\"\"
Piano Forum logo

20+ songs with the same mistake before and without it after the lesson. (Read 3303 times)

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
Recently, a "young piano teacher" sent me recordings of 20+ songs along with the question: why do they sound boring, although all the notes and rhythm are perfectly correct?

In all these recordings, I found only ONE the same mistake that almost all pianists make today.  But this mistake, as usual, is made in each measure of each song.

Having received my answer this young teacher recorded the same songs without this error. Now they sound much better.

In order to make this error more noticeable, I put the corrected version FIRST here, and the initial version - the SECOND.

I invite everyone to notice this error and suggest a way to correct it.

I ask everyone who can, to indicate to me at least one record available for listening on the Internet, on which the pianist does not make this mistake.

Thank you in advance for web address and listening to MY recordings!

Bach. Prelude in B flat Minor WTC Vol. I BWV 867

https://yadi.sk/d/iY7EDSQiUMz1bA

Bach. Little Prelude in D Major BWV 936 PN.mp3» - Bach Little Prelude in D Major BWV 936 PN.mp3  https://yadi.sk/d/_DCYyRBzxHgi7Q

Bortnyansky. Crucified And Buried.mp3 -
https://yadi.sk/d/Hs852AM3hWorLA

Bach. Musette in D Major.mp3 PN
https://yadi.sk/d/QEfaIr6enGtWyg


Bach. Minuet in D Minor.mp3 PN» - Bach Minuet in D Minor.mp3 PN
https://yadi.sk/d/dDTcl5_dz2dgcw


Handel. Gavotte in G Major.mp3 PN» - Handel Gavotte in G Major.mp3 PN
https://yadi.sk/d/50Qh1zxGYt-PWA

Rameau. Menuet en rondeau.mp3 PN»
https://yadi.sk/d/QVmEAtesngDhEg


Diabelli. Sonatina in F Major op.168, no.1 PN.mp3 PN» - Diabelli Sonatina in F Major op.168, no.1 PN.mp3 PN
https://yadi.sk/d/HAPglAGwwOxBhg


Mozart.  Menuetto I in C Major.mp3 PN» -
 https://yadi.sk/d/PFc8huf0zWj2HA

Twinkle,Twinkle
 https://yadi.sk/d/ZFkUSWX8AFZC2g

Petzold. Minuet in G Major mp3 PN
https://yadi.sk/d/fZheygap1Kl-dw

Schubert.  Ecossaise D 299 No 8 .mp3PN» - Schubert Ecossaise D 299 No 8 .mp3PN
https://yadi.sk/d/OYD3Zfy_rAeyng


Heller.  Fluttering Leaves PN.mp3» - Heller Fluttering Leaves PN.mp3
https://yadi.sk/d/yGwbIS0zszNOEQ



Nakada. The Song of Twilight PN.mp3» - Nakada The Song of Twilight PN.mp3
https://yadi.sk/d/H-R7rGWvBtJ-_A



Norton.  Play It Again PN.mp3» - Norton Play It Again PN.mp3
https://yadi.sk/d/2Rjav1BAvkK8WA

«Peterson Jazz Exercise no 2 PN.mp3» -
 https://yadi.sk/d/OgrYUk6TkN1ACw


Weill Mack The Knife.mp3 -
https://yadi.sk/d/4llz5S7yhsdRdg




Jingle Bells PN.mp3» -
 https://yadi.sk/d/n9mr3IdeHhcmZw

Happy Birthday To Yoy PNC.mp3» -
 https://yadi.sk/d/viDllwBGzTWY0w

Old McDonald.mp3 -
 https://yadi.sk/d/5Y_CEIb2YPefOQ

Love Story PN.mp3 -
https://yadi.sk/d/WC9j5WS0rD9_vg

Long,Long Ago PN.mp3» -
https://yadi.sk/d/x1EzhaR7DiRWgg

My Way.mp3PN.mp3 -
 https://yadi.sk/d/nh3LI7fqIbjZ_Q

Varlamov.  Scarlet Sarafan PN.mp3 -
 https://yadi.sk/d/EGe-qLMu6lyeGQ

Moscow evenings PN.mp3 -
https://yadi.sk/d/1nsKqacal4SOcw

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3568
Re: 20+ songs with the same mistake before and after the lesson.
«Reply #1 on: April 13, 2019, 01:01:54 AM »
I assume that when you play the role of the young teacher who has learned the corrected way, and then you play the role of the young teacher who has not learned the corrected way, you are probably going after the idea you have often posted about people being taught to always emphasize beats 1 & 3.  That is what you would be illustrating in the two ways you play it, as this young teacher.

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
Re: 20+ songs with the same mistake before and after the lesson.
«Reply #2 on: April 13, 2019, 07:16:33 AM »
I assume that when you play the role of the young teacher who has learned the corrected way, and then you play the role of the young teacher who has not learned the corrected way, you are probably going after the idea you have often posted about people being taught to always emphasize beats 1 & 3.  That is what you would be illustrating in the two ways you play it, as this young teacher.

Which  way to play do you like more?  Which variant of the performance do you prefer? Before the lesson or after the lesson?

Thanks!

Offline dogperson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1429
Do you think most people here will just forget your commitment to record two specific pieces of music and be willing to play your new game?  Post your own recordings  of The two pieces

I’m sure you haven’t forgotten what they are

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3568
Vladimir, I cannot even get near your point because things are standing in the way.  A dialogue requires honesty, otherwise people think games are being played - it's a kind of deception.  I do not think there was a lesson, or that there is a young teacher.  I think that you played two versions of each piece in order to illustrate the ideas that you are trying to present.  Why not say so?  That is the first obstacle.

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6148
Just came to say.... LOL SONGS???!?!?!?!? Hilarious. Please continue.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.facebook.com/groups/348933611793249/

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3568
An analogy.

I move to some corner in the world where locally there is an odd practice in punctuation.  People put the period or question mark in the wrong place.  I then have the idea that everybody in the world does this, and decide to educate them.  I tell them that periods come at the end of the sentence.  I then create these two examples:

1. why am I happY   ?it is because the sun is shininG  .does it shine at nighT  ?no  !the end 

2.  Why am I happy?  It is because the sun is shining.  Does it shine at night? No!  The end.

I ask which of these two examples is easier to read.  Obviously the second one is easier to read, and the error of the first one is a no brainer.  But the people reading this will think "Why am I being asked this?  Is this person trying to teach me not to do a thing that I would never do?"  It's just a really weird interaction.  They're told almost everybody does the mistake in no. 1, but those reading have no experience of this "common mistake".

We have been told that almost everybody plays by emphasizing beat 1, and maybe beats 1 & 3.  The examples that I listened to, in the supposed "before lesson" ones, did that kind of emphasis and sounded clumsy as opposed to the "after lesson" ones which came first.  Clearly the clumsy doesn't sound as good as the non-clumsy.  But this is like my language use example.

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
Do you think most people here will just forget your commitment to record two specific pieces of music and be willing to play your new game?  Post your own recordings  of The two pieces

I’m sure you haven’t forgotten what they are

As you see I have recorded not two but 20+ songs. We are not children and everyone understands that all these pairs of recordings are done by me.

What is the problem to express your opinion about the better way to play and identify the mistake?

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
An analogy.

I move to some corner in the world where locally there is an odd practice in punctuation.  People put the period or question mark in the wrong place.  I then have the idea that everybody in the world does this, and decide to educate them.  I tell them that periods come at the end of the sentence.  I then create these two examples:

1. why am I happY   ?it is because the sun is shininG  .does it shine at nighT  ?no  !the end 

2.  Why am I happy?  It is because the sun is shining.  Does it shine at night? No!  The end.

I ask which of these two examples is easier to read.  Obviously the second one is easier to read, and the error of the first one is a no brainer.  But the people reading this will think "Why am I being asked this?  Is this person trying to teach me not to do a thing that I would never do?"  It's just a really weird interaction.  They're told almost everybody does the mistake in no. 1, but those reading have no experience of this "common mistake".

We have been told that almost everybody plays by emphasizing beat 1, and maybe beats 1 & 3.  The examples that I listened to, in the supposed "before lesson" ones, did that kind of emphasis and sounded clumsy as opposed to the "after lesson" ones which came first.  Clearly the clumsy doesn't sound as good as the non-clumsy.  But this is like my language use example.

You are absolutely right. You have described perfectly: what I am trying to do.  I believe that your way to oppose wrong spelling should eventually work.

Thank you for support!

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3568
The problem is, if I try to teach people not to do a thing that they don't do anyway, it's going to be puzzling.  In my example, nobody writes in that wrong way (except some who learn English after writing a right-to-left language with a different script).

Offline dogperson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1429
As you see I have recorded not two but 20+ songs. We are not children and everyone understands that all these pairs of recordings are done by me.

What is the problem to express your opinion about the better way to play and identify the mistake?


Not unusual, but your post of ‘songs’ and recordings is unresponsive.  The last time you were here, you agreed to post Your own recording of Rachmaninoff’s elegie, so that we could see how much more you know than Rachmaninov  when he played it.... and was it Alkan?   Sorry, a recording of twinkle twinkle little star is not the same. 

I’m sure you have not forgotten the commitment that you made.... and have ignored.

Think I’ll go watch that old classic movie ‘Thr Music Man’.

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338


Not unusual, but your post of ‘songs’ and recordings is unresponsive.  The last time you were here, you agreed to post Your own recording of Rachmaninoff’s elegie, so that we could see how much more you know than Rachmaninov  when he played it.... and was it Alkan?   Sorry, a recording of twinkle twinkle little star is not the same. 

I’m sure you have not forgotten the commitment that you made.... and have ignored.

Think I’ll go watch that old classic movie ‘Thr Music Man’.

What do you mean saying: "post of ‘songs’ and recordings is unresponsive"?
You can not listen to the songs?  I checked - all of the links work.

I not only agreed to post my "Elegy" - I am really interested to do so because I never played this piece before and I am sure that Rachmaninoff wrote it much better than played on  quoted here recording (maybe there are other, better recordings - I am not sure).
However, if I want to "argue" with Rachmaninoff I should not play badly, I should practice
and know his piece not worse than he knew, when he recorded "Elegy". It is not a song for sight reading. It takes some time. Be patient - you WILL listen to my version of the "Elegy".

I am not interested to waste my time for  Alkan by 2 reasons:
1. This particular variation is written in a very high register, so nobody will hear the differences in Intensity (all my posts since 2005 are around this ABSOLUTELY UNKNOWN to the majority of musicians area of music). Our ear can not hear the Intensity clearly if pitch is high but they hear perfectly in low register.

2. I do not like these Hanon like variations (Alkan). I prefer more serious music. Therefore one of my next recording will be Schubert's "Wanderer". This gentleman says that he is an expert in XIX century music. So he should be able to play "Wanderer".

I was very disappointed listening to Richter's recording of "Wanderer". So, if I oppose both of these great pianists (Rachmaninoff and Richter) I should not practice less than they did. And both of these two practiced like crazy (I wrote that was a witness of Richter's day and night practicing session).

So, forget about Alkan but Elegy and Wanderer (if I will be still alive, of course) will be here. 


Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
The problem is, if I try to teach people not to do a thing that they don't do anyway, it's going to be puzzling.  In my example, nobody writes in that wrong way (except some who learn English after writing a right-to-left language with a different script).

Modern pianists are massively rejected by the audience exactly for this artificial disgusting accents that I pointed in all my 25 recordings. No one (without "special, professional training" = brainwashing) can tolerate this "musical way to speak".

Everyone, who tried to speak naturally, without this "upside down" accent or even listened to this way to "speak" can not tolerate this barbarian, soldiery  stressing in each bar anymore.

I wrote already that people ordered from me thousands of tapes with their favourite songs  just because they hated "standard stresses".

It is a bit more complicated than simply stressing on ONE and THREE. Sometimes we have to stress these beats as well.  I will post detailed analyze of this problem for each piece soon with the explanation of the rules of stressing on particular examples of music.

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3568
Vladimir, here is what would work for me, and I think for most people on this side of the world.  (I do suspect a cultural clash of sorts with communication style.)   Namely, if you presented the playing concepts, as a teacher does, but minus the grandiose sweeping statements.  When you write what "modern pianists" "do", how, in your opinion, they lose the interest of audiences, how people buy your recordings ..... this is totally irrelevant to what you are trying to present, and makes people not want to consider what you are presenting.  I imagine that some pianists play as you have stated, some people like or dislike this or that music .... and this is due to a host of factors .... our experiences may give us a different picture of the world than the one you present ... but it is also immaterial.   Either what you have to present has learning value, or it doesn't.  When the statements of "what is happening in the world" clash, and there is no overall picture of the world anyway, you have buried your own message.

Why are you doing this anyway - I mean, why do you keep writing about what modern pianists do, what audiences like etc. - what is the purpose of that?  If it is to get people to consider your ideas, it dose the opposite.  This is a thing to consider.

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3568
In regard to the "one" and "three", and the deliberate clumsy renderings of some of what I have heard:

I don't hear that kind of playing from good pianists.  In my role as a student, my teacher does have me listen to performances of pieces, not for the sake of imitation, but to start to guide the ear, to listen for choices and the possible reason for them - again, I don't hear that kind of thing from the good pianists I've been directed toward.  That is one aspect.

As learners a student may not be capable of subtle playing.  You must also take into account the long term teaching strategies that the individual teacher may have.  One strategy may be to have students play music very literally, according to "rules" that are not as strict in real music as they get presented.  A decent teacher may plan to let go of the rules later and bring in possibilities, later.  Whether that works, is another question.
 There may be reason to do so in some instances.  You can also have people teaching who are not taught thoroughly, and who understand the "rules" literally themselves and so can't go further.  Finally .... since you are the center of RCM-land, you'll have teaching toward exams and exam requirements.  Theory can be taught literally, including "strong weak middle weak" - and then finds its way into a student's playing forever after.

I can picture someone playing as per the "weaker" examples (always no. 2) at a stage in their development, and later not playing that way, if they have a decent teacher who is applying a particular strategy.  There is also in this --- as I have argued before --- the physical ability / training to produce notes of a given quality.  If you were properly taught from a young age, you will have this, and take it for granted.  Personally I have had to work hard with a teacher to acquire these abilities, physically, and would not have been able to do so on my own.  In good teaching one most look at every aspect of a student, where that student is at.  The actual things you are presenting: they are not new ideas.  These things do get taught by good teachers.  So I'm sure they are also familiar to others here.

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
In regard to the "one" and "three", and the deliberate clumsy renderings of some of what I have heard:

I don't hear that kind of playing from good pianists. 


     


Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3568
Vladimir, would you be able to grace us with a recording of you playing this same piece as you think it ought to be played?  That would be the best comparison for understanding of your ideas, I would think.  Thank you in advance. :)

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
When the statements of "what is happening in the world" clash, and there is no overall picture of the world anyway.

There are such things as statistics, reports of concert halls and agencies, the Internet plus some own observations. All of them say that the interest towards classical pianists drops dramatically.

Musical acrobatics at piano is not enough to keep audience for whole evening.

If I know something about the way to fix the situation why not to say about it publicly. It in the interest of everyone. If I played my concert badly nobody will by tickets to YOUR concert  because of me. We all are in one boat.

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
Vladimir, would you be able to grace us with a recording of you playing this same piece as you think it ought to be played?  That would be the best comparison for understanding of your ideas, I would think.  Thank you in advance. :)

Now I understand the real problem in our communication.  I was sure that you listened to my recordings and then started to criticize me because I did not satisfy you with my way to play.

 But in fact,  you just skipped  listening and started to criticize me without having an idea: what and how do I play?

This "same piece" is number ONE on my list above.

Bach.  BbMinor I volume.mp3 PN» - BachBbMinor I volume.mp3 PN

https://yadi.sk/d/EFMWBia-Ey99sA
 

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3568
But in fact,  you just skipped  listening and started to criticize me without having an idea: what and how do I play?
You are making a few assumptions.  My "criticism" was advice about some parts of your presentation that was likely to turn people off, namely the story of a young teacher when I don't think it was so, and the blanket statement about pianists.  You could have seen that as help.  If I heard that the "other player" was you, having your style of playing, then obviously I listened (your second assumption).  I didn't listen to number one.  I went for music that was simpler and more humble. 

You could have taken my request with more grace.  I'm about  the only person who has expressed interest of any kind.  Thank you for providing the link.  I will wait for others to respond and am probably out of this discussion.

Offline vladimirdounin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
You are making a few assumptions.  My "criticism" was advice about some parts of your presentation that was likely to turn people off, namely the story of a young teacher when I don't think it was so, and the blanket statement about pianists.  You could have seen that as help.  If I heard that the "other player" was you, having your style of playing, then obviously I listened (your second assumption).  I didn't listen to number one.  I went for music that was simpler and more humble. 

You could have taken my request with more grace.  I'm about  the only person who has expressed interest of any kind.  Thank you for providing the link.  I will wait for others to respond and am probably out of this discussion.

I am sorry. Please, accept my apology.

I was just surprised that  you did not listen EVEN ONE (as I understood) piece out of my 25. I was wrong because I judged the others by my self. I always listen to the no 1 - first and expected you to do the same.

I appreciated your interest and attitude.  Please, do not leave.


Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3568
I am sorry. Please, accept my apology.

I was just surprised that  you did not listen EVEN ONE (as I understood) piece out of my 25. I was wrong because I judged the others by my self. I always listen to the no 1 - first and expected you to do the same.

I appreciated your interest and attitude.  Please, do not leave.
Accepted.