Again on proper distance from the piano

[Daniel_piano]

I think still have some problem with sitting at the correct distance and heigh and I need some help
I've read almost everywhere from "alternative" "injury-free" and probably more "effective" piano teaching approaches that the correct distance from the keyboard should enable the elbows to be positioned in front of the body when needed
So the correct distance from the keyboard from the keyboard is such that elbows movements toward the body are not prevented by the sides of the body

I used this distance thinking it was okay but I noticed that when I have to play mostly or only in the black keys my arms is too stretched, the elbow is too high and I lose balance like I was falling from my sitting position

I was observing one Taubman lesson in video (the only one I've been able to obtain) either when she plays on the white keys or on the black keys her arm is always in the same parallel position, like playing on the black keys or moving from the white keys to the black keys were something requiring a very little movement, but it requires a huge movement in my case

Any thought and suggestion?

Thanks
Daniel

[Brian Healey]

It seems odd that going from white keys to black keys would require a huge movement, no matter how you sit. Going to sit at the piano for a second to try something.........

Okay, I think that when you are playing on the black keys, you naturally move your hands further into keys, right? That is, when you go from playing white keys to black keys, your hands move away from your body and in toward the head board of the piano. That's a good thing, you're supposed to do that, but when you move your hands away, it causes your wrists and elbows to lift. So you have to sort of lean into it in order to keep your arms parallel. When you make that movement in toward the black keys, lean your torso forward as well. Using your torso as you move around the keyboard goes a long way toward keeping your arms and wrists correctly positioned.

Does that help? It's hard to know what the problem is without seeing you sit at the piano.

Peace,
Bri

[Daniel_piano]

It seems odd that going from white keys to black keys would require a huge movement, no matter how you sit. Going to sit at the piano for a second to try something.........

Okay, I think that when you are playing on the black keys, you naturally move your hands further into keys, right? That is, when you go from playing white keys to black keys, your hands move away from your body and in toward the head board of the piano. That's a good thing, you're supposed to do that, but when you move your hands away, it causes your wrists and elbows to lift. So you have to sort of lean into it in order to keep your arms parallel. When you make that movement in toward the black keys, lean your torso forward as well. Using your torso as you move around the keyboard goes a long way toward keeping your arms and wrists correctly positioned.

Does that help? It's hard to know what the problem is without seeing you sit at the piano.

Peace,
Bri

Yes this helps
By moving my torso I feel more balanced when playing in the black keys and the arm keep parallel without stretching
What worries me now is that having been taught that I should sit still and never moving and I don't know if I will even be able to let my teacher and the body examination use this movement

Thanks
Daniel

[xvimbi]

Yes this helps
By moving my torso I feel more balanced when playing in the black keys and the arm keep parallel without stretching

There is one big problem. Moving the torso in and out is only possible at very slow speed, but if your hands have to move in and out of the keyboard with lightning fast pace, you need to find a different solution. I think you are sitting too far back.

What worries me now is that having been taught that I should sit still and never moving and I don't know if I will even be able to let my teacher and the body examination use this movement

Hey, you are going through all this trouble to read all those books about correct movements, posture, etc., and you even post in lengthy essays what you've learned, and then you are afraid to apply it? I don't understand.

[richard w]

The other day, I was reading through a thread you started last year on this subject, and Xvimbi's advice that the angle between the upper arm and the forearm should be about 110° with the fingers positioned on the white keys seems to put me in about the right place. However, assessing this angle every time one sits at the piano is a chore, so I noticed that if my kneecaps are just under the keyboard everything else will follow. Of course, everyone is a different size and shape, but having a straightforward point of reference means you will be able to easily find the correct position easily every time you play.

Regarding bringing one's elbows in front of the body, I find that new difficulties emerge. If I fix my forehand and hand in relation to my upper arm, and then move my upper arm at the shoulder in front of and away from the body, I notice that the forearm and hand tilts accordingly. This tilt can be corrected by rotating the forearm, but (for me at least) when the elbow is brought in front of the body the forearm is already fully rotated, so the thumb ends up being higher up in relation to the hand than I would want. Correcting this with further rotation seems to negate any advantages of avoiding tension and stress that might have existed by adopting this position in the first place. I therefore conclude that whilst this position may have its uses, I don't believe that it should play as prominent a part as you might be thinking. So, if you are sitting further away than you want to for the purposes of getting your elbows comfortably in front of you, I would suggest reconsidering, and maybe make this kind of move more of an exception than the rule. Hopefully that makes sense.

Regarding body movements, I can see completely why your teachers would object to Lang Lang-style body movements (I must confess to really having no idea how Lang Lang looks when he plays, as I've never seen him, but based on others' comments, I'm imagining that this is the best way to convey what I'm thinking of here), but if your body movements are solely made for technical reasons you should have no problem with your teacher. If you do, explain why you are moving this way, and if he disagrees ask him to show you what he would do instead. Maybe you will be shown an alternative way of getting around the problem, or maybe you will end up convincing your teacher. As far as exams go, I'd have thought how you move is of no consequence compared to how you sound.

By the way, I'm in the same boat as you in that I'm also looking into the movements I make, so I don't have every aspect of technique clear in my own mind just yet, but I hope that my thoughts so far help you a little.



Richard.

[Brian Healey]

What worries me now is that having been taught that I should sit still and never moving and I don't know if I will even be able to let my teacher and the body examination use this movement

Why not? If you watch almost any great pianist, they always use their torso to guide their hands. This not only applies to moving in and out, but up and down. If you were playing with both hands toward the bottom end (like at the beginning of Khachaturian's Toccata), you would move your torso in and to the left in order to stabilize your arms. Otherwise they would be at an awkward angle.

What I'm talking about is very different from the extraneous body movement of someone like Lang Lang, as Richard said. I find moving the torso a neccessity.

Moving the torso in and out is only possible at very slow speed, but if your hands have to move in and out of the keyboard with lightning fast pace, you need to find a different solution.

Not really, I move my torso even at very fast speeds. It's not exactly a matter of black keys = torso in, white keys = torso out. At a fast speed you would look like you're having a seizure! It's more of graceful movement where you're simply following where your hands are going in somewhat circular torso movement.

Peace,
Bri

[jazzyprof]

It is not often that you will actually need to have your elbows in front of your body when playing.  The times when they are in front of your body is when your left hand has to play something in the high treble range or your right hand has to play something in the bass range.  To reach thoe notes it is also helpful to shift your center of gravity, that is, pivot about your butt so that your torso leans slightly to the left or to the right.  If your primary concern in finding your proper distance is to enable "the elbows to be positioned in front of the body"  you may end up sitting too far away.  The 110 degree angle between forearm and upper arm mentioned previously sounds about right.     

[Daniel_piano]

Hey, you are going through all this trouble to read all those books about correct movements, posture, etc., and you even post in lengthy essays what you've learned, and then you are afraid to apply it? I don't understand.

Well, unfortunately the teachers in the body examination are all teachers that I know
All of them suffer periodically from tendonitis
They all use bad movements and if I would have to mention "twisting" or "proper alignment of the hand, wrist and arm" they would stare at me like I was completely crazy
An ex-teacher of mine, now in the body examination, taught to me that what I know known as "ulnar deviation/abduction or twisting" is the only way to play with the thumb and when I was young enough to find a healthier way on my own she would scold me obliging me to twist my wrist instead
She also scolded me when I instinctively played with flat fingers on the black keys and she scolded me if I didn't keep my elbow locked at my sides
I also was instinctively aware of how thumb over is better in fast scales but when she noticed I used thumb over she scolded me obliging me to do the scale thumb under
So, I'm faced with a lot of conservatives injuried teachers who think finger oriented approach is the only one, that bodymap is an anatomy textbook and that Taubman, Alexander, Feldenkrais, Golandsky are all exotic foods or diseases

Daniel

[Daniel_piano]

It is not often that you will actually need to have your elbows in front of your body when playing.  The times when they are in front of your body is when your left hand has to play something in the high treble range or your right hand has to play something in the bass range.

Well, not only this
There's also the problem so middle C octave, both right or left hand
In this case too it's not easy to keep the hand, wrist and arm aligned without having in your elbow in front of your body

See my horrendous drawing to understand what I mean
Basically there's an "alignment limit" (the middle C octave) in which the you can't keep the hand, wrist, arm alignment because of the hindrance of body sides

To reach thoe notes it is also helpful to shift your center of gravity, that is, pivot about your butt so that your torso leans slightly to the left or to the right.  If your primary concern in finding your proper distance is to enable "the elbows to be positioned in front of the body"  you may end up sitting too far away.  The 110 degree angle between forearm and upper arm mentioned previously sounds about right.     

I don't understand this 110 degree
If the arm is parallel to the keyboard and in a straight line with the tip of the elbow at the same line of the top of the white keys, should be the angle 90 degree?

Daniel

[Daniel_piano]

After reading all the answers here (and not completely understanding how torso movements can be "little") I looked for more information
I found this website that I thought could be interesting for many
https://www.hope.edu/academic/music/pulse/

Maybe using the examples of this website it would be easier to undertand these "torso movements"
Ehmm... maybe you could even explain it to me, since I didn't understand a yota

Thanks
Daniel

[richard w]

I don't understand this 110 degree
If the arm is parallel to the keyboard and in a straight line with the tip of the elbow at the same line of the top of the white keys, should be the angle 90 degree?

Ok Daniel, point at the spot on the floor about 30 cm left of the pedals with your arm completely straight (left for the left arm, or right for the right arm). Now lift the forearm back to the horizontal position retaining the position of your upper arm. The angle between the upper arm and the forearm in the vertical plane should now be something like 110°. Did that help?

I'll have a look at your link tomorrow - I might learn from it. Time now for a bit of PPI. (The fact that I was working on my tax return and didn't even touch my piano tonight may be a slight drawback, though.  )



Richard.