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Topic: Carl Czerny - his life  (Read 3010 times)

Offline cuberdrift

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Carl Czerny - his life
on: July 05, 2019, 12:06:02 PM
So, we only seem to know a little about the man who wrote more than a thousand works.

Anyone know about his personal life? Are there books on it? Do scholars know more than just the innumerable repititious  exercises he designed for students?

Was he gay? He apparently never married. What did he do in his free time? Does he have an autobiography or letters?

This should be of interest.

But first and foremost, which is/are, in your opinion, his greatest sonata/s?

Offline georgey

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Re: Carl Czerny - his life
Reply #1 on: July 05, 2019, 08:56:49 PM
I have many huge gaps in my knowledge of composer’s music.  Czerny is one of them.  So. I take a few moments to educate myself.  I should spend much more time listening to the Sonatas.  I am not familiar with any of them. Here is link to the fugue in his Op 7 Piano Sonata #1:  It is a quality fugue, without doubt, and would serve as a fine model for anyone considering writing a fugue in the early Romantic period style.



Brief description of the Sonatas taken from the following:
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1092&context=musicstudent

The eleven piano sonatas: a place in history
The publishing dates for Czerny’s piano sonatas range from 1820-1843. Seven of
the sonatas were published in two years: Sonata Nos. 3-5 in 1824 and Sonata Nos. 6-9 in
1827. Sonata Nos. 1, 2, and 10 were composed in close proximity to these more
productive years: Sonata No. 1 (1820), Sonata No. 2 (1821), and Sonata No. 10 (1831).
Sonata No. 11 was published in 1843, twelve years later. The fact that six [sic, I count 7] of the eleven
sonatas were published in 1824 and 1827 might bolster the theory that the sonatas were
conceived as a whole. This timeframe places most of Czerny’s piano sonatas within the
publication years of Beethoven’s last three piano sonatas and a large portion of
Schubert’s piano output. In other words, Czerny’s sonatas were brought to life in the
midst of some of the most important piano sonatas in history. 

 The early romantic sonata may be considered an exaggerated form of the classical
sonata; due to increased use of double periods, melodies were embellished and gained
prominence. Modulations became more frequent as a result of prevalent chomaticism and use of augmented 6th chords, diminished 7th chords, and chords with extended
harmonies. This surge in chromaticism also led to more dissonance and alternation
between major and minor tonalities. Texture expanded to reflect the scope and capability of modern pianos, and counterpoint saw resurgence as a valuable compositional tool.

Offline georgey

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Re: Carl Czerny - his life
Reply #2 on: July 05, 2019, 10:40:19 PM
Sorry for 2nd post - listened to several portions of the sonatas.  I enjoyed what I heard. 
I like the 9th sonata 1st and 2nd mvts.   

Discovered his 48 24 Preludes and Fugues Op. 856 - Similar to WTC it appears (all 24 keys), except the keys are done thru circle of 5ths, rather than chromatically.  Listened to a few - quality is very good - but obviously not that of JS Bach.  Very interesting nevertheless.  Ordered CD of this. 

Offline maxim3

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Re: Carl Czerny - his life
Reply #3 on: July 06, 2019, 10:38:18 PM
Czerny wrote an autobiographical sketch in 1842. See attachment.

His personal life was most likely uninteresting in the extreme, all he did was teach piano and compose. His compositions have never attracted more than passing interest. These are probably the reasons why little biographical information is available on Czerny. He's just not worth the time.

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Carl Czerny - his life
Reply #4 on: July 08, 2019, 07:13:24 AM
His gems are rather overshadowed by piles of mediocrity.

I understand he had a lot of cats.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline opus10no2

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Re: Carl Czerny - his life
Reply #5 on: July 08, 2019, 08:10:07 AM
His gems are rather overshadowed by piles of mediocrity.

I understand he had a lot of cats.

Thal



One of his gems, sounds like proto-Alkan.

When you recognize that Alkan's 'furious writing' in sturm und drang style is an extension of Beethovinian fury - you can recognize Czerny as the logical midpoint between.
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Carl Czerny - his life
Reply #6 on: July 09, 2019, 05:53:36 AM
Superb, that is a gem. If i did not know the composer i would have guessed Weber.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

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Re: Carl Czerny - his life
Reply #7 on: July 09, 2019, 08:43:59 AM
The links with Beethoven are indeed more than superficially apparent; there can be no doubt of the sense of pre-Alkan either. The fugal section begins so uncomfortably like the first movement of Beethoven's great C# minor Quartet that momentarily I almost began to wonder if CC was deliberately creating a kind of pastiche. Jones makes out a good case for this music which is vastly superior to some of those interminable exercises for which CC is still sadly best known even today (I remember first hearing Jones in a fine performance of a very different work, Busoni's Piano Concerto, in a Prom concert in London which was broadcast only because of industrial action).

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline opus10no2

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Re: Carl Czerny - his life
Reply #8 on: July 09, 2019, 10:13:19 AM
A composer who publishes a lot of chaff to go along with his wheat does a lot of favours to his bank balance but a lot or harm to his place in posterity!

Czerny was such a man and while it takes a bit of 'sifting'; it's worth it to see that he was a fine composer indeed.  ;D
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Offline klavieronin

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Re: Carl Czerny - his life
Reply #9 on: July 09, 2019, 11:22:14 AM
A very different side to Carl Czerny;

Offline ranjit

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Re: Carl Czerny - his life
Reply #10 on: July 10, 2019, 07:14:05 AM


One of his gems, sounds like proto-Alkan.

When you recognize that Alkan's 'furious writing' in sturm und drang style is an extension of Beethovinian fury - you can recognize Czerny as the logical midpoint between.

Thanks for posting this! It had never crossed my mind to check out the other works of Czerny.

Offline opus10no2

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Re: Carl Czerny - his life
Reply #11 on: July 10, 2019, 03:49:34 PM




Czerny's original melodist gifts were a tad limited compared to the great composers but he was very gifted at variation form as these displayed.

Rare examples of Czerny played by famed great pianists, they really put forward a very good case for these works to become concert pieces!
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Offline georgey

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Re: Carl Czerny - his life
Reply #12 on: July 19, 2019, 12:12:36 AM
Received my Czerny Op. 856 24 preludes and fugues CD today (Kamiya on Camerata label).  Liner notes are very good: 

Paraphrase:
Czerny was born in Vienna, the son of very poor parents.  Was unable to travel because he had to maintain his impoverished parents.  He became rich as a well-paid teacher and composer.  THREE TYPES OF MUSIC HE COMPOSED – the first 2 helped make him rich, the 3rd type were left largely unpublished “apparently because the music world didn’t want to recognize him as a composer of such works and he himself didn’t want to disrupt his lauded and highly lucrative position in the musical scene.”

THREE TYPES OF MUSIC HE COMPOSED:
1) Studies, exercises and other pedagogic works.  ( =  lots of $)
2) Gallant, brilliant or virtuoso piano compositions.  ( =  lots of $)
3) Sonatas and other serious piano works, symphonies, string quartets, church music, choral and orchestra works.  (Largely unpublished)

Stravinsky once said of Czerny's overall output: "Always rated the full-blooded musician higher than the valuable pedagogue".

I am enjoying hearing the Op. 856 P&F - published the year of his death and dedicated to Liszt.

Offline cuberdrift

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Re: Carl Czerny - his life
Reply #13 on: August 03, 2019, 12:06:10 PM
Received my Czerny Op. 856 24 preludes and fugues CD today (Kamiya on Camerata label).  Liner notes are very good: 

Paraphrase:
Czerny was born in Vienna, the son of very poor parents.  Was unable to travel because he had to maintain his impoverished parents.  He became rich as a well-paid teacher and composer.  THREE TYPES OF MUSIC HE COMPOSED – the first 2 helped make him rich, the 3rd type were left largely unpublished “apparently because the music world didn’t want to recognize him as a composer of such works and he himself didn’t want to disrupt his lauded and highly lucrative position in the musical scene.”

THREE TYPES OF MUSIC HE COMPOSED:
1) Studies, exercises and other pedagogic works.  ( =  lots of $)
2) Gallant, brilliant or virtuoso piano compositions.  ( =  lots of $)
3) Sonatas and other serious piano works, symphonies, string quartets, church music, choral and orchestra works.  (Largely unpublished)

Stravinsky once said of Czerny's overall output: "Always rated the full-blooded musician higher than the valuable pedagogue".

I am enjoying hearing the Op. 856 P&F - published the year of his death and dedicated to Liszt.

Great seeing your admiration of him.

Do you think it's worth it to study his etudes? They're so many, I don't even know which to choose. There are dozens of books of exercises.

It's true what they say about the Op. 365 - it IS insanely hard (if you take the metronome markings seriously). I'd say they'd give Liszt a run for his money.

I did take up a bunch of the etudes before, but that was when I was still starting out on formal lessons.

EDIT: I've managed to peek a look into the "Selected Pianoforte Studies", a compilation by Heinrich Germer of several key studies from Czerny's enormous pedagogical output.

Of interest is a passage there that attests to the realisation as early as the 19th century that Czerny wrote crazy tempo markings:

Quote from: Heinrich Germer's Preface  - 1888 (trans. from German)
The sketchy manner in which Czerny wrote some of his musical passages has bee nrevised, in the interest of clarity and accuracy. Moreover, the authenticity of each work has been established by a close comparison with the original editions. The tempo indications of the composer, in the form of metronome numbers, have been retained. It would indeed take a virtuoso to follow these exactly as specified! An efficient student will do well to decrease the speed about 20 to 25 percent without damaging the original intent of the composer.

Will check this book out.

I'm also adding this clip here featuring a brilliant furious movement from his first Sonata which I particularly enjoy.



Check out one of his Symphonies:

Offline georgey

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Re: Carl Czerny - his life
Reply #14 on: August 03, 2019, 11:35:33 PM
Great seeing your admiration of him.

Do you think it's worth it to study his etudes? They're so many, I don't even know which to choose. There are dozens of books of exercises.


I don’t play piano, so I can’t comment on Czerny etudes.  They are still highly regarded though from what I read. 

I will say that from a new listener to his music point of view (specifically op 856 24 Preludes and Fugues for piano), I hear a lot of Mendelssohn sounds in many of the preludes.  Mendelssohn was born 18 years after Czerny.  I wonder if Czerny was influenced by Mendelssohn (or visa-versa).  Not sure when op. 856 was written.  It was published in year of Czerny death (1857) and 10 years after Mendelssohn died.  To my ear, many of the Czerny fugues are very close in quality to the Mendelssohn fugues I’ve heard for piano. 

Offline cuberdrift

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Re: Carl Czerny - his life
Reply #15 on: August 25, 2019, 08:27:46 AM
I'm bumping this thread just so that it is kept somehow active.

If any of you know of any other thread in the forum which is focused on Czerny's actual music apart from his monolith of etudes, I'd like to know.

In any case, I was thinking, how would an entire recital of Czerny be like? Which concerto of his is your favourite? What are the best Czerny etudes, the ones which in your opinion are really of great quality and can be played in concert not just as mere exercises?

I'd imagine such a program would incorporate a concerto as the finale, then perhaps a Sonata of his (his sonatas are pretty damn long lol), and then a bunch of fugues (as georgey mentioned) and also transcriptions of popular music, like variations etc. Some Nocturnes as well. And some etudes. Of course his famous Toccata.
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