Using the three pedals?

[jono]

Hi! I'm just wondering how to know when to use the middle pedal and the left pedal. In the notes is it marked in some way?Like when you are supposed to play with the right pedal its a line, or it says "Ped" and "*", underneth the notes. Orare yu just supposed to improvise like you want yourself?
And besides, pieces can not get "overplayed", only OVERLISTENED! The pieces are still as beatyful, even though you pro:shave listened them to bits.
That's all for this time.   Jono

[bernhard]

Score direction to use left pedal: u.c. (una corda). To release it: t.c. (tre corda).

Bear in mind that both the effect and mechanics of the left pedal are completely different in a grand piano and in an upright. To use the left pedal effectively you really need  a grand piano (or a digital the simulates it).

Score direction to use sostenuto pedal (middle pedal): Usually there is no specific direction, instead pedal notes indicate its necessity. If the score has a note (usually in the bass) that must be held for several bars – and it would clearly impossible to do sot with either fingers or right pedal, then one uses the middle pedal. Also, if such a note has an indication that it should be depressed silently for several bars (indicating that the composer wants that particular string to be free to vibrate sympathetically), then again this is the indication to use the sostenuto pedal.

Bear in mind that not all grands have a sostenuto pedal, and no upright has one (although they may have a middle pedal it is a muffler, not a sostenuto pedal). So again you need a grand with three pedals (or a digital that simulates it).

Arguably the best reference on the use of pedals is Joseph Banowetz “The pianist’s guide to pedalling” (Indiana University Press).

And surely a piece can be overplayed. Just sit at the piano and play Fur Elise ten hours a day for the next six years . There. You just overplayed it. And if you do it on a virgil clavier or on a switched off digital, you managed to overplay it without overlistening to it! But the converse is not true. In order to overlisten someone will have to overplay it, even if it is the CD player.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[nav]

Hi,
I have a Baldwin upright (Hamilton series) and it has a sostenuto pedal (middle pedal).  Looks like some new upright pianos have a middle sostenuto pedal.

Naveen

[anda]

And surely a piece can be overplayed. Just sit at the piano and play Fur Elise ten hours a day for the next six years . There. You just overplayed it. And if you do it on a virgil clavier or on a switched off digital, you managed to overplay it without overlistening to it! But the converse is not true. In order to overlisten someone will have to overplay it, even if it is the CD player.

 

[puma]

I also have a Baldwin upright - spinet Acrosonic, and it has an authentic sostenuto.

[rhapsody in orange]

Yea something I realised not too long ago, when I was opening the lid of my Schimmel upright and playing with the una corda pedal. The hammers actually shift forward and therefore hit the strings with less force as opposed to them moving slighly such that they would hit only one string. Is that supposed to be how it works? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong =)

[Ed Marlo]

That is how an upright piano works, yes.  Bit of an Una Corda simulation.  I know someone who has an upright with a Sustenuto pedal - they are rare though.

[rhapsody in orange]

Oh I see, so if that's the case there would be no change in the tone produced? Since 3 strings are still being hit, but this time probably less acceleration of the hammer therefore the sound tends to be softer? I've never figured out since I didn't really play with the una corda pedal on the concert grand when I had the chance to play on it =)

[bernhard]

On a grand piano:

right pedal - lifts the dampers, so the strings (all of them) are free to ressonate.

left pedal - moves the hammers to the right so that the hammer now hits only one (in some pianos 2) of the three strings for each key (bass keys have only one string, and extreme treble only two , though). Hence "una corda". It has the effect of thining the sound, not necessarily lowering the volume.

middle pedal  - sostenuto pedal. Press a key and before releasing it, press the middle pedal. It will raise the damper corresponding to that single key, which is allowed to vibrate freely - but not the other strings.

Upright piano:

Right pedal - just as above.

Left pedal - brings the hammers closer to the strings, so that the cannot strike the strings at full speed. Therefore it "muffles" the sound. This is not an una-corda pedal – as in a grand piano – and does not even tries to imitate the effect.I have never heard before of an upright piano with an una-corda pedal – that is a mechanism that shifts the hammers sideways so that only a single string is hit – which of course does not mean that they do not exist.

Middle pedal (when there is one) - Brings a piece of felt between the strings and the hammers, and is intended for practice without disturbing the neighbours. Seriously diminishes the volume. On the Yamaha Silent series, the middle pedal once engaged, connects the keyboard to a digital piano, so that it is completely silent, and you play with headphones. Disengage and the keyboard is again concected to the hammers and strings and you have a real piano.

This is not a sostenuto pedal – as in a grand piano – and does not even tries to imitate the effect. Its fuction is of a completely different sort (it puts the piano in “practice without disturbing the neighbours” mode). I had never heard before of an upright piano with a sostenuto pedal – that is a mechanism that allows a single string to vibrate unimpeded, until I read nav and puma’s posts above about the Baldwin.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[rhapsody in orange]

Wow Bernhard you give such constructive replies.. I'm impressed. Thanks!

[jono]

Thanks for all of your helping advices!   
But let me get this straight, if you strike for example three keys, and before releasing them you press down the sostenuto pedal, will all three of them continue to vibrate? And if you strike a tone AFTER pressing down the sostenuto pedal, will it or will it not continue to vibrate after releasing this key? ( I don't have the opportunity to experiment with a grand piano who has a sostenuto-pedal, at the moment...)
Thats all for this time, take care!
Jono

[rhapsody in orange]

The middle pedal, officially called the SOSTENUTO PEDAL, was patented in 1874 by the Steinway Corporation of America. The sostenuto pedal does only one thing when it is depressed: it will catch and hold any dampers that are already fully raised from the strings. The dampers are those things that lay across the strings and go up and down when you play a key. When the sostenuto pedal is properly used it will keep the dampers which have been raised, up until the sostenuto pedal has been released. Soundwise, what you get is one note or a bunch of notes that will be sustained for as long as the sostenuto pedal is engaged. What makes it so cool is that you can use the right pedal (damper pedal) as well as the left pedal (the una corde pedal) while you are also using the sostenuto pedal. The only trick is to not let the sostenuto pedal up until you really and truly want to release the sounds you have been sustaining.

To properly play the sostenuto pedal, the note or notes that you want to have the sostenuto pedal play must be played and held by the fingers until the sostenuto pedal is FULLY put down to the floor or depressed. The right pedal must not be depressed at the same moment the sostenuto pedal catches the notes to be held, because then ALL the dampers will be caught by the sostenuto pedal and all the notes will be held instead of the specific note or notes you want held. But once the sostenuto pedal has been put down, the pianist can go ahead and use the damper pedal as much as needed. The note or notes caught in the sostenuto pedal will continue to be held through any changes made by the right pedal. The sostenuto pedal has to be kept completely depressed when you are using it; even the smallest, tiniest, bit of a release will result in the catching of other unwanted tones.



Got that piece of information from a site.
I guess you're right for the first bit (about the vibration being kept when the sostenuto pedal is pressed). And after pressing down the sostenuto pedal, the notes played subsequently will not be sustained.

[Dikai]

simple rules in simple terms...
right pedal:  press the keys first before changing it, but finish changing the right pedal before you release the keys that you just pressed...  less pedal the better (usually, 20th century + impressionistic excluded, unless otherwise written)

middle pedal:  well, when you have a bass octave to hold, play the octave and press down with you left foot before you let go of those keys, then you can do everything else, and leave the bass notes there.  be careful tho, if you have the bass notes (to hold) and other notes (not to hold) at the same time, look out the timing, especially if those notes don't harmonically relate to each other, the result could be horrifying...

left pedal:  usually pressed only when indicated.  don't use this pedal simply to make things ppp...  because other than the volume, the tone changes completely, not just the volume.

[jono]

Thanks for the adcive! Now I know how the pedals work

But just to answer my comments about how songs can or can't be overplayed: If you've played the song yourself too much, then of course the song gets overplayed. But if you warn others to start working on some specific pieces (someone here did it in another subject, can't recall who...) the you are on the wrong track I think. For a beginner, it probably sounds wonderful to listen to pieces that other consider overplayed. Thats what I think. Take care!
Jono

[galonia]

I practice on an upright, so I don't have a sostenuto pedal, and my teacher's grand only has two pedals, so I never get to practise using the middle pedal.

However, I'm playing pieces where it would be appropriate to use the sostenuto pedal.

My question is, in a performance, how do I keep the sostenuto pedal down while using the other two pedals?  I only have two feet, which I believe is quite a common condition.

[heldig]

I think the easiest way to operate two pedals with one foot is to angle your foot inwards so that the big toe plays and holds the sostenuto pedal while the heel plays either the una corde or tre corde - depending on which foot you are using.

Regards
Elizabeth

[joann]

I had read in a Schaum newsletter on this subject that the middle pedal on an upright might also on some models be a bass damper pedal that operates the dampers only for the lowest 2.5 octaves of the keyboard. It lets the secondo to have partial independent control of the dampers, while the primo uses the main damper pedal.  I had also read that some models have the middle pedal as a practice pedal.  I had heard a little bit about half pedaling,but if anyone could clarify it somewhat I would be very interested.

[jpianoflorida]

My first upright piano had a middle sostenuto pedal also!   Many older pianos have one.    I have found that only newer pianos I have come in contact with(well, new as in the last 15 years) have the softening pedal which uses the felt.   Most all older pianos I have played in churches, etc have the middle sostenuto pedal.

[ramseytheii]

My first upright piano had a middle sostenuto pedal also!   Many older pianos have one.    I have found that only newer pianos I have come in contact with(well, new as in the last 15 years) have the softening pedal which uses the felt.   Most all older pianos I have played in churches, etc have the middle sostenuto pedal.

These days, Faziolis also make pianos with a fourth, super-soft pedal.  This pedal lowers the keybed slightly, so that the keys start from a lower position.

Walter Ramsey