Question on "making progress."

[maxim3]

Hello again all, I am coming along fine, I think, in my self-taught advanced-beginner way. Doing lots of elementary repertoire, grade 1 to 3 I think, scales and arpeggios, and sight-reading a little every day (with VERY easy stuff)

Here's the question: I am not in some kind of unrealistic hurry. But I wonder, how well should a learner be able to play a piece before leaving it behind? Surely it's unnecessary to absolutely perfect and memorize every single piece of pedagogically-oriented repertoire.

If you are teaching someone, can you give an idea of when you judge that a student has derived sufficient benefit from a piece that he can move on to a new one?

(I am guessing that a student should always be trying to perfect A FEW chosen pieces. Currently I am doing this with selected things from easiest Bach, which I can get through, but certainly not sight-read.)

[themeandvariation]

Once you have a steady pulse (played comfortably) add dynamics.. Gradually increase pulse until you are near the tempo indication (if it is suggested at the beginning of the piece).  Add pedal if indicated, (this is assuming you know the correct way to use the pedal).
Then, go on to your next piece, but keep your last few pieces, (or more!) as a warm up before  practicing on the piece you are currently working on.
Good luck.

[maxim3]

Thanks ... I assume you would permit a few little mistakes, as long as they are not permitted to interrupt the flow of the music. Let's negotiate... how about a maximum of one mistake every three bars?

I realize that may sound silly to you but I have had very little experience of piano lessons in my life. I had a Russian moscow-conservatory teacher once but his idea of teaching an adult beginner was to start immediately with things like Rachmaninoff's famous Prelude, Chopin's Harp etude, and one of Bach's French Suites.... I suppose on the assumption that since I was already an accomplished player of several other instruments, I wouldn't want to waste time on childrens' fundamentals ... funnily enough after a couple of months I was actually able to stagger through those pieces. Then I stopped piano for many years. Now I'm starting from baby steps and I don't mind at all playing baby repertoire, it makes me feel secure.

[themeandvariation]

"how about a maximum of one mistake every three bars?"

No, this is too much.  If you are making a mistake every 3 bars, then your  practice method
needs to be addressed, or that the piece in question is too difficult.  Maybe try slowing down your tempo, so you can be more thoughtful.. And practice the specific areas giving you trouble. If the hand is shifting position, you may need to strategically glance down at the keyboard, and then bring your eyes back to the music without losing pulse.  This movement of the eyes needs to be figured into your practice..

[maxim3]

ok ok ok *grumble*hardasspianoteacher*grumble*

No rest for the wicked

How about, a mistake or two per page? Teechur!

I should have mentioned, I'm trying to keep my eyes glued to the page and not look at my hands at all, but perhaps I needn't be quite so hard on myself for the time being.

[outin]

There are different kinds of mistakes so there is no one answer.
Random mistakes and memory failures: One keeps working on them if one wants to perform or keep playing the piece for pleasure, otherwise one might as well move on.
Inability to play a section because of technical inadequacy: Sometimes the piece is just too hard better drop it. Sometimes one can learn with it, but this should happen in the early stages of learning the piece, one should not keep practicing things wrong.
Reading mistakes: You must correct them as soon as you notice them.
Inability to play the piece in tempo without mistakes cropping up: You must analyze the reason, maybe not good fingering or lack of a certain technical skill? Or maybe again the piece is simply too hard...

Imo It is usually better to drop a piece if one does not have the tools and the methods to keep making it better and one keeps making similar mistakes.

[maxim3]

I have been thinking hard about the advice given here, and I must admit to myself that I HAVE been in an unrealistic hurry.

This has led me to keep banging my head against some pieces that are too hard for me right now, and also to keep trying to play too damned fast.

So I have gone back a few pages, so to speak, and set the goddamned metronome to play much slower than I even thought was "slow." Result: much less mistakes, more confidence.

Thanks to you all

[associatex]

Thanks ... I assume you would permit a few little mistakes, as long as they are not permitted to interrupt the flow of the music. Let's negotiate... how about a maximum of one mistake every three bars?

I realize that may sound silly to you but I have had very little experience of piano lessons in my life. I had a Russian moscow-conservatory teacher once but his idea of teaching an adult beginner was to start immediately with things like Rachmaninoff's famous Prelude, Chopin's Harp etude, and one of Bach's French Suites.... I suppose on the assumption that since I was already an accomplished player of several other instruments, I wouldn't want to waste time on childrens' fundamentals ... funnily enough after a couple of months I was actually able to stagger through those pieces. Then I stopped piano for many years. Now I'm starting from baby steps and I don't mind at all playing baby repertoire, it makes me feel secure.

I am amazed that your former teacher had you learning Rach and Chopin etudes! I cant play any of those complex pieces and I have been playing for almost 35 years (lessons from age 9-17, long hiatus, then started up with group piano lessons in fall 2018 now in my 40s). I did take a few music theory classes in high school (AP Music Theory level curriculum). I brought back all my repetoire I used to play (Chopin Waltzes, Bach Inventions, a few Chopin Nocturnes, Beethoven Sonatas) 2 years ago on my own. I never learned any Rachmaninoff, but I can sight read the easier Schubert Impromptus. Right now, my teacher has me working on a Bach Fugue in WTC 2 now. I am really struggling with it. I have been taking lessons since September 2018 and feel I am not making good progress. 

 What do you consider a baby piece and when does one determine if a piece is too hard for you?

[keypeg]

You might consider goals differently.  Instead of trying to bring pieces up to a given level, you might set particular goals, such as playing a section of music evenly; adding dynamics in a way you like; ensuring that your hands are relaxed and flowing well.  Divide your music into sections and set goals for those sections.

The experience you had with that teacher is not uncommon. Some teachers think that if a student has experience with another instrument, that translates to piano.  How, for example, would a trumpeter's breath turn into hand movements?  Likewise, a self-taught student may have all kinds of holes in their foundations, but many teachers will see a "grade 4 piece" and go on from there.  This is all wrong thinking.

Have you had a chance to look at Jaak Sikk's course?  The first teaching unit is free.  He goes into the underlying elements of music making and I found much of what I worked with so far to be useful.

[maxim3]

associatex:

I'm only a kind of advanced beginner, so I can't really give you any authoritative advice. As keypeg says above, some teachers believe in this sort of leapfrogging into harder pieces approach, and you'd have to find one such teacher to hear his arguments for it. I feel more comfortable with stuff that's easy enough that it's challenging, but still conquerable after some regular practice.

I'm working on Czerny op. 599, numbers 24 and 25 are about where I'm at. I can also play a few of the famous pieces from Bach's Notebook for Anna Magdalena -- for me they are the hardest things I tackle right now, and I can only play them slowly. Bach didn't leave tempo markings of course, but I am familiar enough with the style to know that I'm well below the bottom of the range of acceptable slowness. But six months ago I couldn't play any of them at all.

How to know when a piece is just a little too hard? I can't put it into words, I just go with my gut feeling. Probably the Notebook is really a bit beyond me at this stage but it's so exciting to play this famous music that I persist.

keypeg: more good suggestions, thanks. I'll check out Sikk

[sucom]

I would keep a student on a piece of music until they were confident with the notes, had a reasonably good technique and fluency to play those notes and were able to play with some understanding and musical expression.

Occasional slips are neither here or there for general learning but the same slip in exactly the same place, over and over again, would be a reason to continue the piece until the slip disappeared.