by which time I was an adult of mature age, and the instrument was not piano.  I argued that if I am given technique and knowledge, I can bring out emotion in a listener, but if I start with emotion, my body will struggle with what it feels and not much of anything will come out.  For example, if "growing passion" is brought out by crescendo (as one element), I need to know "from how quiet to how loud", and how to physically bring about that crescendo so as to make the instrument produce it.  I am using dynamics to keep it simple.

Quote
- Bad teachers do not know: what to teach and how to teach? They substitute even the very basics in their "teaching"  with a loud words about emotion and expressiveness. They can not afford anything else at their lessons except this junk (if we compare it to the serious work with a student).
 

This is a problem especially for adult students, where the tendency is to push faster, with the wrong idea that if we understand intellectually, we'll be able to produce.  There is in this also the ability to teach.  Some teachers know how to produce effective music themselves, but do not understand how they themselves were taught, what natural abilities they may have which they must bring to their students otherwise, what order to bring this about, or what they need to do by steps and observation.  I'd say we may be on similar pages here.

Quote
"This is true for many languages, but not all.  But I understand your point."
I wrote that I understood your point.  In fact I agree with the point.  However, not all languages inflect on different syllables.  For example, when I learned French, I had to learn to keep the inflection always on the last syllable.  French feels like a "super legato" language and often has an almost "straight line" feeling to it.  I appreciate Russian for the fact that the phonemes (the sound symbols) precisely reflect each sound, even to the point of the (myakisnak?) - that little doohicky that tells you whether to bring the consonant further back in your throat - so that you can "sight read" Russian without understanding a word, but you will be totally guessing about which syllable to stress (your point).  English phonemes are ridiculous, of course: though, through, tough, bough.

One of my areas of expertise is as a linguist, and with my musical interest, I have looked at this side - especially pronunciation.  I've developed a theory for speaking a language without an accent by going through some stages of a baby, which chants "dadadada" with rhythms and inflections.  I helped one adult student, who wanted to get pronunciation in his new language, and was willing to work with me --- and we worked by "humming the rhythm of the sentence" before speaking the words of the sentence.  I think this is the other side of the very same coin.

Btw, for the music education that I did manage to get in recent years, I was never taught this "beat one" thing.

Offline vladimirdounin

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Would you please provide references to the scientific studies you mention (e.g., Yale 2003) and articles/books which talk specifically about 'intensity' in the interpretation of music and how to choose where the intensity goes.

Thank you.

I found an old letter from my student (below), who did serious research on Internet regarding the Intensity with these references:


To:
vladimir54maresfield@gmail.com
,
vladimirdounin@yahoo.ca
,
vladimir@musicintensity.com
Cc:


Feb. 14, 2013 at 8:55 a.m.

Here is the complete research paper on music intensity

http://diginole.lib.fsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3292&context=etd

Thanks

Ken

On 2013-02-14, at 8:48 AM, "K. C." <rade_3@hotmail.com> wrote:

http://digitool.fcla.edu/view/action/singleViewer.do?dvs=1360849576715~606&locale=en_US&VIEWER_URL=/view/action/singleViewer.do?&DELIVERY_RULE_ID=7&adjacency=N&application=DIGITOOL-3&frameId=1&usePid1=true&usePid2=true

Thanks
 

Offline vladimirdounin

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Here are some other researches on Intensity (thanks to my student - he sent me these links)

To:
vladimir54maresfield@gmail.com
,
vladimirdounin@yahoo.ca
,
vladimir@musicintensity.com
Cc:


Feb. 14, 2013 at 8:50 a.m.

http://digitool.fcla.edu/R/4VAV525VP9AH5146QC1R2EQLGLEILQJQDAE6I784T5XQRBHS98-01502?func=dbin-jump-full&object_id=123585&local_base=GEN01&pds_handle=GUEST

Thanks

Ken

On 2013-02-14, at 8:48 AM, "K. C." <rade_3@hotmail.com> wrote:

http://digitool.fcla.edu/view/action/singleViewer.do?dvs=1360849576715~606&locale=en_US&VIEWER_URL=/view/action/singleViewer.do?&DELIVERY_RULE_ID=7&adjacency=N&application=DIGITOOL-3&frameId=1&usePid1=true&usePid2=true

Thanks


Offline vladimirdounin

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Would you please provide references to the scientific studies you mention (e.g., Yale 2003) and articles/books which talk specifically about 'intensity' in the interpretation of music and how to choose where the intensity goes.

Thank you.

I replied all the messages. You can try vladimir_and_ music@yahoo.com        VD

Offline keypeg

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Vladimir, have you tried clicking on your own links in order to test that they work?  When I try, they go to a kind of error or not found message. If those links were generated in 2013 they may no longer work.

Offline vladimirdounin

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Vladimir, have you tried clicking on your own links in order to test that they work?  When I try, they go to a kind of error or not found message. If those links were generated in 2013 they may no longer work.

These links are "NOT my own". You can see that they are sent to me in 2013 by my student with Law background, who was going to patent this method.  He did this research to prove that nothing like this was invented BEFORE me.

I tried one of these links and it said that this content is archived and I have to get through the archive (as far as I remember, it was Florida University).

I clicked it right now again and pasted their response below:

"We're sorry, but the collection or title you're attempting to view may no longer be accessible online.

If you'd like to search for similar items, try browsing the collections on the PALMM (Publication of Archival, Library & Museum Materials) website, or use the box below to search the digital collections of Florida's colleges and universities":

I am not really good in Internet searches, I prefer my piano.

As I told you before, ALL of these universities pointed extreme importance of the Intensity but came to stupid (because I know it for sure) conclusion that it is impossible to mark, research and teach the Intensity.

I invited and invite everyone to test MY method to mark, to research and to teach  the Intensity. I can not understand the panic around my invitation.

I repeat again: I do NOT need your names and addresses, your faces and anything else that can be used for identification.

 
I need:

1. Your disbelief or hatred towards my method. A severe skepticism is all right as well, all NEGATIVE emotions towards me are welcome!

2. I need anyone's recording of ANY classical music: from "Happy Birthday" to Balakirev's Islamey. I showed example already with my own "revolutionary new interpretation" of this song. Unfortunately it would look ridiculous if I will correct publicly my own mistakes. It is really not as interesting as should be.

3. I need an honesty from everyone in evaluation of the result. That's all.



 

Offline keypeg

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In one of your recent threads, you suggested that teachers become familiar with working on the Internet.  There are certain areas where you still need to get some familiarity, and some of us can help you in that task.  When giving links to information, it is a good idea to check that these links work before posting them, or shortly after posting.   This is a standard thing to do.

I also use the Internet professionally, including sharing information with colleagues and finding information and answers to problems.  Ensuring that your links are viable is one of the first steps.  It can happen that the info will appear viable to you, but not other parties, because of the countries they live in, the servers they use, or other factors.  But in the least, checking what you can yourself is a good thing to do.

This is intended to be helpful.

Offline vladimirdounin

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In one of your recent threads, you suggested that teachers become familiar with working on the Internet.  There are certain areas where you still need to get some familiarity, and some of us can help you in that task.  When giving links to information, it is a good idea to check that these links work before posting them, or shortly after posting.   This is a standard thing to do.

I also use the Internet professionally, including sharing information with colleagues and finding information and answers to problems.  Ensuring that your links are viable is one of the first steps.  It can happen that the info will appear viable to you, but not other parties, because of the countries they live in, the servers they use, or other factors.  But in the least, checking what you can yourself is a good thing to do.

This is intended to be helpful.

I DO NOT use the Internet professionally, rather occasionally, when I have some reason to  spend my time there.

I brought these letters from 2013 with these links just to eliminate suspicions that I simply "invented" a story about these researches on the Intensity.

I am not interested in these researches with a NEGATIVE conclusions about the "absolute impossibility to learn and teach the Intensity" because I learn and teach the Intensity for many decades. All what I want from Internet is an opportunity to share this ability with all who are interested. I do not see them yet. 

Offline vmishka

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I need:

1. Your disbelief or hatred towards my method. A severe skepticism is all right as well, all NEGATIVE emotions towards me are welcome!

2. I need anyone's recording of ANY classical music: from "Happy Birthday" to Balakirev's Islamey. I showed example already with my own "revolutionary new interpretation" of this song. Unfortunately it would look ridiculous if I will correct publicly my own mistakes. It is really not as interesting as should be.

3. I need an honesty from everyone in evaluation of the result. That's all.

In response to your request for anyone's recording of any classical music, I have attached a performance of Rachmaninov's Elegie Op 3 No 1. I do play this piece but I am not the pianist in this particular recording. Please use your methods and tell the group what, if anything, is good about the playing and what can be improved.

Offline vladimirdounin

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In response to your request for anyone's recording of any classical music, I have attached a performance of Rachmaninov's Elegie Op 3 No 1. I do play this piece but I am not the pianist in this particular recording. Please use your methods and tell the group what, if anything, is good about the playing and what can be improved.

Thank you very much! This is exactly what I am asking for.

My next steps: 1. I will do my traditional A. and B. recording of opposite ways of playing some particular places with the problems (if any) of this piece and bring them here.
                   
                       2. I will explain the exact difference between A and B and tell the ways to fix the problems.

So I need some time for this work.   

Offline vladimirdounin

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In response to your request for anyone's recording of any classical music, I have attached a performance of Rachmaninov's Elegie Op 3 No 1. I do play this piece but I am not the pianist in this particular recording. Please use your methods and tell the group what, if anything, is good about the playing and what can be improved.

I need to discuss the situation with this performance.

I would like to have such a student. He (probably he is an adult male judging from the manner of playing) has a great potential to be a good pianist,  he has experience in performing, excellent  technical/mechanical skills on keyboard, he knows how to manage pedal, he is very inventive in dynamics, I can say a lot of good things else. However,  teacher is paid NOT for detecting good things  but for opposite: I have to detect lacks and fix them.  I guess that this student prepared this piece on his own and no one teacher ever heard his way to perform it.

And here is a big  problem.  I will never forget one almost adult student.  His mom was so exited with my with him lesson that she exclaimed in my presence : "How lucky we are that we came to such a great teacher! Do you like him, sonny?"

Sonny immediately answered: "No, mom! He is a very bad teacher. Did you hear what he wants from me? He says: play correct notes on right time.  And I want to play WRONG notes on WRONG time!"  I never saw him again.

If I had to do my job in an honest way with this guy, who is playing on that record, I, probably, will lose this student immediately by the same reason.  He obviously wants (or at least considers him self allowed) to play wrong notes and likes to play on wrong time.
If he had to play exam or competition I could find reasons for him to play exactly, what is written. But in our situation he will probably just quit lessons, if I point couple of dozens of wrong notes and timing on these 5 pages.

In real class I would suggest him to make RH and LH recordings separately and then to listen to these recording with the book in front of the eyes and with pencil in his hands to mark all discrepancies.  I am pretty sure that this recording is done by heart, from memory that is not too disciplined.

Another problem is that in my last posts I was focused on INTENSITY only.  Of course,  I can  point only Intensity problems in this recording but other pianists here could think that I simply do not hear other, much more serious problems.

I am interested to continue this work but I ask you to define our rules of the game for this particular recording.

All the best,

Vladimir

Offline keypeg

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"And I want to play WRONG notes on WRONG time!" 
I cannot imagine any student, especially an almost adult one, saying such a thing.  Is this illustrative, to make a point about right note, right time - or was there really such an unusual student?

Offline vladimirdounin

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I cannot imagine any student, especially an almost adult one, saying such a thing.  Is this illustrative, to make a point about right note, right time - or was there really such an unusual student?

I could not imagine as well before I heard EXACTLY  THESE  words in my class.  This is my reason to never forget him. This 16-18 years old gentleman is a real person,  he simply preferred another teacher, who did not annoy him with correct notes and rhythm.

By the way,  I could not believe my ears another time,  when a Head of Music Department of University told in his interview (that was broadcast a few years ago) that nowadays students do not perform exact text of the work  accurately in any way.  Therefore his "Department focuses solely on self-expression and emotion instead".

Offline vladimirdounin

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In response to your request for anyone's recording of any classical music, I have attached a performance of Rachmaninov's Elegie Op 3 No 1. I do play this piece but I am not the pianist in this particular recording. Please use your methods and tell the group what, if anything, is good about the playing and what can be improved.


I have not yet received instructions from you regarding the extent of my "freedom of speech" at my lesson with this student. What can I talk about and what can I not talk about (otherwise the student will run away).

 But I hope I have the right to tell: "What is an elegy?" in general.

I quote wiki: " An elegy is a sad poem, usually written to praise and express sorrow for someone who is dead. Although a speech at a funeral is a eulogy, you might later compose an elegy to someone you have loved and lost to the grave."


If I myself performed this elegy, I would imagine that this is my speech at a funeral ceremony about a wonderful and very important man for everyone present. I would remember all the best that I know about the deceased. I would speak with anger about how he was persecuted for his good deeds and how I hate those who brought him to death.

Finally. I would say that no one will ever be able to replace him in our hearts.


When I listened to this undoubtedly talented performance of the elegy on the recordings, I involuntarily remembered one story:

When one “big boss” in art died, institutions of all kinds of art were ordered to send a representative to the funeral ceremony with a mandatory performance and speech at this funeral in accordance with their specialization.

The circus sent the leader of its trade union, an acrobat, to this funeral.

Further events are described in the own words of this acrobat about his performance at the funeral:

“I scatter along the red carpet, do a triple flip in the air and, with a cry of “ voila ” land on the lid of the coffin. The funeral hall explodes with applause."


Offline vmishka

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I have not yet received instructions from you regarding the extent of my "freedom of speech" at my lesson with this student. What can I talk about and what can I not talk about (otherwise the student will run away).

You are free to discuss anything and everything you want. I purposely chose a recording that would allow you that freedom because I want to learn about your methods. I also thought that choosing music that I was sure you would be familiar with because you were trained in Russia would be appropriate. You are correct that this is an experienced adult male with good potential. The person has enough self-confidence that nothing you write will bother him in the least. Please say everything you want to say.

Offline vladimirdounin

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You are free to discuss anything and everything you want. I purposely chose a recording that would allow you that freedom because I want to learn about your methods. I also thought that choosing music that I was sure you would be familiar with because you were trained in Russia would be appropriate. You are correct that this is an experienced adult male with good potential. The person has enough self-confidence that nothing you write will bother him in the least. Please say everything you want to say.

All right. Let us start our FIRST LESSON.

Our goal to fix Wrong notes, Wrong timing, Wrong Intensity.

We can not do it for the whole piece at once but we can do it step by step.  Most difficult and always neglected is LEFT HAND, especially WEAK beats in LH.

Therefore our FIRST STEP is:

1. Play along with my recording of LH.  Please,  do NOT play softly  but only  a real FORTE stressing all the notes on weak beats  (on count TWO and count FOUR).

https://yadi.sk/d/bbldlAsrrUKhpQ

After it is done no less than 10 times

Make recording of your playing the same way without me, on your own
 but WITH METRONOME tempo 120 ( for one SIXTEEN note, so 2 clicks in each EIGTH note).  It must be a real FORTE with stressing beats 2 and 4.

Bring this recording here - it is your assignment No 1.

After this assignment is done - we go ahead to our new heights in music.

Thanks!

Vladimir


Offline vmishka

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Vladimir,

As I said, I am not the pianist on this recording and I have no way of reaching him at this time. The pianist will not be able to respond to you on this forum or submit other "takes" of this piece.

Just point out what is good and what you think needs to be fixed (mentioning your "rules", which ones were followed and which were not) and the rest of us on the forum can estimate how much help your approach will be to improving the performance of the piece.

Thank you.

Offline vmishka

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Vladimir,

As I said above, the pianist will not be making any more recordings at this point. You can structure your "lesson" any way you want to make your points. However, you should assume that the "student" followed your instructions (did the assignment) and absorbed what you are trying to teach and then move on with your "lesson."

I listened to your recording. What is the problem with the LH in the original recording? Why are you asking the student to play forte with strong accents on the weak beats? When the piece is redone at the end of your lessons, do you want accents on the weak beats because your rules state that those beats should have more INTENSITY? Please explain what you are trying to accomplish and then proceed logically with whatever you want to do to fully explain your methods.

Thank you.

Offline vladimirdounin

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Vladimir,

As I said, I am not the pianist on this recording and I have no way of reaching him at this time. The pianist will not be able to respond to you on this forum or submit other "takes" of this piece.

Just point out what is good and what you think needs to be fixed (mentioning your "rules", which ones were followed and which were not) and the rest of us on the forum can estimate how much help your approach will be to improving the performance of the piece.

Thank you.

Quote:  "I have no way of reaching him at this time"


I published these my rules a few times already in 2006-2007. However, I lost any interest to spend my time for this site after I understood that everything that I suggest will be reduced to verbal exchange only. Now, after 12 years it so easy for everyone to make and send recordings.

Imagine that this is a medical site. I suggest testing my new headache treatment device, assuring that the headache disappears within 2 minutes of using the device.

In response, no one wants to test the device. Without any test, they  just vote that the device is useless.

I have already explained several times that I have a very effective TEACHING method. But I never said that I have a set of magic words that replaces the work on the student and on his/her music.  No one set of magic words can substitute playing and listening to real music.

To demonstrate the method and its impact, I need a real student (without a name, address, appearance, etc. - I absolutely do not need it). Only in this case will the effect of the method be seen. Here should be student's playing BEFORE the lesson, and then playing AFTER the lesson (when short but effective assignment is done).


In my ads, I indicate: "Immediate result during a one-hour lesson or you do not pay at all". 
But I do not promise anyone any result from simply reading my last post on "pianostreet"


Offline vladimirdounin

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Vladimir,

As I said above, the pianist will not be making any more recordings at this point. You can structure your "lesson" any way you want to make your points. However, you should assume that the "student" followed your instructions (did the assignment) and absorbed what you are trying to teach and then move on with your "lesson."

I listened to your recording. What is the problem with the LH in the original recording? Why are you asking the student to play forte with strong accents on the weak beats? When the piece is redone at the end of your lessons, do you want accents on the weak beats because your rules state that those beats should have more INTENSITY? Please explain what you are trying to accomplish and then proceed logically with whatever you want to do to fully explain your methods.

Thank you.


I explained in my first commentary on this recording that it makes no sense to talk about Intensity before the fake notes and rhythm are corrected. 
It is impossible to make driving a car a delight if it has flat tires and diesel in a gas tank instead of gasoline.

The pianist on the record does not pay attention to many important notes and events in music. He simply never noticed them and they do not exist for him. This is the real reason for his insanely fast tempo in this funeral music. This is the same acrobat (from my story that I told here) that did triple flips over the lid of the coffin instead of  his serious speech at this sad ceremony.


My record, which I asked to play 10 times along with me, and then let me listen to the student’s independent recording — these are pills for treating the indicated disease of this pianist and diagnostic tool.  If I listen to the response recording, I will find out if he is cured or if some other medicine is needed.
These pills are not intended to replace ordinary food. Their purpose is to correct the problem in this particular patient.

When I worked as a university lecturer in a Western countries, I understood the main difference in educational systems in Russia and in the West. Noise from dozens of students at the Moscow Conservatory can be heard from a few blocks away from 7:00 AM to the 11:00 PM. In the universities of the West at ANY time, even inside of the building, there is dead silence.

Russian students prefer to play a lot of music. In the West, students prefer to read and talk about music. The result is known.

Offline keypeg

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I'm imagining that what Vladimir is doing  is since he has a concern about people emphasizing beat 1, and maybe also 3, he is evening this out by having the person stressing beats 2 and 4 like exercising a weak leg.

Offline vmishka

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The pianist on the record does not pay attention to many important notes and events in music. He simply never noticed them and they do not exist for him. This is the real reason for his insanely fast tempo in this funeral music. This is the same acrobat (from my story that I told here) that did triple flips over the lid of the coffin instead of his serious speech at this sad ceremony.

When I worked as a university lecturer in Western countries, I understood the main difference in educational systems in Russia and in the West. Noise from dozens of students at the Moscow Conservatory can be heard from a few blocks away from 7:00 AM to the 11:00 PM. In the universities of the West at ANY time, even inside of the building, there is dead silence.

Russian students prefer to play a lot of music. In the West, students prefer to read and talk about music. The result is known.

Vladimir,

I wish you the best of luck in advertising your revolutionary new teaching method to the world. As usual, you have simply managed to alienate everyone who is interested enough in your methods to try to give you a platform to actually discuss them. You did the same thing on Piano World.

You claim many times that you have already documented at least 25 of the 50 rules known to you. However, more than 250 of your posts are still archived and available for anyone to see, many of which were from the 2005-2007 era. There is nothing like 25 rules listed in your posts. Similarly, the rules don't exist in the 34 chapters of one book and 5 chapters of another book on the Russian literature site which you pointed me to (which can be translated reasonably well with Google translate). There are a lot of great stories there, but very little that is actually concrete about music interpretation.

I happen to agree that as a group, Russian pianists are wonderful. There are many examples. For example, Grigory Sokolov is one of my personal favorites. You have many wonderful stories from your days in Russia as a music student. However, the things you write on piano forums are subject to the same hyperbole that you criticize in the Russian acrobat at the funeral (look at your claim that students cannot be heard practicing at any time in a university outside of Russia).

You claim that the pianist in the recording I posted "does not pay attention to many important notes and events in music. He simply never noticed them and they do not exist for him." Also, you claim that he is taking an "insanely fast tempo." I will discuss this below and reveal the name of the pianist.

The English translation of the title of Rachmaninov's Op 3 No 1 is "Elegy." It is also interesting to note that the whole of Opus 3 was titled 'Morceaux de fantaisie.' You would know better than I the possible connotations of the word элегия in Russian. An elegy can certainly be funeral music. However, elegy can also refer to 'sadness, melancholy, or lamentation' without actually referring to a funeral. You are certainly free to use an image of a funeral when performing the piece yourself.

With regard to tempo, Rachmaninov wrote 'Moderato'; he didn't indicate Largo, or Lento, or even Adagio. Italian tempo indications do not necessarily match perfectly with metronome marks, but the Wikipedia Tempo page seems to suggest that Moderato is approximately 108-120, about the range of a 19th century Allegretto (which is much faster than what Mozart and Beethoven meant when they wrote Allegretto; Charles Rosen points out that in the classical era, Allegretto was about 76.)

Does the pianist in this recording understand how the composer intended this music to be played or does he not pay attention to important musical events because they simply do not exist for him? Well, the recording is from an Ampico piano roll recorded on April 4, 1928 and the pianist is Sergei Rachmaninov. Rachmaninov was well known to be particular about the recordings he allowed to be released so there is no reason to believe he was unhappy about his performance on this occasion. It is unclear to me if all player pianos with the mechanism for playing an Ampico roll are regulated in the same way (which might effect tempo). There is a recording on YouTube of this performance which is significantly faster than the one I used (played at approximately 120 and lasting 4 minutes 32 seconds). I found another recording from the same piano roll that was slower (about 110, lasting just over 5 minutes) and chose the slower one.

I was not trying to 'trick' you or make you look foolish. Your initial reaction was that the pianist was quite musical (that was encouraging). I was truly interested in your claim that you have codified musical interpretation into a series of 'rules' and I wanted you to point out all of the things that the pianist did which conformed to your hierarchy of rules, but apparently, you are unable to do that, preferring that a LH passage that starts out pianissimo be practiced forte with 'unmusical' accents on weak beats.

Offline vladimirdounin

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Vladimir,

I wish you the best of luck in advertising your revolutionary new teaching method to the world. As usual, you have simply managed to alienate everyone who is interested enough in your methods to try to give you a platform to actually discuss them. You did the same thing on Piano World.

You claim many times that you have already documented at least 25 of the 50 rules known to you. However, more than 250 of your posts are still archived and available for anyone to see, many of which were from the 2005-2007 era. There is nothing like 25 rules listed in your posts. Similarly, the rules don't exist in the 34 chapters of one book and 5 chapters of another book on the Russian literature site which you pointed me to (which can be translated reasonably well with Google translate). There are a lot of great stories there, but very little that is actually concrete about music interpretation.

I happen to agree that as a group, Russian pianists are wonderful. There are many examples. For example, Grigory Sokolov is one of my personal favorites. You have many wonderful stories from your days in Russia as a music student. However, the things you write on piano forums are subject to the same hyperbole that you criticize in the Russian acrobat at the funeral (look at your claim that students cannot be heard practicing at any time in a university outside of Russia).

You claim that the pianist in the recording I posted "does not pay attention to many important notes and events in music. He simply never noticed them and they do not exist for him." Also, you claim that he is taking an "insanely fast tempo." I will discuss this below and reveal the name of the pianist.

The English translation of the title of Rachmaninov's Op 3 No 1 is "Elegy." It is also interesting to note that the whole of Opus 3 was titled 'Morceaux de fantaisie.' You would know better than I the possible connotations of the word элегия in Russian. An elegy can certainly be funeral music. However, elegy can also refer to 'sadness, melancholy, or lamentation' without actually referring to a funeral. You are certainly free to use an image of a funeral when performing the piece yourself.

With regard to tempo, Rachmaninov wrote 'Moderato'; he didn't indicate Largo, or Lento, or even Adagio. Italian tempo indications do not necessarily match perfectly with metronome marks, but the Wikipedia Tempo page seems to suggest that Moderato is approximately 108-120, about the range of a 19th century Allegretto (which is much faster than what Mozart and Beethoven meant when they wrote Allegretto; Charles Rosen points out that in the classical era, Allegretto was about 76.)

Does the pianist in this recording understand how the composer intended this music to be played or does he not pay attention to important musical events because they simply do not exist for him? Well, the recording is from an Ampico piano roll recorded on April 4, 1928 and the pianist is Sergei Rachmaninov. Rachmaninov was well known to be particular about the recordings he allowed to be released so there is no reason to believe he was unhappy about his performance on this occasion. It is unclear to me if all player pianos with the mechanism for playing an Ampico roll are regulated in the same way (which might effect tempo). There is a recording on YouTube of this performance which is significantly faster than the one I used (played at approximately 120 and lasting 4 minutes 32 seconds). I found another recording from the same piano roll that was slower (about 110, lasting just over 5 minutes) and chose the slower one.

I was not trying to 'trick' you or make you look foolish. Your initial reaction was that the pianist was quite musical (that was encouraging). I was truly interested in your claim that you have codified musical interpretation into a series of 'rules' and I wanted you to point out all of the things that the pianist did which conformed to your hierarchy of rules, but apparently, you are unable to do that, preferring that a LH passage that starts out pianissimo be practiced forte with 'unmusical' accents on weak beats.

No 1.

I am glad to see that the people here are still inventive. I have already publicly criticized my own performance of "Fur Elise" when my opponent,  "Marik", gave me to listen to my own performance after being processed by a compressor.

Now it looks so ridiculous that I am not satisfied with the performance of Rachmaninoff, as he plays his own work.

However, if you really read my stories in my "Laws of beauty in Music unknown to music schools", you remember that I played for the old man, who was a friend of Rachmaninoff and remembered his music in Russia.  And this man told me that after leaving Russia, Rachmaninoff completely changed his way to play piano. He could not recognize Rachmaninoff on his records from abroad anymore.

Unfortunately,  Rachmaninoff had  "a very good reason" for a complete change in the manner of his playing on the piano. I quote an article on Rachmaninoff:

"in the early years of his life in America, Rachmaninoff was almost in complete critical isolation: he was praised mostly by non-music, newspaper journalists, while the critical establishment almost completely ignored him, and the composer’s environment was not very happy to accept him".

I quote Rachmaninoff himself:

"Having lost my homeland, I lost myself. An exile who has lost his musical roots, traditions and native soil has no desire to create, no other consolations remain, except for the inviolable silence of uneasy memories. ”


Rachmaninoff was forced to earn a living for himself and his family only with such recordings and performances that would sell well. Therefore, he had to play in accordance with the "specific taste" of a new public for him.

Spanish pianist and composer Granados completely failed his tour in America financially and had no money for the way back to Spain.  He was saved only by someone's advice to play one short piece, sitting with his back to the piano. This circus trick immediately attracted the public and brought money.

Rachmaninoff, in the same way, was forced to turn his performances and recordings into a CIRCUS SHOW, "acrobatics at the piano",  which, of course,  not only I noticed while listening to his recording.

Many great musicians have said and said that Rachmaninoff  played on his foreign records as if he HATED his own music.

I do not mention  several wrong notes MOSTLY IN LEFT HAND.  I answer your question: why I did my "correctional recording" for LH in this way? It is done with stressing exactly on wrong notes that should be fixed. I did it  with metronome to correct not only rhythm but sometimes obviously wrong count.

And finally, to this line of our conversation, the words of Gould recall: “Not every composer and not always understands his own music.”

     No 2.

You say you did not notice my 25 rules, arranged in order in my book.  Yes, they are not listed one by one in row. But I devoted several times a WHOLE CHAPTER to EACH of the most important rules already and did not finish my book yet. I wrote only 34 chapters out of 50 planned.

Didn't I send you my 10 rules in a pack ALREADY a few weeks ago? Did you understand any of them in this form? I can send you another 20 with the same result. If I did not explain you with musical examples what is a Conflict-Resolution pair, what are Double Identical notes, what are Diving notes - you will have no idea: what I am talking about . And no one can have this idea without familiar to everyone musical examples on each of these rules.

However, no one will understand and even assume effectiveness of these rules without watching their practical application to particular student working on particular piece of music.
 
No 3.

Our problem is our opposite goals:

I want to show everyone a very good method of teaching music at a distance in action. I want everyone to see its practical application and immediate results. I say you - look: this method immediately and completely changes and improves ANY performance of ANY musician.

You and many others here do not want to give me the opportunity to show my method in action. Instead, they spend hundreds of words to prove that this method is no good and I am also a very bad person without any test.


What are you afraid of? I do not persuade anyone to lose their virginity, sell drugs or rob banks.  I suggest to make a recording of ANY music and bring here. For example, "Mary had a little lamb", or the anthem of your country played by the ONE FINGER, as I showed it recently as an example in "Revolutionary New Interpretation". I played for you "Happy Birthday" with one finger for clarity - answer me with the same way to play.

I DON'T NEED your GOOD performance. In the case of a perfect performance, I simply cannot correct mistakes due to the fact that they simply do not exist in this performance. I NEED a BAD performance to demonstrate my method.

Let's agree on a deal:

You bring here your recording of the hymn of your country played with one finger. Play AS BAD AS YOU CAN (if you want to).  Then I  will  give you instructions: how to fix "your performance" and you HAVE to follow them  FIRST, and ask me "why?" (as you did with Elegy) only AFTER our test is completed.

If you say here  that you understand my instructions, but you cannot fulfill them for purely physical reasons, I publicly apologize for everything written here and solemnly announce that I do not understand anything in music and in teaching.


Take a deal?

I invite EVERYONE to this deal.


Offline dogperson

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Vmishka
Thanks so much for your detailed, analytical reply to Mr Dounin.  It is much appreciated.

Mr Dounin
Your reply was not  analytical in reply:  you do not discuss the tempo markings on the score but reply with an unsupported anecdote that Rach changed the way he played and no longer knew how to play his own music.  You have been insulting here, have refused to provide details of your methods, have not provided a detailed analysis, either in writing or by playing, of what YOU consider the correct interpretation of Elegie. Why are you not willing to post your own recording is puzzling. It is also puzzling why you do not post the ‘before’ and ‘after’ of your own students.

You should consider moving on to another forum with your advertising campaign.