"Rule, Britannia!" - right and wrong way to perform

[vladimirdounin]

Today, many music schools and teachers stamp musicians with the same defect.  They teach all musicians (including singers) that notes on the counts  "one" and  "three" must be louder than others.

If you are going to perform all your life only soldiers' songs and marches, then you do not need anything else.  This rule will work perfectly,  and all the soldiers  will loudly stamp their left foot  exactly on the counts  “one” and “three”  together with you  to the joy of their commanders.

However, this rule is absolutely not suitable for music, which is written for everything that we have above the belt line: for the mind, for the heart, for the soul.
People who haven’t been  brainwashed at music schools,  do not like the performance of good music “like a soldier’s” .  There are a great majority of such people on our planet and they come or don't come  to our  concerts and buy  or don't buy  our music recordings.  Normal people do not like to listen to "musical robots" and simply refuse to listen to them.

I also don’t like these constant stresses on the "one" and "three" in every musical word, because I have worked all my life with wonderful musicians and I know much better rules that I share with FREE for everyone.

Because we are in the same boat.  If I played bad music, people will not come to YOUR concert. If you played badly - they will not come to mine.

To keep other musicians away from this kind of performance "with soldiers' stresses," I now record the same musical works  twice: the first time I play by the rules I learned from the masters, and the second time exactly as bad teachers and schools  teach: like a stupid robot that always plays all the notes on "one" and "three" louder.

My listeners thus have the opportunity to compare and decide: which music sounds better, and how would they like to play this music?

If you liked the first version more and you would like to play the same, and not vice versa,  I invite you to watch my videos and read my articles and books on the topic: which notes in music should be louder and which ones should be quieter? And why so, and not otherwise?

 I answer letters and give FREE advice to everyone on my mail

vladimir_and_music@yahoo.com       as well.


Thank you for listening to my recordings!

«Rule, Britannia!.mp3» - https://yadi.sk/d/q8iYUg58e1xUTw

[keypeg]

Today, many music schools and bad teachers stamp musicians with the same defect.  They teach all musicians (including singers) that notes on the counts  "one" and  "three" must be louder than others.

I'd like to address this premise since it has been mentioned so often.  This forum would naturally have a lot of people who have had music lessons, or are having music lessons.  We are scattered all over the world.  I would like to know from the folks here, who has been taught this?  I.e. how many have been taught that when you play music in quadruple meter, you must stress counts "one" and "three"?  Before even correcting this problem, I think we should find out whether it exists, and to what extent.

Fellow PSers?

[keypeg]

On the same first topic:

As a student I ran into this particular topic twice.  The first time I was an adult student of violin, taking music lessons for the first time.  At some point I asked to do theory (RCM) and covered all three levels of rudiments in  about 5 months, starting with note names, and wrote the intermediate and advanced exams. I ran into these concepts in the theory book: level 1 had simple meter, level 2 had compound meter, and level 3 had the meter that goes by various names which is 7/8 etc.  I did some practice exams with my teacher and at some points he pulled out his instrument to illustrate that you listen to the music and its nature first: that these rules are just general guidelines.  So at that point nothing was drummed into me about stressing beats 1 and 3.

The second time was when I took up piano again, and having been self-taught decades before, wanted to correct technique and anything else I had gotten wrong.  This time my teacher was (and is) an American.  We have gone much more into these things.  It has always been stressed to me (again) that one does not blindly apply such rules in one's playing.  So again, not only was this stressing of beats 1 and 3 not drummed into me, but I was cautioned against it both times, by both teachers.

Therefore, when you keep writing that students are taught to stress beats 1 and 3, and that is what modern musicians do, it does not jive with my personal experience.  But I also don't know how common it is.  Rather than guess what the experience is, it makes sense to actually ask. It is not good (imho) to start off on assumptions.

You are in the very heartland of the RCM, and as someone outside of the region, I can tell you that the impression one gets in general is that Toronto itself seems to think it's the world.  Is it possible that your impressions of what is going on is skewed due to where you are?

[vladimirdounin]

I'd like to address this premise since it has been mentioned so often.  This forum would naturally have a lot of people who have had music lessons, or are having music lessons.  We are scattered all over the world.  I would like to know from the folks here, who has been taught this?  I.e. how many have been taught that when you play music in quadruple meter, you must stress counts "one" and "three"?  Before even correcting this problem, I think we should find out whether it exists, and to what extent.

Fellow PSers?

I totally agree with you and your position.
 
You asked a question to which I would be very interested to hear the answer too

[vladimirdounin]

On the same first topic:


Therefore, when you keep writing that students are taught to stress beats 1 and 3, and that is what modern musicians do, it does not jive with my personal experience.  But I also don't know how common it is.  Rather than guess what the experience is, it makes sense to actually ask. It is not good (imho) to start off on assumptions.

You are in the very heartland of the RCM, and as someone outside of the region, I can tell you that the impression one gets in general is that Toronto itself seems to think it's the world.  Is it possible that your impressions of what is going on is skewed due to where you are?

I live in Toronto only geographically and not for too long. My impressions and judgments have little to do with the place where I am physically located.  There are records, radio, TV, Internet, not to mention my own travels and work with people from different countries.

You and I absolutely do not need to argue on this topic verbally.  Instead, let's listen together as other pianists of the world play the same pieces that I recorded and brought for discussion.  Today it is very easy to do.  Just bring here the links of pianists who do not play  count "one " and "three" louder than all the other notes in each measure. Can you do it?  Let us start, for example, with this "Rule, Britannia!"

[keypeg]

You and I absolutely do not need to argue on this topic verbally.

It is not an argument but clarity.  If we are beginning with the premise that most of us are taught to stress beats 1 and 3, and this is to get us to not think that way, then the remainder makes less sense if the situation does not exist.

In regard to the two recordings, the one that was played more nuanced and without that deliberate heavy beat, which sounded studentish as a student who hasn't gotten the nuances or skills, might play it, sounded better.  But that was also a purpose of the recording.  For the rest I'll work with my teacher, whose ears are finer than mine.  I may pose the Rule Britannia question.  I looked it up on the Net and the first few hits had singers with such wide quavering vibratos that I had to shut it off. 

[vladimirdounin]

Thanks.  We are moving in a right direction in our conversation.

[themeandvariation]

Although I think there is something prevalent  to what you are saying, I believe it is not something that should be blanketed across the repertoire, without a serious understanding
of the compositional underpinnings.  In other words, is the 1st beat the beginning of an idea, or the completion of one.. A Schweitzer  (from a long time back) goes into this w regard to Bach...  part of which is looking at the bowings of his string writing, giving a clue to the stress points.  Also in this regard, it is easy to observe w the fugues from WTC that only a few of the themes beginning on the 1st beat. 
It is also practically a cliche to observe that a heavy downbeat is less energetic than a weak one.. in the context of the piece in motion.
Finally, my criticism of your thinking is that it is guilty of the same 'reductio absurdum ' that you are accusing the 'downbeaters' of having.    It ain't as simple as you portray.
Cheers.

PS the other thing is that this appears to only address 4/4 time.  There Are other meters..(another apparent reduction).

[vladimirdounin]

Although I think there is something prevalent  to what you are saying, I believe it is not something that should be blanketed across the repertoire, without a serious understanding
of the compositional underpinnings.  In other words, is the 1st beat the beginning of an idea, or the completion of one.. A Schweitzer  (from a long time back) goes into this w regard to Bach...  part of which is looking at the bowings of his string writing, giving a clue to the stress points.  Also in this regard, it is easy to observe w the fugues from WTC that only a few of the themes beginning on the 1st beat. 
It is also practically a cliche to observe that a heavy downbeat is less energetic than a weak one.. in the context of the piece in motion.
Finally, my criticism of your thinking is that it is guilty of the same 'reductio absurdum ' that you are accusing the 'downbeaters' of having.    It ain't as simple as you portray.
Cheers.

PS the other thing is that this appears to only address 4/4 time.  There Are other meters..(another apparent reduction).

I am very glad to see a really professional, serious approach to this extremely important and interesting problem in performing.

However, how many out of 100 musicians know and were taught in the school that  they have to play differently, if "the 1st beat the beginning of an idea, or the completion of one.. " (that is 100% true)? How many pianists on You Tube follow this rule? etc.

I never said it is so simple. I want at least to start a conversation on this topic from a simplest case. Do you know anyone else but Schweitzer who wrote about Intensity problems?

[keypeg]

However, how many out of 100 musicians know and were taught in the school that  they have to play differently, if "the 1st beat the beginning of an idea, or the completion of one.. " (that is 100% true)? How many pianists on You Tube follow this rule? etc.

We 're back to this again.   It would be best to leave out the idea of what people "are taught" because we don't know.  I cannot imagine that anyone with any degree of decent teaching would be taught the simplistic ideas of "stress beat 1 & 3" (in quadruple time) - which is why I asked the question in the first place.

I have about the least fancy background out there: self-taught as a child (not by choice) - falling into lessons basically as a "middle aged housewife" the first time round; asking probing questions after that experience.  I know I was lucky in what I got by way of teaching, but cannot imagine it would be that rare.

[lostinidlewonder]

Today, many music schools and teachers stamp musicians with the same defect. They teach all musicians (including singers) that notes on the counts "one" and "three" must be louder than others.

Another ridiculous post. Firstly assuming he knows what all teachers and students do/learn but of course delusions of grandeur allows for this and then totally ignoring basic concepts of articulation in music like accents (eg >) which actually tell us which particular notes are to stand out above the rest something taught to beginners of music. The lack of musical understanding in the op is comical and full of misinformation akin to one who lives in a world of imagination.

[vladimirdounin]

We 're back to this again.   It would be best to leave out the idea of what people "are taught" because we don't know.  I cannot imagine that anyone with any degree of decent teaching would be taught the simplistic ideas of "stress beat 1 & 3" (in quadruple time) - which is why I asked the question in the first place.

I have about the least fancy background out there: self-taught as a child (not by choice) - falling into lessons basically as a "middle aged housewife" the first time round; asking probing questions after that experience.  I know I was lucky in what I got by way of teaching, but cannot imagine it would be that rare.

You do not take in consideration one important point:

In English you are as a fish in water, and I am as a fish out of water. I learned seriously (in school and conservatory) only German. Therefore, other Russians are happy with my English, but native speakers immediately detect my problems.

On the other hand, I do research on Music Intensity for many decades. And my sensitivity to problems in Intensity (due to permanent training) is much higher than ordinary musicians have, who have no idea and even interest in this area of music.  A lot of musicians do not hear the difference between opposite version of performance at all and say that both are absolutely the same. Consider yourself lucky that you hear it, as it is seen from your comments.   But you still do not have my experience and such a trained for Intensity ears as mine.

In Russia I ran an extremely successful Artistic Agency: the best artists took part in my concerts and 3 events I did on no. 1 stage of the country - Kremlin Palace of Congresses, including 1st Inauguration of President Yeltsyn for $ 226 000.

The secret was very simple - my customers did not pay me one cent before the concert and had right not to pay at all, if one single person said that concert was bad. So they had absolutely no risk and paid generously immediately after the concert without any problem because  I knew perfectly: who will be loved by audience and who will not.

Russia had no illiterate or technically clumsy pianists and other musicians and singers, so only the difference between the best and worse was the Intensity. And if I did not hear it, my agency turned into bankruptcy immediately.

And if you do not know: (quote) "It would be best to leave out the idea of what people "are taught" because we don't know." does not mean that someone more trained in this area does not know - we have radio, records, TV, Internet and can know everything, if we wish.  The only problem is: do we wish or not?

[vladimirdounin]

Another ridiculous post. Firstly assuming he knows what all teachers and students do/learn but of course delusions of grandeur allows for this and then totally ignoring basic concepts of articulation in music like accents (eg >) which actually tell us which particular notes are to stand out above the rest something taught to beginners of music. The lack of musical understanding in the op is comical and full of misinformation akin to one who lives in a world of imagination.

1.  Do not distort as a card sharper: I did not write "all schools", "all teachers". I wrote "many." If I can easily point you to a couple of hundred examples on the Youtube - this is already "many." Isn't it?

Can you provide  at least one link to an example when the pianist doesn’t play ALL the notes on the count "one" in each measure louder than the rest?

2. Quote: "totally ignoring basic concepts of articulation in music like accents (eg >) which actually tell us which particular notes are to stand out above the rest something taught to beginners of music".

This is a pure misinformation.

Could you bring here at least one example of sheet music where all the notes, or many notes in each bar are marked in such a way that you know their Intensity with confidence?

3. Why don't you want to answer with your own recording of this simple and well known to everyone song instead of verbal eruption? Are you musician?  Can you play at least something easy like this on piano? - Then speak by your music instead of cheap gossips. It would be much more constructive and interesting.
 

[keypeg]

You do not take in consideration one important point:

In English you are as a fish in water, and I am as a fish out of water. I learned seriously (in school and conservatory) only German. Therefore, other Russians are happy with my English, but native speakers immediately detect my problems.

On the other hand, I do research on Music Intensity for many decades.

You are responding to my statement that it's better to leave out the idea of what people are taught.  It is totally immaterial to what you want to present.  None of us can know what is taught everywhere, and such statements are guesswork, unless you actually visit all studios and all schools throughout the world.  That is an impossibility.  The fact of what you studied and researched has absolutely nothing to do with what people are taught.  It does have to do with what you are trying to bring across.  Wouldn't that matter more?

Btw, English is the second language I learned.  Russian was my fifth.

[lostinidlewonder]

1.  Do not distort as a card sharper: I did not write "all schools", "all teachers". I wrote "many." If I can easily point you to a couple of hundred examples on the Youtube - this is already "many." Isn't it?

You said many teach ALL their students, so many must mean the majority of schools in this world and they ALL do what you falsely say they do.

Today, many music schools and teachers stamp musicians with the same defect.  They teach all musicians (including singers) that notes on the counts  "one" and  "three" must be louder than others.

Read your own words "... the notes on count one and three MUST be louder than others." This is just such a weak statement do you even listen to other people playing to hear such things? Are you so caught up in a fantasy world that this is all you hear from everyone except those with your special knowledge that is very secretive and only very few know? lol!

Can you provide  at least one link to an example when the pianist doesn’t play ALL the notes on the count "one" in each measure louder than the rest?

So now you change the game, instead of as I quoted from you above ".... that notes on the counts  "one" and  "three" must be louder than others" you now demand an example where there is not one single instance where there is an accent on the first beat, you cannot even get your own story straight and you have now also forgotten that you presumed that all third beats also were louder than all else.

Any piece of music which has an accent (>) will show you that it does not always occur at the 1st and 3rd beat the fact that you are oblivious to this reality highlights your severe lack of repertoire knowledge and assuming a personality of musical authority is quite laughable. Otherwise you are so caught up in  your fantasy world that you are hearing delusional sounds of accents on 1st and 3rd everywhere, thats a unique auditory hallucination you have there which most probably extends from some peculiar grandiose musical delusions.

Here is one link where they often accent on the 4th beat:

What about some Chopin where the melodic line sings above everything else and plays all over the beats? Just on beats one and three? Dont be stupid!

2. Quote: "totally ignoring basic concepts of articulation in music like accents (eg >) which actually tell us which particular notes are to stand out above the rest something taught to beginners of music".

This is a pure misinformation.

Could you bring here at least one example of sheet music where all the notes, or many notes in each bar are marked in such a way that you know their Intensity with confidence?

Pure misinformation? You are hilarious and very foolish and I am sure that many who read your response to me here will realize how ignorant you really are! Oh my goodness very funny indeed! See the link posted of the Bartok above which makes YOUR misinformation here obvious surely you can source the sheet music for this, maybe the music library in russia at the univeristy you you studied has it or perhaps you have an autographed copy from Richter??

3. Why don't you want to answer with your own recording of this simple and well known to everyone song instead of verbal eruption? Are you musician?  Can you play at least something easy like this on piano? - Then speak by your music instead of cheap gossips. It would be much more constructive and interesting.

You continually ask for recordings from people on here when you are unable to talk your way out of a situtation, you do realize this does not score you any brownie points? You already have had your challenge of "post a recording" accepted by others on pianostreet (eg: ronde_des_sylphes  https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=65613.msg692535#msg692535) where you gave excuses to stall and never produced evidence that you could produce the same. You obviously have not learned your lesson to demand recordings from people when they call you up on your rubbish.

You realy believe that that your idea that all music is accented on the 1st and 3rd beat is a mainstream music ideology and worthy of a serious discussion, I for one as a piano teacher for over 25 years say you are full of rubbish on this point thus your entire discussion falls apart and is not worthy of serious discussion especially as your position is that you are a musical authority who has rubbed shoulders with the likes of Sviatoslav Richter lol!! I'm not sorry to burst your imaginary world bubble.

[vladimirdounin]

You are responding to my statement that it's better to leave out the idea of what people are taught.  It is totally immaterial to what you want to present.  None of us can know what is taught everywhere, and such statements are guesswork, unless you actually visit all studios and all schools throughout the world.  That is an impossibility.  The fact of what you studied and researched has absolutely nothing to do with what people are taught.  It does have to do with what you are trying to bring across.  Wouldn't that matter more?

Btw, English is the second language I learned.  Russian was my fifth.

1. If I understood you correctly, you say that I can not know "what people are taught" in their schools and private classes, when I am listening to the result of their education - their music? So, if a chef at restaurant gives me disgusting food and tailor made for me a costume that is too small for me, I have no right to comment on their training?

2. If you know Russian, you can read my more detailed articles on proza.ru

https://www.proza.ru/2016/07/23/645

https://www.proza.ru/avtor/vladimirdounin

 

[lostinidlewonder]

1. If I understood you correctly, you say that I can not know "what people are taught" in their schools and private classes, when I am listening to the result of their education - their music? ...... I have no right to comment on their training?

Why don't you post examples from youtube of all these numerous examples where you see people accenting the 1st and 3rd beat making their notes here louder than all others throughout their entire playing? If you really want to support yourself post the teachers who spread this wrong teaching you suggest, give us a list of the schools you suggest teach this way and list some professional pianists who do this since as you say it "Today, many music schools and teachers stamp musicians with the same defect." Let's see your sample space because I am sure we will see what it is all worth then.

[vladimirdounin]

You said many teach ALL their students, so many must mean the majority of schools in this world and they ALL do what you falsely say they do.
Read your own words "... the notes on count one and three MUST be louder than others." This is just such a weak statement do you even listen to other people playing to hear such things? Are you so caught up in a fantasy world that this is all you hear from everyone except those with your special knowledge that is very secretive and only very few know? lol!
So now you change the game, instead of as I quoted from you above ".... that notes on the counts  "one" and  "three" must be louder than others" you now demand an example where there is not one single instance where there is an accent on the first beat, you cannot even get your own story straight and you have now also forgotten that you presumed that all third beats also were louder than all else.

Any piece of music which has an accent (>) will show you that it does not always occur at the 1st and 3rd beat the fact that you are oblivious to this reality highlights your severe lack of repertoire knowledge and assuming a personality of musical authority is quite laughable. Otherwise you are so caught up in  your fantasy world that you are hearing delusional sounds of accents on 1st and 3rd everywhere, thats a unique auditory hallucination you have there which most probably extends from some peculiar grandiose musical delusions.

Here is one link where they often accent on the 4th beat:

What about some Chopin where the melodic line sings above everything else and plays all over the beats? Just on beats one and three? Dont be stupid!

Pure misinformation? You are hilarious and very foolish and I am sure that many who read your response to me here will realize how ignorant you really are! Oh my goodness very funny indeed! See the link posted of the Bartok above which makes YOUR misinformation here obvious surely you can source the sheet music for this, maybe the music library in russia at the univeristy you you studied has it or perhaps you have an autographed copy from Richter??
You continually ask for recordings from people on here when you are unable to talk your way out of a situtation, you do realize this does not score you any brownie points? You already challenged others on pianostreet (eg: ronde_des_sylphes  https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=65613.msg692535#msg692535) where you gave excuses to stall and never produced evidence that you could produce the same. You obviously have not learned your lesson to demand recordings from people when they call you up on your rubbish.

You realy believe that that your idea that all music is accented on the 1st and 3rd beat is a mainstream music ideology and worthy of a serious discussion, I for one as a piano teacher for over 25 years say you are full of rubbish on this point thus your entire discussion falls apart and is not worthy of serious discussion especially as your position is that you are a musical authority who has rubbed shoulders with the likes of Sviatoslav Richter lol!! I'm not sorry to burst your imaginary world bubble.

It is a wonderful idea "not to be stupid". Why don't you apply it to you self in this case?
Are you able to hear music? Don't you hear permanent accents on beat "one" in Romanian Dances? Why did you bring them in this case?

By the way, in marches and dances accent on "one" is necessary. I wrote about this in many my posts. However, in Chopin's Study op.25 no.1 it is already not appropriate. What did you try to prove, when you brought here this page? Where are all the indications for the Intensity we are talking about? Try to understand before arguing.

Stresses on beat ONE and THREE are taught in textbooks for all 4/4 time signatures. It is has nothing to do with me. If I mentioned both of these recommended accents, or only one - it does not change anything in our case.

[lostinidlewonder]

It is a wonderful idea "not to be stupid". Why don't you apply it to you self in this case?

Yes it is a wonderful idea, something you have troubles to contend with since your opening post started with absurdity:
 

Today, many music schools and teachers stamp musicians with the same defect.  They teach all musicians (including singers) that notes on the counts  "one" and  "three" must be louder than others.

Your statement is that it MUST happen on the 1st and 3rd throughout AND at these points the notes are louder than all else, go have a look at your opening post which states this. I have provided you an example where it does not happen ALWAYS and no one will teach it in this manner, admit defeat or continue your delusion.

Don't you hear permanent accents on beat "one" in Romanian Dances? Why did you bring them in this case?

Don't you hear that the 4th beat is stronger than all the others in many places in the opening? Are you ears still working? Hello!?? Go have a look at the score and notice the use of accents in many places other than the 1st and 3rd beat. Please list all the music schools that teach Bartok who go against the composers articulation indications and like zombies only accent the 1st and 3rd.

However, in Chopin's Study op.25 no.1 it is already not appropriate. What did try to prove, when you brought here this page? Where are all the indications for the Intensity we are talking about? Try to understand before arguing.

Are you senile? The Chopin example shows that accents on the 1st and 3rd are not above all the other notes which you say happens all the time erroneously. The singing voice of the Chopin makes your suggestion that this error only happens on 1st and 3rd continually look stupid. The indication of intensity is done with the length of the notes written in the score you may notice the melodic lines are written with longer notes implying intensity, please learn about how music is written and please try to understand what you type before posting.

Stresses on beat ONE and THREE are taught in textbooks for all 4/4 time signatures. It is has nothing to do with me. If I mentioned both of these recommended accents, or only one - it does not change anything in our case.

You keep changing your story, you said AND not OR in your second sentence in this thread concerning the accents on the 1st and 3rd beat, now you are changing this and saying OR, furthermore as I mentioned before you are changing your stance in asking for an example where it never occurs which is being silly. Which text books say that you must accent 1+3 all the time as you stated in your first two sentences? You have said in your opening post:

 

Today, many music schools and teachers stamp musicians with the same defect.  They teach all musicians (including singers) that notes on the counts  "one" and  "three" must be louder than others.

I have not been to any music school which demands this all the time. You are assuming that it happens all the time not me, no text book will agree with you that it happens ALL THE TIME.

[vladimirdounin]

Why don't you post examples from youtube of all these numerous examples where you see people accenting the 1st and 3rd beat making their notes here louder than all others throughout their entire playing? If you really want to support yourself post the teachers who spread this wrong teaching you suggest, give us a list of the schools you suggest teach this way and list some professional pianists who do this since as you say it "Today, many music schools and teachers stamp musicians with the same defect." Let's see your sample space because I am sure we will see what it is all worth then.

My pleasure! I fulfilled you request:

These pianists DO NOT stress "ONE" and "THREE"  all the way:
Pollini

Lisitsa

Bunin

Perhia

Good chance to compare and decide  on this set:

  Half of these pianist are very musical, half are just musical acrobats.
The difference is amazingly huge.
1. Michael Zadora 00:00
2. Friedrich Wuhrer 02:04
3. Nikita Magaloff 04:11
4. Vlado Perlemuter 06:45
5. Alexander Uninsky 09:12
6. Shura Cherkassky 11:33
7. Cor de Groot 13:59
8. Franco Mannino 16:06
9. Earl Wild 18:31
10. Abbey Simon 21:12
11. Milosz Magin 23:41
12. Geza Anda 26:16
13. Robert Goldsand 28:53
14. Georges Cziffra 32:02
15. Sergio Fiorentino 34:26
16. Samson Francois 36:46
17. Friedrich Gulda 39:40
18. John Browning 41:50
19. Dino Ciani 44:20
20. Paul Badura-Skoda 46:52

Good set for comparison as well:

Please, listen not only  to first 4 bars but at least to 16.
All these below play with "ONE" and "THREE" louder than other notes:
teacher -

teacher -

teacher -

teacher -

teacher -

teacher -

student -

Gavrilov   

Lang Lang 

Paderewsky

Rubinstein

Ashkenazy

Gorowitz

Sokolov 

[vladimirdounin]

Yes it is a wonderful idea, something you have troubles to contend with since your opening post started with absurdity:
 
Your statement is that it MUST happen on the 1st and 3rd throughout AND at these points the notes are louder than all else, go have a look at your opening post which states this. I have provided you an example where it does not happen ALWAYS and no one will teach it in this manner, admit defeat or continue your delusion.

Don't you hear that the 4th beat is stronger than all the others in many places in the opening? Are you ears still working? Hello!?? Go have a look at the score and notice the use of accents in many places other than the 1st and 3rd beat. Please list all the music schools that teach Bartok who go against the composers articulation indications and like zombies only accent the 1st and 3rd.
Are you senile? The Chopin example shows that accents on the 1st and 3rd are not above all the other notes which you say happens all the time erroneously. The singing voice of the Chopin makes your suggestion that this error only happens on 1st and 3rd continually look stupid. The indication of intensity is done with the length of the notes written in the score you may notice the melodic lines are written with longer notes implying intensity, please learn about how music is written and please try to understand what you type before posting.
You keep changing your story, you said AND not OR in your second sentence in this thread concerning the accents on the 1st and 3rd beat, now you are changing this and saying OR, furthermore as I mentioned before you are changing your stance in asking for an example where it never occurs which is being silly. Which text books say that you must accent 1+3 all the time as you stated in your first two sentences? You have said in your opening post:

 
I have not been to any music school which demands this all the time. You are assuming that it happens all the time not me, no text book will agree with you that it happens ALL THE TIME.

Bring here  a photo of text book that says anything different about beats "one" and "three" than I quoted.

Your answer consists only of nonsense mixed with insults. It is boring to read. Wasting of time.

[lostinidlewonder]

My pleasure! I fulfilled you request:

LOLx194539^999! What you have posted does not support what you are saying about overplaying the 1st and 3rd beat, now all can see that you are indeed suffering auditory hallucinations. No one will agree with you that the pianists you claim are overplaying 1st and 3rd beat are doing any of this at all, lets just wait and see how many people agree with you, let me start by saying you are wrong and imagining this all. This is proof that everything you are hearing is a fantasy.

Secondly, posting many examples to appear as if you have a lot of evidence is silliness, one only has to view a single video from what you posted to realize that your examples miss the mark. You perhaps hope that the multiple examples will discourage people from looking at them and thus just accept that you must be correct since you have soooo many examples, unfortunately we just have to listen to a random single example and notice that your false fears of improper accenting of the 1st and 3rd beat is all in your own fantasy. Or perhaps you will now think that your ears must be much finer tuned than everyone elses.

Bring here  a photo of text book that says anything different about beats "one" and "three" than I quoted.

Your answer consists only of nonsense mixed with insults. It is boring to read. Wasting of time.

My answers have you unable to respond and thus trying to evade it all, It really is no surprise that you have no idea how to respond because you haven't the insight to do so. You are unwilling to even look at the sheet music for the Bartok which obviously shows stresses on the 4th beat which no one with musical education will ignore however you claim that MANY would ignore it and like zombies stress the 1st and 3rd beat.

My responses seem boring to you but you are most probably more unwilling to consider them because they drag you out of your fantasy world, a bubble that you need to stay within which is quite understandable.

[vladimirdounin]

LOLx194539^999! What you have posted does not support what you are saying about overplaying the 1st and 3rd beat, now all can see that you are indeed suffering auditory hallucinations. No one will agree with you that the pianists you claim are overplaying 1st and 3rd beat are doing any of this at all, lets just wait and see how many people agree with you, let me start by saying you are wrong and imagining this all. This is proof that everything you are hearing is a fantasy.

Secondly, posting many examples to appear as if you have a lot of evidence is silliness, one only has to view a single video from what you posted to realize that your examples miss the mark. You perhaps hope that the multiple examples will discourage people from looking at them and thus just accept that you must be correct since you have soooo many examples, unfortunately we just have to listen to a random single example and notice that your false fears of improper accenting of the 1st and 3rd beat is all in your own fantasy. Or perhaps you will now think that your ears must be much finer tuned than everyone elses.
My answers have you unable to respond and thus trying to evade it all, It really is no surprise that you have no idea how to respond because you haven't the insight to do so. You are unwilling to even look at the sheet music for the Bartok which obviously shows stresses on the 4th beat which no one with musical education will ignore however you claim that MANY would ignore it and like zombies stress the 1st and 3rd beat.

My responses seem boring to you but you are most probably more unwilling to consider them because they drag you out of your fantasy world, a bubble that you need to stay within which is quite understandable.

I know this problem very well. Even when I self play on purpose my opposite version of stresses, people say that they do not hear any difference at all.  Because human ears need a special training on Intensity, especially in a high register , like in op. 25 no. 1.
I hope that you at least heard them in my "Rule, Britannia!" pair,  or you did not as well?

I ordered a special device from the "Sibelius" developer just for accurate Intensity measuring. However, they only stole my $ 700 and did not make it. 

Yes, your Bartok example has at the beginning accents on beat FOUR, but accents on beat ONE are still there as well, and they are done permanently in both dances.

I told already, that in music for legs stresses on one and three are all right.  Marches and dances (especially mass dances) can and sometimes should be like that.  However it does not work absolutely for soul, heart and mind, like in op.25 no.1. It is a pity that you are not able to hear the difference between good and bad performers of this beautiful Study. Fortunately, normal, not brainwashed people hear this difference perfectly and appreciate natural stresses instead of artificial, soldiery ones. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Nice to see you talk past everything, it shows your inability to debate your point when confronted with opposing ideology. All the music examples you posted do not highlight accenting the 1st and 3rd beat erroneously as you stated in your first two sentences in this thread, a made up problem you believe can be found everywhere. I shall again copy paste my request which you said you would oblige but you simply posted videos which do not demonstrate one iota:

REPEATED REQUEST SINCE vladimirdounin failed to satisfy the request and instead posted videos for a totally different reason other than what was asked of him:

"Why don't you post examples from youtube of all these numerous examples where you see people accenting the 1st and 3rd beat making their notes here louder than all others throughout their entire playing?"

I know this problem very well. Even when I self play on purpose my opposite version of stresses people say that they do not hear any difference at all.  Because human ears need a special training on Intensity, especially in a high register , like in op. 25 no. 1.
I hope that you at least heard them in my "Rule, Britannia!" pair,  or you did not as well?

And here we have it, you say you have some kind of special training to hear stresses and Intensity (with a capital I!!! oh yes because it is a field that requires decades of research according to you lol) on notes that normal people are unable to appreciate so much so that it is a "problem" that you know well lol, wow you are such an amazing music guru, you should be training all the teachers at all the top schools in the world!! /end sarcasm.

I ordered a special device from the "Sibelius" developer just for accurate Intensity measuring. However, they only stole my $ 700 and did not make it. 

Amazing how everyone is out to get you even Sibelius who stole money from you and did not deliever a "special device", goodness me. Paranoid delusions as well?? Perhaps seeing a doctor is better for you because I think if we encourage your delusions by taking you serious this is not good for your health.

Yes, your Bartok example has at the beginning accents on beat FOUR, but accents on beat ONE are still there as well, and they are done permanently in both dances.

Not permanently on the 1st beat at all, your special training to hear intensity fails to notice that there are several bars where it is on the fourth beat where it is much stronger than all else. In your opening post you claim that on the 1st and 3rd beat these notes ALL stand out above all else and is done by many people erronerously, this claim totally fails with the example I have shown you and no one would do such things.

I told already, that in music for legs stresses on one and three are all right.  Marches and dances (especially mass dances) can and sometimes should be like that. 

This means nothing and is avoiding your assumption in your very first two sentences in this thread that many teachers and students (and even accomplished pianists who were added to your list) are stressing 1st and 3rd beat the time and making music terrible because of it. This is a fantasy of yours that I have called you up on and so far you have been unable to talk your way out of it.

However it does not work absolutely for soul, heart and mind,

Meaningless drivel.

It is a pity that you are not able to hear the difference between good and bad performers of this beautiful Study.

It has nothing to do with hearing a good peformance, you seem to like to change the situation of argument and think we don't notice it, the discussion is about erroneous accents on the 1st and 3rd beats which you claim many teachers, students and performers do, you attempted to post a list of many examples where this happens but when listening to them we see NOTHING that you are fear mongering and on top of that pretending you know much better. Let me copy paste again what was asked of you:

"Why don't you post examples from youtube of all these numerous examples whe"re you see people accenting the 1st and 3rd beat making their notes here louder than all others throughout their entire playing?"

Fortunately, normal, not brainwashed people hear this difference perfectly and appreciate natural stresses instead of artificial, soldiery ones.

And yet not one person is going to support you from all the videos you posted that the performers, some acclaimed ones, are stressing the 1st and 3rd beats so much so that they stand above all other notes as you stated in your very first two sentences in this thread. It seems like you are the only brainwashed one here, lost in your own world of fantasy and delusions of grandeur.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

This is a very strange thread. Firstly, the examples: I certainly didn't listen to all of them, but the second group *weren't* conforming in bulk to some ONE two Three four stress stereotype.

Why is it so difficult to see that advanced pianists have more sophisticated ways of indicating to the listener where the barlines fall and what the time signature is than by bludgeoning them into submission by accenting beats 1 and / or 3 to the point it is practically a sfz marking? And, on a related note, that the intensity of individual melodic notes is often dictated, not by their position in the bar, but by their position within the phrase which contains them?

[keypeg]

I listened to hear what I could hear.  In some I heard a kind of "fixed expressiveness" which set itself into two four-beat phrases which can be interesting, but if perpetual, becomes predictable and monotonous.  If anything, these might reflect a stressing of beat 1 as a kind of lingering, but less so of 3 (that I didn't hear).  Others were like a seamless flow that swelled and ebbed over a number of measures.  That is what I heard subjectively.  I did not bother listening to those teachers whose teaching I already know from having studied other things on-line, esp. one or two who are good for physical technical things, but not necessarily for interpretation.  Since my need is the former, I do look at those.

In the collection video, one stood out for me: "6. Shura Cherkassky 11:33"
The first thing that grabbed me was what he does with the LH notes.  They are more prominent but without obscuring the important RH line. They swell and ebb to add texture, meaning or emotion, and there is a dance between the two voices.  At times I hear a bit of countermelody in a few notes brought out, again in the LH.  The whole thing is shaped into long lines.  At times it slows, again for a reason.

I would be interested in knowing what else is in there which I may have missed.

-------
There was a comment, I think, something like that if a thing can't be heard easily anyway, what point is there since the listening audience won't hear it either.  But in my own work as a student, at a more fundamental level, I have learned that hidden things can have an overall effect.  One might work on a basic thing or detail in a dry studied way, in the course of working with one's teacher, and the result is a new element, where someone listening to before and after will say "I don't know.  There is something about this second recording which touches me in a way the first one doesn't."   It is not necessarily these things presented here, which seem a bit simplistic, but that may also be the presentation.

[keypeg]

This was addressed to me:

1. If I understood you correctly, you say that I can not know "what people are taught" in their schools and private classes, when I am listening to the result of their education - their music? So, if a chef at restaurant gives me disgusting food and tailor made for me a costume that is too small for me, I have no right to comment on their training?

No, you did not understand me correctly.  You have stated that (almost) everyone is taught the same thing, which is this 1 and 3 thing.   This (forum) is the entire world, and unless a country is totally controlled in its education (which may have been so in Russia) then it is impossible to know what everyone is taught, even in one country.  The individual chef or tailor, perhaps, but one cannot know what all chefs or tailors everywhere, in the whole world are taught.

 In fact, I do have insights into this through my profession.  While I was first a trained teacher (not music), I moved later to being a professional translator.  I have translated hundreds, if not thousands, of transcripts, course descriptions, apprenticeship reports from: Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Canada, France, various African countries that were once French colonies, Hong Kong (Lycees there), which are then destined to be read in English speaking countries with their educational systems in Britain, the US, Canada, to name a few.  Germany alone has its umpteen school types: Realschule, Gymnasium, Gesamtschule; then bringing East and West into line after reunification.  Canada has CEGEP in Quebec; each province slightly different, Mike Harris' "reform" having left this province in shambles in his wake etc. etc.  Europe seems to be in flux since the EU; France seems to be bringing in a "Masters" title, and German university documents are suddenly sprouting English text.  ...... In my work, I have to take the educational background of Jacques in Switzerland, so that Mark in Canada can hire him according to similar background (which he has to figure out), or place him in the right university placement, or give him a license to practise nursing, or forestry, or mechanical engineering (or force him to go back to school, even though his credentials are superior.)  There is little commonality or equivalency anywhere.   I don't have the luxury of speculating what all chefs all learned universally everywhere due to the quality of the chef's salad I ate down the street.  I have to research and make sure.  I cannot see there being any such thing as everybody having been taught the same thing.

That is my professional experience, knowledge gained through in depth examination - and it is as boring as it seems.  In music itself, where I am in the role of a student, I study with teachers and talk to teachers and musicians.  From that I know that they represent different things, and were taught differently.  There are some common things, and some have also ranted to me about it.  For example, if music education goes toward competitions, and if competitions want standardized interpretation, then teachers guiding such students may well play it safe, which also narrows the student's sphere of possibilities, maybe closing down imagination of interpretation.

It just is not that simplistic.

[keypeg]

I was a bit puzzled about reference to text books (LiW first, Vladimir responding).  My experience as a student is limited.  In my first studies, we were given the RCM material.  A family member switched teachers, and went from RCM to Suzuki (later grades).  My present teacher creates his own material.  The one thing I have never seen is music being taught from a text book.  The RCM material simply had the pieces, but did not say how they should be played.  It was assumed that a teacher would guide a student.  The Suzuki book I glanced through did have advice about interpretation here and there, but did not give blanket rules.  The only place I did see it was in the RCM theory books, at the point of first learning about the three meter types "simple / compound / other" and these did mention the "strong weak middle weak" of 4/4.  I don't know whether any teachers turn that music theory into rules of practice.

[lostinidlewonder]

I was a bit puzzled about reference to text books (LiW first, Vladimir responding).

I didn't mention any text books, Vlad was the one. I have heard from another member that vlad has posted this same post on pianoworld and there too he talked past and ignored people who had concerns over his irrational ideology that many pianists and teachers and students accent the 1st and 3rd beat and play these notes above all else all the time. So it looks like indeed he isn't here to discuss anything but to have a medium where he can spew forth unusual ideas which have no truth behind them, that people try to take him seriously merely encourages the delusional thought patterns unfortunately.

[keypeg]

I didn't mention any text books, Vlad was the one.

I had thought so, but when I read through the thread before responding, I found this first from you at the end of a longer post:

I have not been to any music school which demands this all the time. You are assuming that it happens all the time not me, no text book will agree with you that it happens ALL THE TIME.

and his response to that (which was the only thing I had seen first time round) in the next post.

Bring here  a photo of text book that says anything different about beats "one" and "three" than I quoted.

That is why I referred to a textbook statement from the two of you.

I have heard from another member that vlad has posted this same post on pianoworld ....

 
The same and similar discussions are entertained in both forums, and I have been involved on both sites, to a greater or lesser degree in various threads.

[lostinidlewonder]

I had thought so, but when I read through the thread before responding, I found this first from you at the end of a longer post:

I mentioned no text book, it was because vlad who first suggested that what he is writing is found in books, here is the quote which started that weak attempt at trying to connect what is being said with text, something I had nothing to start with and merely responded to:

Quote from: vladimirdounin on Yesterday at 01:05:46 AM
Stresses on beat ONE and THREE are taught in textbooks for all 4/4 time signatures. It is has nothing to do with me....

Here he is pretending that his fears written in the very first two sentences of this thread, is connected to text. Yes we do have accents on 1st and 3rd and it can be found but he is trying to connect this with his first two statements which is the problem. By mentioning this quote above he must connect this to his opening statments because that is all I was talking about but with his habit of talking past people and trying to evade answering someone who is against his craziness it is no surprise he is unable to connect it and is trying to confusing the situation mixing truth with his lies. This is why I started discussing text because he tried to make it look that is first two sentences in this thread is supported by text which it is obviously not.

The same and similar discussions are entertained in both forums, and I have been involved on both sites, to a greater or lesser degree in various threads.

Then you see the pattern of the OP, I am only responding so that others who might take him seriously get my position that it is all nonsense and that the videos he posted do not support his claim one bit and that all his talking past us and changing what he is saying on the go and his delusions all run quite rampant.

[keypeg]

Ah, I missed the start of the textbook thing.

So in regard to textbooks.  I don't think that piano playing is taught from textbooks.  I've seen several venues.  One is the "method book".  Another is a series such as the RCM (known in the US as "celebration" I think). Another still is a "traditional thingy that has a series of repertoire, such as Czerny, Clementi, Inventions etc. with the belief (among the weaker teachers) that students playing through this stuff will teach everything in and of itself.  That is what I have seen in terms of actual material. The real teaching, imho, is done by the teacher, not the book.  To me "textbook" is immaterial.

[keypeg]

nm

[vladimirdounin]

nm

What "nm" does mean?

[keypeg]

It means "never mind" (changed mind)

[vladimirdounin]

It means "never mind" (changed mind)

Thanks for your explanation.

[keypeg]

Vladimir, did you miss my reply # 25 where I wrote about the music?

[vladimirdounin]

I listened to hear what I could hear.  In some I heard a kind of "fixed expressiveness" which set itself into two four-beat phrases which can be interesting, but if perpetual, becomes predictable and monotonous.  If anything, these might reflect a stressing of beat 1 as a kind of lingering, but less so of 3 (that I didn't hear).  Others were like a seamless flow that swelled and ebbed over a number of measures.  That is what I heard subjectively.  I did not bother listening to those teachers whose teaching I already know from having studied other things on-line, esp. one or two who are good for physical technical things, but not necessarily for interpretation.  Since my need is the former, I do look at those.

In the collection video, one stood out for me: "6. Shura Cherkassky 11:33"
The first thing that grabbed me was what he does with the LH notes.  They are more prominent but without obscuring the important RH line. They swell and ebb to add texture, meaning or emotion, and there is a dance between the two voices.  At times I hear a bit of countermelody in a few notes brought out, again in the LH.  The whole thing is shaped into long lines.  At times it slows, again for a reason.

I would be interested in knowing what else is in there which I may have missed.

-------
There was a comment, I think, something like that if a thing can't be heard easily anyway, what point is there since the listening audience won't hear it either.  But in my own work as a student, at a more fundamental level, I have learned that hidden things can have an overall effect.  One might work on a basic thing or detail in a dry studied way, in the course of working with one's teacher, and the result is a new element, where someone listening to before and after will say "I don't know.  There is something about this second recording which touches me in a way the first one doesn't."   It is not necessarily these things presented here, which seem a bit simplistic, but that may also be the presentation.

You have obviously a wonderful taste and ability to understand and analyse music. Congratulations!  Keep going in your musical development.

[keypeg]

You have obviously a wonderful taste and ability to understand and analyse music. Congratulations!  Keep going in your musical development.

Thank you.   Above all, I have an excellent teacher which was a serendipitous find by chance meeting.  Learning to hear is partly the ears we're born with, and partly guidance and exposure.

But I'm sure there are many others here, who simply haven't written in.  If they're note learners, they may have less reason to.

[keypeg]

What do you think of this version (54:47) ?

=3287

[vladimirdounin]

What do you think of this version (54:47) ?

=3287

Rubinstein plays this study much better than many others. However, he plays better by intuition, and not by exact knowledge: what to do and what not to do. Therefore, he is very inconsistent: he plays the same music excellently once, and then the same music later upside down.

I am very busy at the moment, but I want to make a video with a detailed analysis of just this study, when the opportunity arises.

Anyway, thanks for the interesting example.

[keypeg]

The only way to know if someone plays "by intuition" is be examining with that person what he does.  I've been given an assessment and things to listen for, and based on that it would seem to have been done by analyzing the music and making conscious decisions - lines being brought out at key moments and so forth.