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Making a video recording (Read 1936 times)

Offline jamesaknight

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Making a video recording
« on: January 20, 2020, 06:34:36 PM »
Anyone have any advice regarding a way to make a decent quality video recording of a home piano performance ?

Sound quality is obviously key - so I'm not sure whether buying a decent camcorder is the answer - or whether buying separate microphones and then adding to soundtrack the video would be better?

I'm completely clueless on this (only attempts so far have been using an iphone, where obv sound quality is relatively poor) - so any advice would be welcomed.

Offline Bob

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #1 on: January 20, 2020, 11:53:12 PM »
Also curious.  I may have asked in the past.  I think someone said to keep video and audio separate since video camera microphones weren't up to par for what you want for audio.  You have to do a clap to line up the video and audio then.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #2 on: January 21, 2020, 12:21:42 AM »
As Bob said - clap line to sync up the Video and Audio.

Also, any smart device these days has a good camera on it for the Video... you will however need to get a good Audio recorder. I personally used a H2 for the basic, however have upgraded to a H5 which is SO much better.

Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #3 on: February 17, 2020, 11:01:45 PM »
Keep the audio and video separate.  It is more work in post production, as you have to join the two, but results in a better overall video.  The optimal place for microphones and the optimal place for a camera is usually not in the same location.  Using a camera's built in mics also means the mics are much more likely to pick up handling noise from the camera itself.

A good place to start for audio is a portable recorder.  Some examples: Zoom H4n, Roland R-05, TASCAM DR-100mkII, and the list goes on...

For better audio, a dedicated pair of mics plus an audio interface.  Some portable recorders can act like an interface, the Zoom H4n for example, so it is something to consider if you want to start with a portable recorder and move on to dedicated mics in the future.  Condenser mics are commonly used in piano recording.

For starters: AT2020, Rode M5

A bit more: Oktava MK-012, Rode NT5, Rode NT55

A lot more: Sennheiser MKH-8020, Neumann KM184

Just like choosing pianos, I suggest it is beneficial to listen to mics that are outside of your budget range, just to have a perspective of how far your money is going.  Sure there is a difference between a $100 mic and a $500 mic, spending a bit more in this price range will often be worth it for a serious pianist that just wants to record at home.  There is also a difference between a $500 mic and a $1000 mic, but is it as big a difference as you would expect?  A little recording technique goes a long way, and one can make a budget mic sound more "expensive" than the price tag could indicate.
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #4 on: February 17, 2020, 11:25:09 PM »
Some example recordings.  Keep in mind mic positioning, the preamp and recording technique can change the sound a lot, so don't take these as the definitive answer of how these mics perform. 

AT2021 and AT2020


Rode M5 in ORTF


Rode NT5 with the optional NT45-o omni capsule.
I really like what the NT45-o adds to the NT5.


Oktava MK 012-01


Shure KSM137, close miced inside lid


Senheiser MKH20,  spaced omni at 20"


Neumann KM 184


Neumann KM184 and AKG C414B-XLS
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #5 on: February 17, 2020, 11:42:41 PM »
Some mic comparison videos:

Zoom H6, Zoom H2n, Oktava MK 012-0
Good demonstration of how a portable recorder compares with dedicated mics.


sE Electronics sE8, Rode NT5, Oktava MK012, Studio Projects C4 MKII


Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline pencilart3

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #6 on: February 18, 2020, 02:28:32 AM »
All the recordings on my youtube were made with the tascam Dr-07mkii. About $80, I can't recommend it enough.

Hmu for advice about where to put the mic/how to film and combine it with the audio.

examples below...

You might have seen one of my videos without knowing it was that nut from the forum
youtube.com/noahjohnson1810

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #7 on: February 18, 2020, 01:30:04 PM »
Thanks, quantum, for the detailed survey. I'll be giving the samples a listen later. I have Rode NT5s and am pretty happy with them, eg here (live recording, also a Steinway D, so a good combination!)


Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #8 on: February 19, 2020, 06:23:53 AM »
pencilart3 and ronde, thanks for adding your samples to this thread. 

The tascam Dr-07mkii sounds like good value for its cost. 

For a long time I was searching for classical piano recordings with the NT5, as a lot of the online reviews focused on guitars playing pop music or drum overheads.  There are mentions in recording forums about shared characteristics of the NT5 with mics that cost two to four times as much. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #9 on: February 19, 2020, 08:27:34 AM »
Stereo Microphone Techniques.

A majority of the recording scenarios in capturing piano, be it solo, with small ensemble, or large ensemble will have a basis in stereo microphone techniques.  This is relevant to those considering portable recorders as they come with mics already set in a pattern, so when you  choose a portable recorder consider the stereo pattern as well.  As a basic starter setup, you will have either: a portable recorder with preset stereo pattern(s), or a pair of microphones which you place into a stereo pattern. 

When using the patterns below, position according to the capsules, not the microphone housing.

AB, spaced pair.
Microphone capsules kept parallel to each other and spaced.  Good for picking up the room, and hearing the space.  If you are in a good acoustic and want to capture that in the recording, it is a consideration.   You could make a very wide stereo image, if you so desire, though it may sound unnatural.  Using omni mics here allows one to take advantage of their low-end frequency response.  Issues with phase cancellation in mono.

XY, coincident pair.
Directional microphone capsules placed close to one another, typically one above the other, between 90 to 135 degrees relative to each other.  Good directional image, less defined sense of space.  Will not sound as wide as compared to AB spaced pair.  Directional microphones loose low-end frequency response at longer distances.  There are no issues with phase cancellation and excellent mono compatibility.


Near coincident pairs.
They combine characteristics of AB and XY spacing.

ORTF, near coincident.
Two directional microphones, capsules 17 cm  apart, angled at 110 degrees.  Wider than XY

DIN, near coincident.
Two directional microphones, capsules 20 cm apart, angled at 90 degrees.

NOS, near coincident.
Two directional microphones, capsules 30 cm apart, angled at 90 degrees.


Blumlein, coincident pair.
Position like XY, but uses microphones with bi-directional (figure 8 ) pattern.  The directional image of XY with the sense of hearing the room behind the mics.  No issues with phase cancellation and excellent mono compatibility.

Mid-side.
One small diaphragm condenser, cardioid or omni, plus one large diaphragm condenser bi-directional (figure 8 ).  Figure 8 mic is placed at a 90 degree angle to the instrument to capture the side.  The other mic is placed above or below the figure 8 and pointed directly at the instrument, the mid. The relative difference in amplitude of the mid and side determines the stereo width.  The differentiating feature of mid-side is the ability to adjust the stereo width after recording. 

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #10 on: February 19, 2020, 09:24:16 AM »
Examples of stereo techniques:

AB, XY, ORTF, and MS.  Using Neumann KM 184 and Rode NT 2000


XY, AB cardioid, AB omni, ORTF, MS, Blumlein.  Using Sontronics STC-1 and  Behringer B-2 Pro.  Large room acoustic.


ORTF, XY, Blumlein, Binaural.  Schoeps and B9audio mics.  Long music excerpts.



Example of recording an ensemble.  Main mics use stereo pair, spot mics for instrument sections.

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline pencilart3

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #11 on: February 19, 2020, 05:42:28 PM »
Great work man that is very helpful and interesting @quantum
You might have seen one of my videos without knowing it was that nut from the forum
youtube.com/noahjohnson1810

Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #12 on: February 21, 2020, 01:50:13 PM »
Thanks. These are just things I've picked up over the years of recording.  I've been meaning to compile the info into a format that answers some of the recording questions that pop up here every so often. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #13 on: February 21, 2020, 01:56:24 PM »
Multiple sets of mics, large empty hall, Steinway D.
Oktava MK-012 omni pair, MK-12 cardioid pair, MK-12 with MK101 large diaphragm capsule.  Combining AB, ORTF and room mic.
Music starts at 10:35. 

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #14 on: February 28, 2020, 01:30:21 PM »
This may be the single most information dense and most useful thread on the entire forum in many years.


thanks
Tim

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #15 on: March 03, 2020, 02:34:37 PM »
For reference, this is representative of the mic positions as used in the recording I posted above. I believe this is a photo of the mic position in this live recording (same venue and piano, same Rode NT5 mics).





Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #16 on: December 04, 2020, 05:46:11 AM »
This video discusses recording classical piano in small rooms or studios.  A lot of the techniques mentioned would be helpful for home recordings. 


Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #17 on: December 18, 2020, 02:56:20 PM »
Comparing a selection of small diaphragm, large diaphragm and ribbon mics in a home studio setting. 

Large Diaphragm:
AKG C214
sE 4400a
Sontronics Orpheus

Small Diaphragm:
AKG C451B
sE 8
Sontronics STC-1S

Ribbon:
sE Voodooo VR2


Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #18 on: December 27, 2020, 04:12:47 AM »
Steinway D in a hall.
Comparing a variety of mono and stereo mic positions

Microphone patterns and types: omni, cardioid, small diaphragm, large diaphragm
Stereo techniques: XY, AB, ORTF




Upright piano in a small room.
Comparing a variety of mono and stereo mic positions, including behind piano.

Stereo techniques: XY, AB, ORTF, random



Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #19 on: December 27, 2020, 07:01:43 AM »
This is a good survey of stereo microphone techniques, and the situations where they could be used. 


Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #20 on: January 16, 2021, 09:56:24 AM »
Recording Classical Piano, Part 2


Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #21 on: January 18, 2021, 03:19:43 PM »
Sound recording and sound reinforcement are two different worlds. What works for one is not going to be best for another.

Stop me if I've told this story before. 

Some years ago I attended a large church conference in a huge ballroom.  It was a nice venue and everything associated was done to a high professional standard.

But when the pianist played, it sound like a cheesy low quality digital.  The player was clearly highly skilled but the sound was awful.  This was a surprise in light of how well everything else was done. 

So at break I went up to see what the poor guy was stuck playing.  I was thinking low end Casio, spring loaded, maybe into some laptop speakers. 

Nope, full size Steinway grand, in perfect tune.  Mike sitting over the strings connected to the room audio system. 
Tim

Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #22 on: January 20, 2021, 09:03:46 AM »
Sound recording and sound reinforcement are two different worlds. What works for one is not going to be best for another.

Very true.  To that I would add, live concert recording and studio recording also have differences in approach.


Stop me if I've told this story before. 

Some years ago I attended a large church conference in a huge ballroom.  It was a nice venue and everything associated was done to a high professional standard.

But when the pianist played, it sound like a cheesy low quality digital.  The player was clearly highly skilled but the sound was awful.  This was a surprise in light of how well everything else was done. 

So at break I went up to see what the poor guy was stuck playing.  I was thinking low end Casio, spring loaded, maybe into some laptop speakers. 

Nope, full size Steinway grand, in perfect tune.  Mike sitting over the strings connected to the room audio system. 

Have experienced similar as well. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #23 on: February 11, 2021, 04:10:12 PM »
A series of videos on recording classical music at home.  A lot of the practical considerations about working at home and making a good sound are discussed.

Microphone Types


Acoustics


Mixing Classical Music


Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #24 on: February 22, 2021, 11:27:04 PM »
Yamaha C6x

Comparing the following microphones:
Shure KSM 141
AKG C451B
Neumann KM 184
DPA 2011c

Music starts at 3:03


Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline flanker27

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #25 on: February 28, 2021, 03:37:37 PM »
I've been using a Roland R-05 recorder ever since I've started playing on an actual piano, and it does the job just fine. Sure, if you want a concert/movie soundtrack-level quality of recording, you'll have to go for something more expensive, but as a casual player, it's right up my alley.

Offline paulvanbladel

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Re: Making a video recording
«Reply #26 on: March 04, 2021, 06:56:09 AM »
Indeed separate video en audio. I use e-piano in combination with pianoteq.com software. The software can export high quality .wav.
This is the result