'Physical Styles of the Great Pianists'

[theodopolis]

I find the best way to appreciate recorded music is in DVD format when you can watch the creation of the music as well as the quality of sound.
I therefore find the physical presence of the pianists a fascinating subject.
There are varieties between the extremes of physical presence:

-Face Immobile, small gestures: eg. Artur Rubinstein, Benno Moiseiwitsch.
-Fair amount of facial expression, physical movement and gesture. eg. Horowitz, Barenboim.
-Very physical movement and much facial expression. eg. Glenn Gould, Sviatoslav Richter.

I prefer the first of face immobile. I could watch Rubinstein for days on end. The pianist seems to be truly at one with the music with expression purely through the fingertips.

Does anyone else have an opinion on this aspect of concert pianism?

[bernhard]

Yes. I am with you all the way.

It is bad enough that certain pianists seem not to be able to control their grimacing/humming/moving about. It is even worse when they do so studiously and it is obvious they rehearsed it. But why? Why do the cameras have to focus on these ridiculous shots of the piano lid (showing the grimaces in the background), piano strings, and so on?

I commend Richter's decision in his later years to play in a dark stage, with a spot light only on the score, so that his movements and grimacing would be out of the way of the sound. When Montsangeon asked him: "What about the expressions in your face?" He answered in a most spiteful way: "My face? What has my face to do with anything?" Well done, Slava!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[jazzyprof]

It is bad enough that certain pianists seem not to be able to control their grimacing/humming/moving about.

By golly, for the first time ever I'm about to disagree with Bernhard!  Why should a pianist control their grimacing/humming/moving about?  After all, music has the power to move us.  It moves the emotions and makes you want to smile, laugh, cry.  It can make you happy and make you want to dance.  The rhythm can cause you to sway or tap your foot to the beat.  If you are at one with the music you are playing you feel these sensations.  Sure, you can train yourself to remain perfectly immobile and impassive as the music flows through you.  But isn't that unnatural?  Sometimes when I play certain pieces I am so moved that tears well up in my eyes and course down my face.  Should I train myself not to feel, just so a camera may not pick up an offending tear running down my face?  Jazz pianists have always felt free to let their bodies express the feelings induced by the music.  Most jazz pianists tap their feet as they play.  Many hum along (Oscar Peterson, Keith Jarrett, for example).  One extreme is the great Thelonious Monk who would actually get up and dance around the piano when so moved.  Why should we be so restrained when it comes to Western European Art Music, or so-called classical music?

[allchopin]

But isn't that unnatural?  Sometimes when I play certain pieces I am so moved that tears well up in my eyes and course down my face. 

Whoa, heh, isn't this unnatural..?

[claudio20]

Older generation pianists didn't move around much,nor did they make much useless gestures.It was said that both Busoni and Anton Rubinstein sat like a rock without any face expressions.So did Rachmaninoff and Hofmann.
Nobody know how Liszt look when he plays,but evidently all his pupils had very strict,economic body movements as well as face expression,people like Rosenthal,D'albert,Siloti,Lamond and so on.Also the 2nd generation of Liszt pupils were like this:Backhaus,Fischer and Arrau(he was a interesting one,when he was young he moved a lot,but once he discovered what he was doing,everything become economic).Other German artists from the same time took more or less the same attitute:Kempff(who in fact had the same teacher as Arthur Rubinstein),Gieseking,Schnabel.
French pianists like Casadesus,Dimer,Cortot,Long and so on had very little use of arm movements though they were very free while they were playing.Their fingers did all the work,therefore there was no need of big gestures.

[pianonut]

all i know is that my dad used to tell me to "shut your mouth or you'll catch flys" every time he walked by me practicing.  sometime after this, another teacher videotaped all of us (his students) and mine was sort of fast forwarded.  i leaned forward and back so much it looked like i was trying to get exercise while playing the piano.  i always have remembered these two things, and try to at least have my mouth closed (and some sort of good expression on it) and not move too much.  minium movement seems to bring you into the piano and help to follow the piece more precisely, yet there do seem to be some pianists that can "get away" with moving more and it doesn't seem to matter.  have you seen murray perhia play?  he's kind of funny, to me, but he plays so superbly that you don't care what he does.  he did what my dad told me not to (relaxes so much his mouth is open a lot of the time).  i suppose that his concentration level is so deep, and the music so great, that no one really cares.

[jazzyprof]

Whoa, heh, isn't this unnatural..?

Eh, what is unnatural?

[pianonut]

for men, not taking at least one minute to wipe the sweat from their brow in between movements.  for women, to take time (playing slowly) so as to produce sweat (i have never experienced this and often wonder about it).

[Pianoquake]

Well, if it's about the music (and it is), then I don't care if the pianist is making faces, eating a sandwich, or wearing pink socks.

And if the llarger public is attracted by exaggerated gestures - I think it's good; we could use more listeners and concert goers (provided They don't eat a sandwich or cough).

In short - I don't care whart the pianist is doing or what he or she looks like. I am too busy listening to the music. If you forced an answer from me  it would be the way Lupu/Brahms sit/sat on a simple chair with their hands straight.

[Ed Marlo]

The facial expression that always cracks me up is Cziffra's, after a performance of Grand Galop Chromatique (Liszt) - on The Art of Piano DVD.  The contrast between his deep concentration and the final skyward look of smugness is just, well, hilarious.  God bless that man.

[theodopolis]

It's interesting you mention that excerpt of Cziffra from The Art of the Piano.

The amusing little, smug expression was cut in from another performance in the same recording session. It was just after he had finished Liszt's Gnomenreigen.

The actual expression after completing Grand Galop Chromatique was one of complete exhaustion:- The view is of his whole profile; He drops his hands by his sides, looks up at the ceiling and breathes a sigh of relief.

I suppose the editors thought the first showed more stamina, though you can hardly blame him for a bit of fatigue after that particular Liszt work.

Thanks
Theodopolis

[thracozaag]

The facial expression that always cracks me up is Cziffra's, after a performance of Grand Galop Chromatique (Liszt) - on The Art of Piano DVD.  The contrast between his deep concentration and the final skyward look of smugness is just, well, hilarious.  God bless that man.

  Actually the look he shoots the audience in a video from Tokyo of the GGC is even more classic.

koji (STSD)

[OiledUpFatMan]

The whole idea of criticizing a pianist because of their physical movements is ridiculous. People are different, as are their playing styles which are completely personal and unique. The whole notion of controling a physical movment is just as silly because it might be intrinsic to a pianist's technique. Do you think Gould would have played as well if he didn't conduct himself and hum along with the music or if Richter would have been as great if he sat upon the bench like a statue? Taking this into account it is obviously far too subjective for anyone to say whether or not particular playing eccentricities are fake or authentic.

Ultimately it is the music that matters and not what the pianist looks like when he creates it.

[bernhard]

By golly, for the first time ever I'm about to disagree with Bernhard! 

It is ok to disagree with me.

Why should a pianist control their grimacing/humming/moving about?  After all, music has the power to move us.  It moves the emotions and makes you want to smile, laugh, cry.  It can make you happy and make you want to dance.  The rhythm can cause you to sway or tap your foot to the beat.  If you are at one with the music you are playing you feel these sensations. 

At home, perhaps. But in a public performance, a pianist histrionics makes it impossible for me to be moved by the music. And as a member of the public if I started clapping hands and stomping my foot every time I got over-excited I would come to the attention of securtity who would show me the way out, since my histrionics would be interfering  with other people's enjoyment of the music.

Sure, this sort of body discontrol has its appeal to certain people. But then that is why rock concerts exhist. Go to one of them and dance away (who cares about the noise? sorry , I mean music?)

 

Sure, you can train yourself to remain perfectly immobile and impassive as the music flows through you.  But isn't that unnatural?  Sometimes when I play certain pieces I am so moved that tears well up in my eyes and course down my face.  Should I train myself not to feel, just so a camera may not pick up an offending tear running down my face? 

But why stop at the tears? why not sob uncontrollably and cry "mummy, mummy!", and throw yourself in the floor Surely you will agree with me that such behaviour would not be conducive to music appreciation by the audience (and I repeat again, in the privacy of one's own home anything goes).

However it is worse than that. Most of the absurd movements of pianists are not natural at all. They are carefully rehearsed and many times the pianist is coached on them. Brendel is on record saying that the first time he saw himself on video he was shocked at his natural grimacing, because he felt it was out of context with the music. So instead of stop grimacing, he started practising with a mirror so that he could match the grimaces to the feeling of the music. Unnatural enough for you? Then take Helene Grimaud. I have a video of her playing Rach 2, where her movements are so obviously rehearsed and so hamly delivered that it is painful to watch. By the time you get over it you realise that you have not heard a single note she played. (She sways, she looks up dreamly, she shakes, and it is all fake).

Then another day a friend showed me a video of some opera-singer (I do not know his name - a tall, shaven-head, glass wearing afro-American with a wonderful voice). The video was sort of cross over, and the singer was singing some drivel  by Enrique Iglesias  . The problem was, for all his good singing, he had been clearly coached to smile and make "expressive" hand movements at certain spots in the music. It was completely ridiculous.

If one cannot stop moving and humming, then do what Richter did: Play in the dark.

Jazz pianists have always felt free to let their bodies express the feelings induced by the music.  Most jazz pianists tap their feet as they play.  Many hum along (Oscar Peterson, Keith Jarrett, for example).  One extreme is the great Thelonious Monk who would actually get up and dance around the piano when so moved. 

Well, jazz is not European Art Music. Somethings are appropriate in one genre and inappropriate in others. To each its own.

And there is something else too. The hidden statement here is : "Why can't classical music be more like jazz or pop music?" So consider this: "Why can't chess be more like tic-tac-toe? So much simpler, so much more fun, none of that stuffy seriousness of chess players!".

Why should we be so restrained when it comes to Western European Art Music, or so-called classical music?

 Ultimately because the performer's histrionics distract from the music and throw attention on the performer.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[shoenberg3]

It is ok to disagree with me.



At home, perhaps. But in a public performance, a pianist histrionics makes it impossible for me to be moved by the music. And as a member of the public if I started clapping hands and stomping my foot every time I got over-excited I would come to the attention of securtity who would show me the way out, since my histrionics would be interfering with other people's enjoyment of the music.

Sure, this sort of body discontrol has its appeal to certain people. But then that is why rock concerts exhist. Go to one of them and dance away (who cares about the noise? sorry , I mean music?)

 

But why stop at the tears? why not sob uncontrollably and cry "mummy, mummy!", and throw yourself in the floor Surely you will agree with me that such behaviour would not be conducive to music appreciation by the audience (and I repeat again, in the privacy of one's own home anything goes).

However it is worse than that. Most of the absurd movements of pianists are not natural at all. They are carefully rehearsed and many times the pianist is coached on them. Brendel is on record saying that the first time he saw himself on video he was shocked at his natural grimacing, because he felt it was out of context with the music. So instead of stop grimacing, he started practising with a mirror so that he could match the grimaces to the feeling of the music. Unnatural enough for you? Then take Helene Grimaud. I have a video of her playing Rach 2, where her movements are so obviously rehearsed and so hamly delivered that it is painful to watch. By the time you get over it you realise that you have not heard a single note she played. (She sways, she looks up dreamly, she shakes, and it is all fake).

Then another day a friend showed me a video of some opera-singer (I do not know his name - a tall, shaven-head, glass wearing afro-American with a wonderful voice). The video was sort of cross over, and the singer was singing some drivel by Enrique Iglesias . The problem was, for all his good singing, he had been clearly coached to smile and make "expressive" hand movements at certain spots in the music. It was completely ridiculous.

If one cannot stop moving and humming, then do what Richter did: Play in the dark.



Well, jazz is not European Art Music. Somethings are appropriate in one genre and inappropriate in others. To each its own.

And there is something else too. The hidden statement here is : "Why can't classical music be more like jazz or pop music?" So consider this: "Why can't chess be more like tic-tac-toe? So much simpler, so much more fun, none of that stuffy seriousness of chess players!".



 Ultimately because the performer's histrionics distract from the music and throw attention on the performer.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

irrefutable

[ted]

As I do not attend concerts physical gestures of players are irrelevant to me. It is an instructive thing to make a video of yourself though. My son insisted on trying out his camera on me playing a Chopin study. I thought it would be a ghastly spectacle because I had imagined I was doing all sorts of horrible things, always having played privately over the years without training. However, I didn't do anything - sat up straight and poker faced with no extraneous movements at all - hands and action looked pretty good. I was struck by the stark contrast between the emotional sound coming out and the impassive, ursine figure. So that's how I look ! It's an experiment well worth trying no matter what the result . You see yourself as others see you.

[wintervind]

Uneeded movements at the piano are ridiculous at best and should be avoided, and bred out of performance altogether. There is absolutely nothing worse than watching someone perform obviously choreographed facial and hand and swaying motions. But what is worse is when so called professionals seem to condone it by their own performances.

I reciently attended a piano recital by a professor from conservatory a conservatory His performace contained all of the above, but included episodes where he would storm off stage. (i was convinced at the time that he did this so he could splash himself down with water in order to look "sweaty") Not any of these choreographed movements could take away from the fact that his playing was void (in my opinion) of any real musicallity.
Ok ill give this guy one compliment- he had fast fingers

[Dikai]

i think there is a bit of the politics going on in here tho...
when you watch the international-e piano competition videos, or any competitions that you've entered, the music playing aside, judges seem to favor those with much facial expressions and body movement (excess body movement, more than that's physically required to perform the same piece of music).  they're "considered" more passionate even tho the music would sound exactly the same...

body movement, naturally, some big movements are required to physically play the music, facial expression, as long as it's not just for showing the audience, it's acceptable... some performance artists seem to think that people love to observe their faces more than enjoying the music itself...

some of the more rigid pianists, they amaze me as well, with minimal facial expression, minimal body movement, they can still bring such power and passion into the music...  jog dropped....

[theodopolis]

I don't mean any disrespect, but does anyone find Rudolf Serkin's style rather amusing?


On another note, I don't think the really great motionless pianists should be described as 'Rigid'.
 Arrau made very clear his belief that any rigidity in the joints stems the flow of artistry from the mind to the fingers.
When watching Rubinstein's hands, they are very loose and fluid, particularly when playing octaves. He avoids the classic instinct to form the hand into an octave span and 'freezing' it before moving with the wrist.

[wintervind]

I should emphasis the phrase from my last post

obviously choreographed facial and hand and swaying motions