Silent piano. HELP! yamaha u1u3 kawai k50 schimmel T130 122

[pnavas]

Hello Everybody!

I am about to buy a brand new silent piano. Never studied music, I have learnt on my own, though I must have reached some kind of level and played pieces of certain difficulty like fantasia impromptu, 3rd movement od rachmaninov 2& piano concert, etc..

I have no friends or relatives that know about music in depht, so I am alone in this story of buying a piano. I have learnt and played always on a yamaha clavinova clp 350. Four years ago I quit playing since I hated to play in the clavinova and did not want to buy an acoustic, since I live in an appartment and don't want to disturb the neighbours too much. Now I have known about the silent pianos, I want to buy a brand new one.

I have seen the following silent pianos under the following prices:

yamaha u3 €9990
yamaha u1 €8200
kawai K50 €7200
Schimmel T 130 €14300
Schimmel 122 I €12200

I have a living room of only 24 sq meters to place the piano in. It will be located in the living room at a wall that is between my kitchen and living room.

Between the 2 yamahas, the sound I like most was the one of the u3, the same between the 2 schimmels, T 130 was more impressive than 122. I am going to test the kawai soon since the one in the shop was not in tune, but the silent mode did not impress me too much besides the electronic control panel is located on the board itself, which I don't like.

Perhaps the yamaha furniture is the one I like most, since it is elegant and modern at a time. Yamaha and Kawai have this easy closing board cover device. Schimmels do not have this feature.

For me it is important the silent device, since I am going to play a lot with it. Also a good acoustic sound quality is very important for when I play during the day.

Questions:

-is a 133 piano going to be too loud for my tiny appartment and going to be even disturbing for me and neighbours? should I go for the 121 versions and sacrifice sound quality ? my first opinion is that if I am going to spend a lot of money I should go for the biggers

-I like the sound of the yamahas, but I find it a bit 'metallic'. Does this metallic impression grow with the time, or rather the opposite ?

-The sound of the Schimmel is perhaps the one I like most and find closer to the classical grand pianos but does it worth the extra pay ?

-In terms of residual value, which would be the best option ?

As you can see I am in a mess and don't try to follow very much the advices of the dealers, since they have their own interests. One of them has suggested me to buy the smallest piano because of my small appartment and then move into a grand when I buy a bigger house, in that case they will re buy me the upright I am buying now.

Please, some caritative soul give me some expert advice.

Thanks in advance. This seems to be a very useful site.

Pedro

[richard w]

-is a 133 piano going to be too loud for my tiny appartment and going to be even disturbing for me and neighbours? should I go for the 121 versions and sacrifice sound quality ? my first opinion is that if I am going to spend a lot of money I should go for the biggers

I've tried all these pianos in their normal guise but never as silent pianos, so I can't reflect on this aspect of your choice, only on the quality of these instruments as standard pianos.

In your situation, if I had decided on Yamaha I would go for the U3. U1 and U2 are not such expressive instruments. It will of course be louder, but see the thread entitled Reverb/Reflections in piano room, where I will give an answer to the question you ask there. But consider that if your neighbours can her your U3 then they will hear your U1 too. If you are not sure, your supplier may be able to offer you a rental contract with the option to buy if you are happy, giving you the option to change your mind if it doesn't work out.

-I like the sound of the Yamahas, but I find it a bit 'metallic'. Does this metallic impression grow with the time, or rather the opposite ?

You are quite right. Yamaha does not offer the refinement in tone that many German pianos have. If you proceed with a purchase your supplier should be happy to voice the piano 'down' a bit if you wish, but this kind of work really needs to be done by someone who knows what they are doing. Given that as you use your instrument, the hammers will slowly compact it is likely that the piano will become brighter in tone with time. Again, a good technician should be able to voice the hammers to correct this, and as long as you do not use excessive force on your piano as a regular thing, this shouldn't become a concern for at least about 10 years. Avoiding excessive force is an excellent idea all round, as it will improve your tone, help protect you from injury, reduce wear on your piano and keep your neighbours happy, all at once!

-The sound of the Schimmel is perhaps the one I like most and find closer to the classical grand pianos but does it worth the extra pay ?

I looked at both the 122 and the 130 when I was choosing my piano. I was after a full size upright, but I considered the 122 seriously. In my opinion it is a better piano than the U3, both from the point of view of the tone and the action, which I believe is by Renner. Strangely, I found it difficult to discern a massive jump in quality from the 122 to the 130, and this was a point with which the salesman concurred. His words, more or less exactly were 'If you can't tell the difference go for the 122.' I presume he would have made more money if I went for the 130, so I presumably felt there was not much cost benefit of upgrading. However, you should reflect on your own experiences, and if you find the 130 much better then use that to inform your judgement. If you are seriously considering a Schimmel, then I'd advise you to look at other German pianos too, although it may be harder to get one with a factory-fit 'silent' option.

Anyway, is the Schimmel worth the extra money? That is a value judgement you will have to make for yourself, but for me, yes. As one goes up in price one starts to get diminishing returns in terms of quality improvements, but to get the quality improvements you need to pay.

-In terms of residual value, which would be the best option ?

To be honest, I don't sell a lot of pianos - none, in fact - so I can't really advise. The best thing to do would be to check out the second hand market locally.

As you can see I am in a mess and don't try to follow very much the advices of the dealers, since they have their own interests. One of them has suggested me to buy the smallest piano because of my small appartment and then move into a grand when I buy a bigger house, in that case they will re buy me the upright I am buying now.

What your dealer has suggested is certainly an option, and upgrading to a grand at some stage is a nice idea. Therefore, it would seem logical to buy an instrument now which would loose you the least money over the next few years. Therefore, one other option might be to look for a used piano, but it may be hard to find one with a 'silent' option. I think one can fit a 'silent' mechanism on any upright, or even a grand, but the result may be less satisfactory than a factory-fit option. To be honest I know nothing of this aspect of pianos. Ultimately, you have to decide what is more important to you, and make a decision on that basis. Only you can decide.

I hope that is of some help.



Richard.

[pnavas]

Thanks Richard for your comments in both topics.

Today I have been again in another shop and have tested the u3 again, which I love.
This dealer also sells schimmel, and , he has told me he had 40 years selling experience and that for him it would be better to sell me the schimmel T130 because his turnover would be higher, but that he recommends me the u3 as the most reliable piano of the moment, being better in the mechanics than the schimmel T 130 despite the renner mechanics, which are not supposed to be the best of renner, and more important, u3 is much more reliable.

On the other hand, I have explained him my concerns about the noise and after explaining him a picture of the situation, he has told me no doubt about the u3 choice, since having no neighbours underneath, were the sound is supposed to cause it highest effect, and due to the fact that the wall belongs both sides to my appartment, it won't be any problem with the loudness.

This seems to me like the most reasonable argumentation of all I've heard before from dealers, and after having tested both u1 u3 side by side, for me there is no doubt now: the u3 sounds by far better.

An important fact that makes me feel confident about this dealer is that he has no stock of the u3 silent at the moment, wherefore there is in principle for him no interest in releasing quickly his current stock of u3 silent.

I will go again to the other shop to test both schimmels 122 & 130, then another round on the u3 before final decision.

Thanks again

Pedro

[quasimodo]

Tha Yamaha uprights acoustic sound is said to be poor... But in silent systems Yamaha is the most reliable.
A U3 with silent is probably the best compromise and the most economic.

[pianowelsh]

who says the U3 sound is poor? Ive played tons of VERY VERY expensive grand pianos and a U3 in top condition can hold its own with many a small grand in quality and quantity of sound.  I also live in a flat and practice at irregular hours so a silent was necessary I am the proud owner of a U3S and but for a slight quibble over the depth of pedal which i am going to have a technition fix - im very happy with it.