Use of pedal in Etude op10, no.12 'revoloutionary'

[fowler]

Hi,

Have learnt this chopin etude, must say in my opinion one of the more easier studies he wrote, op.10 no.2 on the other hand has got to be the hardest he wrote I think, op25 no.12 as well, what the heck is that all about!! had a reasonable attempt at this 'ocean etude' but its sooooooo difficult, anyone agree?

Just wondering if anyone knows what amount of pedalling should be used throughout the piece (op 10, no.12). I have a digital piano so pedalling is needed more than a natural acoustic piano. But apart from that I dont really know specifically where to use pedal, thats of course if you are even meant to as there are no pedal marks on the sheet music I have. For example I dont know if you are meant to pedal the part in the middle of the piece where the music gets very dramatic, or the main theme parts at the start. Can anyone help? perhaps let me know of bars where you do pedal and not.

Thankyou.

[pianowelsh]

Pedalling is notorious in this piece every panel likes it different. The most common problem though is that people over pedal it rather than the other way. My teacher didn't like me to use full pedals but rather work with only the top portion of the pedal 1/2 and 1/4 ped and rely on good clear fingers. It will depend on whether you can do this on your digital? Speed will also effect it (the faster you play it the shallower your pedal will need to be or you won't be able to clear the sound quick enough). Generally keep the pedalling clear in the more chromatic sections if indeed you decide to use any. My first Russian teacher made me practice it always without pedal (in fact he made me practice everything without pedal!) - ? not sure of the long term effects of this way of practising on your fingers?! - I know mine are shorter than they used to be!!!

[argerich_smitten]

Before we get to the pedaling issue, I will state my disagreement with your comment about the difficulty of opus 25 # 12.  Every chopin etude is horribly difficult to play well; unlike many other difficult pieces (the Liszt etudes would fit here as a perfect example) that fall into your fingers over time, the chopin etudes are never safe.  In addition, the pianist must communicate the poetry that chopin has written.  That's why most pianists are in a constant struggle with these pieces.  The reason I believe the ocean wave is one of the easier etudes is it falls in your fingers more than most; compared to opus 10 # 1 which doesn't fall in the fingers at all (at least it certainly hasn't for me), and opus 10 # 2 which is just sadistic from the start. 

I don't have any pedal markings to give you specifically, but I would just advise to use the pedal pretty sparsely.  The clarity of the etude must shine through; using lot's of pedal just to accumulate noise for the drama of the etude isn't such a great idea.  The first time I played this etude i'd always use a lot of pedal to make it safer to play, but it lost it's charm of being a chopin etude.  About the middle of the piece:  I would definately play it with pedal, but once again don't go over board.  I don't believe there is any one way to pedal the etude either; you could try to use a little pedal on the left hand to carry the notes, and/or pedal to accent the r.h chords.  I'm sure there are many other things you could try too, but I think it's better to lean to the dry side.
last comment
learning a chopin etude on a digital piano is probably not a good idea.  If you just want to memorize the notes, fine; but this is a technical study.  The action and touch of a digital piano is a lot different than a 'real' piano, and you could be absorbing the technique incorrectly. 

[fowler]

learning a chopin etude on a digital piano is probably not a good idea.  If you just want to memorize the notes, fine; but this is a technical study.  The action and touch of a digital piano is a lot different than a 'real' piano, and you could be absorbing the technique incorrectly.

Thanks for the advice, I have to say my digital piano has weighted keys and an escapement function so the touch and action are supposed to be as natural and as real as possible to a 'real' piano. I hope learning the etudes on my piano will be ok, since I spent a lot of money on the piano.

I still think op25, no.12 is really hard though, coming back down the piano on the arpeggio's is very hard to get right for me

[pianowelsh]

Man you are right! Coming down is the hardest bit about the etude!!!! doing it cleanly takes real work and really dropping the dynamic level in the agitated middle section and keeping clarity is VERY hard. I have to say I do belive people often underestimate the difficulty of this etude. My old teacher frequently gives it to junior school students (the performances are NEVER artistic though) and really you haven't cracked any of the etudes until they don't sound like etudes anymore! It has to be admitted though there are harder ones. Op25/6 and 10 and 11 are massively more difficult to control technically than op 25/12 but if your coming to them from not having played many it IS hard - most people who say it's easy have in fact played them all and returned to it (in which case it does feel easy). It is definately the case that the more of these things you do the easier they get!
Relative to your pedalling though a good rule of thumb in the etudes is always to listen to the BASS and let it tell you the pedalling. I have to say that I used to like to play it wet at the opening but I do it really quite dry now - it somehow sounds more menacing and tense when its more finger than pedal. It is a good idea to do more in the middle though and when it returns in a grander way at the end. Which edition are you playing from (paderewski has some interesting suggestions!) You could always try playing it on a forte piano and use Chopins pedals - it should give you more of an idea what he felt like at that time (although so many student copies etc it's safe to say he would have changed his mind regularly!!) HAVE FUN

[jlh]

Here's how I pedal the beginning:

 [chord] [LH] Ab G F D Eb D B G Ab G F D Eb D B G Ab G F D Eb D C G C G C G C G  
P______________|            P______|             P_______|           P____________|

B Ab G F D Eb D B G Ab G F D Eb D B G Ab G F D Eb D C G C G C G C G B 
P____|             P______|            P______|             P____________P_

etc...

If you have specific questions about the use of pedal in other parts of the piece, let me know.