Can I learn "La campanella" within 6 month or a year?

[attempt3]

Hi, I'm completely new to the piano. I have played the piano for about 1 month. Is it possible for me to learn La campanella within a year?

[lostinidlewonder]

I'd say it is not possible and there is a high chance that it may never be possible. At the same time yes it could be possible and you have a very rare talent however the odds are heavily stacked against this.

I would think that those who can achieve it as beginners would not ask if it was possible, I would think these people are autodidactic and require no input from others.

[attempt3]

Today is the third day of me playing La campanella and i can say that its really difficult however its not impossible to achieve. After rigorous of hours and hours of repeating the same movement I can say i have improved a little? However, i have only played about part one of the song and I know later on is going to be impossible but it is not impossible to achieve.

[lostinidlewonder]

Today is the third day of me playing La campanella and i can say that its really difficult however its not impossible to achieve.

It might not be impossible but it may take a huge amount of time to achieve, instead you could focus your efforts better elsewhere and make much more efficient progress.

After rigorous of hours and hours of repeating the same movement I can say i have improved a little?

That seems to me to be a horrible way to practice the piano, mind numbing and frustrating.

[attempt3]

Well you are correct i have been bored and frustrated playing the same thing over and over again.  However i can play somewhat fluently. I will record my progress at one point when I'm satisfied with my accuracy and speed.

[dogperson]

Why? You will spend an enormous amount of time learning to SOMEWHAT play this and it will not have the musicality of someone who developed the skills to play this over time. There is an enormous amount of less technically challenging music... and after you learn it, you will have a result of which you can be proud.

I guess I don’t expect I will change your mind But I hope you will think about it

[ranjit]

If you're attempting to learn advanced repertoire, your focus shouldn't really be on speed and accuracy, especially at the beginning. If you can afford it and can find one, getting a good teacher would help. However, assuming you do not wish to, and really want to embark on this ridiculously difficult challenge -- here's my advice as someone who has been self-teaching piano for a few years. This is roughly what I did, and while I have been reasonably successful, I am nowhere close to playing La Campanella. I will try and roughly lay out a plan. Since there's precious little information out there about how to self-teach piano "properly", I think other people might also find this interesting. I've seldom seen good resources on how to self-teach piano elsewhere on the internet. It would be great if the more experienced posters here could come up with suggestions.

Focus on getting the movements right. This is especially true if you're tackling something difficult: poor hand movements can cause injury, especially when attempting advanced pieces. As a rule of thumb, if you're planning to learn anything beyond ~grade 5 material, technique should really be your main priority. If done right, playing the piano should feel really effortless. It is possible to play demanding repertoire for several hours straight, and not feel any sense of tiredness at all. I know it because I've experienced it firsthand. If you're getting any muscle pain or joint aches etc., you're doing it wrong. Period. Figure out how to fix it.

On how to acquire "technique": There are several things to be noted here.
- You should increasingly learn to notice tension developing in any part of the body. Try and be aware of anatomy as well -- fingers DO NOT have muscles, the muscles that power movements of the fingers are in the palms and forearms. Body weight and strength from the forearm, back, shoulders, etc. is transferred via the fingers, and the fingers just act kind of like the 'medium' to transfer the energy: they are not supposed to take a beating. You should feel no strain on the fingers even after playing difficult passages for hours straight. The wrist and forearm should typically be kept level with the keys. Look up videos on piano posture on Youtube.

- Read up whatever you can on Pianostreet about technique (bernhard's posts are quite good). Also watch all the videos on Youtube about technique you can find (look up pianocareer, Graham Fitch, cedarvillemusic and Josh Wright). Observe videos of pianists with good technique, and see how their hand position looks (arching fingers, etc.) and how they are transferring weight. Try and imitate that. It's naturally tricky to communicate piano technique without a teacher, and in my experience, this is about the best you can do using online resources.

- 90% of piano teaching resources available online are bs, especially if your aim is to play classical piano properly. Be wary of online resources -- be intensely skeptical of anything you read of watch online. Virtually none of the online "self-teaching piano courses" I've seen (and I've searched far and wide) will get you beyond a ~grade 5 level. They're mostly designed for people who want a comfortable, slow learning pace, and want to play their favorite songs, which are typically quite easy. Also, they usually don't focus much on technique at all. They assume you'll get away with poor technique since you won't be needing great technique anyway to play easy pieces. However, if you're attempting to play La Campanella in a year, you're very much drinking from the fire hose. It's like starting from zero to finishing a degree in six months. I would still say it may be possible, but realize what you're up against, and that the way you approach it should reflect that reality.

* Note: What I'm suggesting isn't to do a bunch of technical exercises (in fact, I'd advise not doing them without a teacher, since it's not the sheer repetition of technical exercises which improves technique, but rather the critical eye of a teacher who can keep making corrections as you gain muscle memory, so that you converge to the proper technique eventually). Rather, it's to seriously think about how to minimize tension, to be constantly aware of everything you're doing, to practice hands separate and keep trying new ways to move on the piano, and to read, watch, and critically analyze all the material you can come across online or in books, until you figure out what works best for you.

---------------------
I would suggest looking at the piece you're learning (here, La Campanella), and figuring out the underlying techniques involved. Observe patterns and "chunk" the music as much as possible. For example, La Campanella starts with Eb octaves. Then, you have a descending melodic figure along with leaps in the right hand, and rolled tenths in your left hand. Now, figure out how to play these properly.

Start from the assumption that there exists a way to play it which does not involve any tension. You will probably feel tense trying to play the right hand at the beginning, most probably because you will be stretching the right hand to play the high Eb note. How do you avoid that? Experiment, and look up videos of people playing (slow them down if you have to). See how they move the hand in an "arc", how they don't stretch the hand, but reach the upper note in this continuous motion, and then practice that motion. If you aren't able to do it initially, don't revert back to inefficient movements (it's kind of like how people doing a particular exercise in a gym shouldn't resort to poor form even if it allows them to get in a few extra repetitions). After a period of (hopefully) weeks or months, the movement will become second nature. Figure out all the movements/techniques like these you need to learn in order to eventually be able to play the piece (major scales, chromatic scales, arpeggios, chords, etc.). Slowly begin to coordinate all of it.

If you don't understand some of these terms, look them up. I'd advise going through all the pages on musictheory.net and understand them properly.

The point is to try and learn as assiduously as you would with a good teacher, on your own. I would think it's probably not impossible to self-teach up to that level. But realize that the way to get there isn't about remembering the notes, it's about understanding the deeper underlying concepts in fingering, technique, coordination, musicality, etc. I personally strongly believe in self-teaching in general, and wanted to put this out there. I wish you luck.

[dankdyl]

I honestly believe trying to play La Campanella within your first 6 months or a year is a very bad idea. As a beginner pianist you may not be aware of the skill ceiling piano has and how difficult the repertoire can get. Spending hours and hours on a piece like this without a solid foundation and a few years under your belt is just counter progressive. Rather learn something that will help you improve. Diving straight into a piece that is of the highest tier of difficulty will not improve your playing.

Just keep practicing and maybe after a few years you might be able to try it. Just my opinion though, maybe you could surprise me.

[quantum]

Hi, I'm completely new to the piano. I have played the piano for about 1 month. Is it possible for me to learn La campanella within a year?

You need to ask yourself why you want to learn the piano.  Is it just because you want to learn this piece and nothing else? In that case just carry on, it will be difficult and frustrating at times, but with hard work you may be able to make something of it.  You may learn bad habits that can take a long time to unlearn, you might use technique that is inefficient and could be bad for musicians health in the long run, but it comes as a risk with such a choice.  Why one year?  Is there something you want to do with the piece in one year?  Say you did manage to learn the piece in one year, what next?

If you want to learn piano because you are interested in experiencing music and learning many different pieces, reconsider your approach.  Set more manageable goals, pieces that can be learned in a few weeks, and brought to a reasonable level of polish.  Use the Liszt piece as a long term goal, something to work towards.

[attempt3]

Dankdyl I might have to surprise you!  I will show recording sometime and tell me if i should just give up or keep going

[ranjit]

I would think that those who can achieve it as beginners would not ask if it was possible, I would think these people are autodidactic and require no input from others.

I will have to disagree. Being autodidactic (speaking from experience) does not involve being certain about your abilities or knowing how quickly you will learn something. Also, it isn't true that autodidacts require no input from others. It is quite easy to get discouraged from attempting something because of "common sense advice" that it is impossible, which leads to self-doubt, even if it is really a possibility for the person at hand.

Really smart students at school can flounder and have poor performance due to crippling self-doubt, for example. It's dangerous to assume that the people who "make it" or manage to do incredible things don't need any outside help, or that they know the true extent of their capabilities.

[lostinidlewonder]

I will have to disagree. Being autodidactic (speaking from experience) does not involve being certain about your abilities or knowing how quickly you will learn something.

Though time does come into account if we are talking about completing this in 6 months or a year. Someone who is asking many questions and unable to answer them for themselves will probably not be likely able to self learn AS A BEGINNER something of this etude standard.

Also, it isn't true that autodidacts require no input from others.

Well for my case I did the vast majority of my studies on my own. I learned "difficult" works totally on my own as a kid and early teen. I had no idea of difficulty of pieces and simply did whatever interested me. So if I am asked to imagine someone who is a total beginner wanting to play this La Campanella within a year they would certainly work on a level where they don't really need any input to solve the many challenges. They ultimately should be able to solve the majority of the piece on their own and certainly wouldn't be asking about time estimations because they could estimate themselves how long it probably would take.

It is quite easy to get discouraged from attempting something because of "common sense advice" that it is impossible, which leads to self-doubt, even if it is really a possibility for the person at hand.

Well it's most probably like one in a million people who are total beginners would be able to do La Campanella within less than a year. I think there is no problems to doubt that people just won't be able to do it. Building up skill level in an appropriate manner should be promoted. The chances are if you encourage a total beginner to try La Campanella in their first year as their only focus you will be leading them down a failures path.

Really smart students at school can flounder and have poor performance due to crippling self-doubt, for example. It's dangerous to assume that the people who "make it" or manage to do incredible things don't need any outside help, or that they know the true extent of their capabilities.

No doubt, though if someone is upset that they can't play a tough Liszt Etude in their first year of playing they are being highly melodramatic.

[stylerpiano]

It's a very hard piece and I learned few parts of it few years ago, and now I finally finished the learning of the piece.  Btw. I learned 1-2 year from a teacher and mostly self thaught. I always looking for challanges so I could learn some techniques from other hard pieces (I didn't finish them just learn some parts of them) so it was easier after them.

[attempt3]

UPDATE: this is the fourth day learning it and i almost finished the first part. All i can say is i need a lot more practice on speeding the piece and I'm tend to master first part then moving on. The jumps are hard and i get soreness from playing DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY TIP FOR ME???

[ranjit]

The jumps are hard and i get soreness from playing DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY TIP FOR ME???

Have you even been listening to what other people on this page have been saying, lol?

Focusing on speed and accuracy is worthless without the right technique. Whether you're learning on your own or with a teacher, you don't get a pass on developing proper technique, and there is absolutely no way you can play La Campanella with poor technique. Read my long comment above for some suggestions on how to acquire that.

There's a quote attributed to Abraham Lincoln: Give me six hours to chop a tree and I would spend the first four sharpening the axe. Focus on developing the necessary skills in the first few months. Given your current situation, especially since you seem to have very little experience functioning as an autodidact, it does not look as if you can even really attempt La Campanella. I would advise getting a teacher.

Also, a tip: If you want feedback on what is wrong with your hand position etc., post a video of you playing asking for feedback, or describe in excruciating anatomical detail how exactly your hand looks and functions. Otherwise, there is no way people can provide good feedback for technical issues.

[lostinidlewonder]

There's a quote attributed to Abraham Lincoln: Give me six hours to chop a tree and I would spend the first four sharpening the axe.

I really like that quote, perfect analogy to use here.

[attempt3]

I do read all the comments. 

I will send a video at some point

[ranjit]

I agree with the other posters here that it's inadvisable for you to continue to attempt La Campanella.

Anyway, see if Josh Wright's video helps. Notice what he's doing, and how he approaches the piece. Observe whether your hand position is at the very least similar to his (otherwise, you're most likely doing it wrong). See how he breaks down the technical issues, and notice that he almost never talks about speed and accuracy. It's all about getting the movements as fluid and natural as possible.

If you aren't able to appreciate what he is talking about, you should definitely work up from simpler tutorials about hand position. There are some good ones out there on Youtube (In general, I recommend pianocareer, cedarvillemusic, Josh Wright and Graham Fitch). If you are not at the level where you can understand and apply their advice to your playing, you should definitely not be attempting La Campanella.
 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Lmao the OP has no idea what he’s doing

[attempt3]

thank you ranjit!! that was really really helpfull

[stylerpiano]

In this forum I usually got the answers too that don't learn such a hard piece etc... But as you can see in my video I posted above I could finish the learning of La Campanella and I nearly can play it in the right tempo (no, this is not the tempo in my video, it's just practice tempo) and of course I should practice the end of the piece because it was very new when I recorded the practice video.

But I can tell you that start with this piece is absolutely wrong idea. I learned many other piece and started some extremely hard to achieve my current skills which is enought from some aspect to play this piece but it can happen that I will need some years to master the dynamic etc.... So to memorize it and to play it somehow don't equal to play it as it should  be played.

But of course in this forum they ignore my video because everybody said me to not learn it (because it's impossible...) and I succesfully finished to learn it

[ranjit]

But of course in this forum they ignore my video because everybody said me to not learn it (because it's impossible...) and I succesfully finished to learn it

I'm sure that you might get some replies if you bring this up to speed and post in the audition room. You have got some feedback on the Lassan portion of the HR2 video you posted as well. While the video you posted here demonstrates that you have the piece memorized, it doesn't say anything about whether you can play it at performance tempo.

I don't mean to discredit your experience with people telling you it's "impossible" to learn difficult repertoire on the piano on your own. I have faced similar discouragement a lot of the time as well, in fact. (I still can't speak for whether it is valid, since there may well be crucial aspects of technique or interpretation which are still missing.) I was pretty surprised to see that a lot of people here have actually self-taught a considerable amount.

[stylerpiano]

Yes. HR2 was more difficult than this piece and I didn't parctice HR2 as much I parctice this piece... And I stopped to learn HR2 after Lassan.
And I can agree what you have written... Nobody can play this pieces as the great professionals... Yes it's a fact. So nobody should post this piece on this forum right? Just the professionals. Many people think this way here I think, but I think nobody should give up his dreams about playing the piano. We are not proferssionals and of course we will not be able to play this as professionals

[ranjit]

Though time does come into account if we are talking about completing this in 6 months or a year. Someone who is asking many questions and unable to answer them for themselves will probably not be likely able to self learn AS A BEGINNER something of this etude standard.

I see what you mean, and I largely agree with you. I would imagine that someone who has the ability to learn a concert etude in a year should be able to figure out answers to most "simple" questions on their own, and should be well-versed with the rudiments of music theory within a matter of days.

They ultimately should be able to solve the majority of the piece on their own and certainly wouldn't be asking about time estimations because they could estimate themselves how long it probably would take.

I agree with the first part, but disagree with the second. Coming up with time estimates for learning a piece requires a great deal of self-confidence. Imagine a person who analyzes the piece, and estimates that they could play it in a few months or a year. Then, they go online and check -- and people are saying it takes at least 10 years. What's the first thought that comes our hypothetical student's mind -- that people must think s/he's batshit crazy for even thinking they could accomplish it in a year! That they're inexperienced, and there are all of these people playing since so long who say it's not possible, so there must be something wrong with their estimate.

So, the problem is that even if the student could come up with a reasonable estimate, it would be very hard for them to have confidence in their estimate unless they are of a very stubborn disposition.

That said, I agree with you that someone who actually has an ability to self-teach to a high standard should definitely be asking far better questions. They should have already figured out a significant portion of what needs to be done, on their own.

[attempt3]

This is how i play without any technique there is a lot more practice needed and i skipped the first part and when straight into the jumping. please CRITICIZE

[stylerpiano]

On other forum I got a very rare and extremely well played performance by Arrau who was the pupil of one of Listz student. It's worth to listen.

[stylerpiano]

Few people think it's slow, but my favorite performance is by Adam Gyorgy, he is a real Liszt performer from Hungary, but he live in New York since a while and plays world wide.

[cabbynum]

This is how i play without any technique there is a lot more practice needed and i skipped the first part and when straight into the jumping. please CRITICIZE

play the first part, its important too.

I will say you are at the easiest poriton. When I first started piano I also jumped in these waters and thought I would be that one different guy who could do it. This piece is excruciatingly difficult. I put it down after I got through the 2nd page. Funny thing is now a days I have no interest in this piece. Its very attainable with my technique now and I simply do not like the piece anymore. I find it boring and frankly annoying. I will say I love the Ab section of the original version.

I would suggest similar to what everyone else has suggested.

Keep fiddling around with it and have fun but also take a look at some easier repertoire to build your sight reading ability and your foundational technique. Try and learn beethoven op.2 no.1 or a prelude and fugue from the wtc

[attempt3]

yes i do know I'm at the easiest part of the song I did fiddle around with turkish march but i still want to really play La Campanella, I know within a year I wont be able to learn this piece as i don't have the technical skill, but i believe i can learn this piece within my life time.


I wont give up:)

[adodd81802]

Lmao the OP has no idea what he’s doing

Praise the lord that somebody said this. Seeing all the old-timers posting replies actually entertaining this kinda nonsense

[ranjit]

Praise the lord that somebody said this. Seeing all the old-timers posting replies actually entertaining this kinda nonsense

To be fair, most people warned him it was likely not possible. And imo it's not a good idea to overly stifle someone's personal enthusiasm. Lots of people started out attempting difficult repertoire, and transitioned to learning "properly" a few months later.

[attempt3]

NO I REFUSE, even though in a few months im probably going to give up and start to focus on studying so i can go to a good university, but NO on the time being NO and NO ((((((((((

Im actually struggling in playing the second part lmao

imma never finish this piece but look at the bright side its only my 5th day

[keypeg]

Why, exactly, are you asking if it's possible?  You're doing it, attempting it, and don't want anyone's opinion even though you asked for it.  I'm not catching the goal.

[attempt3]

yea actually was asking for advice and then im starting to play it so now the question has changed to "please give me tips on how to play campanella" and am i playing it right?

[lostinidlewonder]

Praise the lord that somebody said this. Seeing all the old-timers posting replies actually entertaining this kinda nonsense

Did you even read the posts or just one or two words of each one?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Praise the lord that somebody said this. Seeing all the old-timers posting replies actually entertaining this kinda nonsense

And of all pieces to be passionate about this is the lowest musical content to difficulty ratio in all of repertoire.  If you could find a way to quantify that sort of thing

If I could I would pay a grand or two to unlearn this piece lol

[quantum]

imma never finish this piece but look at the bright side its only my 5th day

An experienced pianist with the requsite technique to learn this piece may spend months on it before deeming it ready for playing in public.  Something to think about.

Consider what people are saying here. 

[brogers70]

And of all pieces to be passionate about this is the lowest musical content to difficulty ratio in all of repertoire.  If you could find a way to quantify that sort of thing

I agree. And I'd love to find a way to quantify the "musical content to difficulty ratio," since that's the main criterion I use in choosing pieces to work on.

[stylerpiano]

Of course this topic is not mine and I agree with all of you in your statements about the OP.
He is seems to be a TROLL, but sorry if not.

I'm sure that you might get some replies if you bring this up to speed and post in the audition room.

Sorry, but I can't agree with this point of view. This is the student's main topic and I shared my video about my practice session because I would like to get some useful feedback because lots of us don't have teacher (I had 2 teachers, but I lost them accidentaly unfortunately in a row in 2 years..., I didn't want a 3.).
So I don't understand the reason that why people ignore my video in my topic.
It's not the audition room but this main topic (Student's Corner is for study, not)? And for help probably 

Yesterday I recorded the whole piece - practiced from start to end in a practice tempo just to get some feedback, but nothing: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=66184.0

[ranjit]

Of course this topic is not mine and I agree with all of you in your statements about the OP.
He is seems to be a TROLL, but sorry if not.

The OP is not a troll. He went through the effort of listening to people's views, and posting a video of himself playing a few measures in order to get feedback. Misguided? Perhaps. But he's not a troll.

[attempt3]

Can any one tell me how the hand movement works? I've seen alot of videos and alot of them are different each each a different style and my hand just can seem to relax

[perfect_pitch]

I'm going to put this in a way you might understand. There are people who can deadlift 300kg (and more), while I might only be able to do 60kg. In order to get to that level, you do NOT start piling on 300kg of weight and repeatedly attempt to lift it until the day you can do it...

This is essentially what you are doing. You're either going to cause muscle damage trying to speed it up, or bugger up the finesse and musical beauty of it in an attempt to learn it.

Playing piano shouldn't be the pursuit of learning one piece, but the journey you go through to get to that level.

[attempt3]

Yes i understand what You all are trying to tell me. give up on the piece and build my way up.

[ranjit]

I'm going to put this in a way you might understand. There are people who can deadlift 300kg (and more), while I might only be able to do 60kg. In order to get to that level, you do NOT start piling on 300kg of weight and repeatedly attempt to lift it until the day you can do it...

Playing piano is more like gymnastics rather than weightlifting in that all that is required to play it properly is to find the right movements...

[j_tour]

Yes i understand what You all are trying to tell me. give up on the piece and build my way up.

Well, you can do both.  Spend five or ten minutes a day doing a measure or two just to keep it in your mind.

I don't know La campanella, and I undoubtedly couldn't play it without a long time working at it, if then.  I'm still stuck on the "easy" first Transcendental Étude, just haven't put in the effort to remember the comparatively few notes.

[quantum]

Yes i understand what You all are trying to tell me. give up on the piece and build my way up.

It's more like, this piece is not appropriate for you at this point of your piano study.  Use it as a long term goal.

You can cause physical injury if you push yourself far beyond your current technical abilities.  Take that seriously.  Undoing bad habits takes time, if one day you decide to become really serious about piano you might need to spend more time to unlearn things that are harmful to your technique.

[quantum]

Playing piano is more like gymnastics rather than weightlifting in that all that is required to play it properly is to find the right movements...

One of my teachers also liked to make an analogy to figure skating. 

[stylerpiano]

He is troll I think still. But if not you try to convince a person about a thing which he will experience in the near future, just like if somebody try to lift up a 300kg weight.

On the other hand I opened a serious topic about the piece and nobody can answer me, but few years earlier you suggested the same thing for me just like to the OP. However in that time I didn't learn the piece.
Now when I arrived to the last part of the learning curve with lots of work, you can't really write me a little sentense or suggest something really to help a little bit.

However I got many positive feedback in the time on this forum, nowadays I don't understand that what should I do to get some help, or where can I get some help.

I know that now I will never get any anwer for my any post but I had to write my feelings down about the situation...

Or I misunderstand something and I should post my practice session to audition room to get feedback?

[cabbynum]

One of my teachers also liked to make an analogy to figure skating.

I had a teacher make an analogy to lingerie... not to give too much away upfront!

[dogperson]

He is troll I think still. But if not you try to convince a person about a thing which he will experience in the near future, just like if somebody try to lift up a 300kg weight.

On the other hand I opened a serious topic about the piece and nobody can answer me, but few years earlier you suggested the same thing for me just like to the OP. However in that time I didn't learn the piece.
Now when I arrived to the last part of the learning curve with lots of work, you can't really write me a little sentense or suggest something really to help a little bit.

However I got many positive feedback in the time on this forum, nowadays I don't understand that what should I do to get some help, or where can I get some help.

I know that now I will never get any anwer for my any post but I had to write my feelings down about the situation...

Or I misunderstand something and I should post my practice session to audition room to get feedback?

Your highjacking someone else's post, to call them a troll TWICE and then complain about not getting help, is a big turn-off