Do you know why?

[sarahlein]

Hello,
I wonder if any of you experienced teachers can help me out here.
Why is it that once a piece(say... late intermediate, advanced and beyond) is mastered, memorized and all, ready for performance in front of an audiance, suddenly falls apart!!??
Places where things used to be ok(notes, etc. under control) now become problematic. I've experienced this as a student and now as a teacher with some of my students. I recall my own teacher telling me that is quite normal but to be honest never inquired further as to why. So here I am trying to get to the bottom of this since I want to be able in turn to explain why to my students.
I'm not looking for how to solve the problem rather an explanation as to why it happens. Your responces will be greatly appreciated

[m1469]

Hello,
I wonder if any of you experienced teachers can help me out here.
Why is it that once a piece(say... late intermediate, advanced and beyond) is mastered, memorized and all, ready for performance in front of an audiance, suddenly falls apart!!??
Places where things used to be ok(notes, etc. under control) now become problematic. I've experienced this as a student and now as a teacher with some of my students. I recall my own teacher telling me that is quite normal but to be honest never inquired further as to why. So here I am trying to get to the bottom of this since I want to be able in turn to explain why to my students.
I'm not looking for how to solve the problem rather an explanation as to why it happens. Your responces will be greatly appreciated

Hello Sarahlein,

I do not have scientific thoughts on this subject, just those developed from my own experiences.  But I am thinking of two things mainly with regard to this:

1.   An entire piece can become over practiced and begin to fall apart as a result, and htis may be all it is.  I have listed below a couple of links where Bernhard writes about over practicing as well as what it means to truly master a piece.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1844.msg13949.html#msg13949
(Bernhard writes about practicing just enough reply # 1)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5995.msg58775.html#msg58775
(Bernhard writes about mastering a piece and what it really means reply #1)


2.  It has been my experience that sometimes I will have a piece thoroughly learned and performance ready, but should I get into a certain environment, it may indeed fall apart for reasons other than my preparation with the piece itself.  To delve a little more deeply, it may have more to do with the individual and how sensitive they may be, than with the quality or quantity of preparation they have put into learning a piece as it is normally thought of.

I believe in choosing pieces that will not only help an individual grow musically, but personally as well.  There are many facets to this, but just to give a broad thought on it, I would say that sometimes an individual must continually learn how to fit his/her person inside of what their task is musically.  Sometimes it is subtle and happens without one even noticing, but sometimes it is not so subtle and is very noticeable.  When a big growth happens personally, a big growth musically may be needed and with this things that were in place once before, may suddenly become disarrayed.

Just some thoughts,

m1469

[bernhard]

Let me rant for a while.

The explanation is simple but it is likely to leave you dissatisfied.

Although you may have felt and believed that the piece was mastered, memorized and all, ready for performance in front of an audience, it simply was none of those things.

There you are.

Now, far more useful in my opinion, is to direct one’s efforts in exactly the direction you seem not interested: how to solve the problem.

Your teacher (and now your experience) are correct: it is quite normal, but it is certainly not desirable. It is quite normal for students to leave school knowing next to nothing useful. It is quite normal for the majority of people in this world to leave a life of utmost mediocrity. (“Don’t make waves”).

A few piano students can easily become compulsive about mechanical practice at the piano, spending 6 – 8 hours a day drilling inanities, and yet be completely indolent in regards to all other aspects of music. Most cannot be bothered to practise at all.

Truly mastering a piece goes well beyond simple – and single minded – piano practice. It involves analysing the piece; deconstructing it and then rebuilding it. It means trying to figure out how the composer did it. It involves getting to know the composer, what made him/her tick. It involves getting to know in depth the music of the composer and of his/her contemporaries, not only for piano. It involves understanding how the piece developped from the composers that preceded it and how it influenced the composers that followed.

Music history, music theory, analysis, psychology, physics, religion, literature, (…keep adding!) that can be related to the piece should be known and incorporated in one’s understanding of the piece. One should have listened to all interpretations available of the piece. One should be able to play from memory any passage of the piece, starting and ending anywhere (“Can you please play for me  bars 12 to 17?”).

And this is truly just the tip of the iceberg. Anyone who can do this sort of intensive an extensive study for a piece – I assure you – will never have the problem you refer to.

And it is not even very difficult to do it. The problem is, no one aims their practice at it.

I have seen several people do it (e.g. Rosalyn Tureck and Charles Rosen to mention but two): Their degree of mastery of their repertory was such that they could sit down at the piano and play from memory specific bars from a work to demonstrate points of connection of the piece to art and literature, or to exemplify a harmonic idiossincracy the composer had introduced, and so on and so forth.

Anyone can do it, but one must will that sort of thorough knowledge from the very beginning of the study of a piece.

So here is the answer in a nutshell: Indolence combined with misguided industriousness resulting in the delusion of mastery.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[lostinidlewonder]

I have had this problem with a few of my own students. But never with students who have been playing for a while and which have a memorised repetiore. I find it is students who only have memorised a limited amount of music, like lets say for arguments sake around 10 pieces, will have memory lapses. I think it is simply because the mind hasn't had enough practice memorising music and hasnt picked up on the common shapes and pattern of all music and styles which you use for memory.

You will find as you build your volume of memorised music you will also strengthen the foundations which maintain your actual ability to play them on demand. Your accuracy of notes and dynamics, this develops with age as your library of memorised pieces increase. Advanced pianists will agree that all music has some relation to one another. There is never a piece put in front of an advanced pianist that totally baffels them. There is always some tools from what was played before that they can pull out to tackle what they might have never seen. That is why some can sightread concertos, because the tools used are so obvious that when you read it, what you have to do is routine and logical. If you consider sections of a piece as unique to your hand, something you have never seen before anywhere, maybe a piece like this you should question about peforming in public. These type of peices can fall apart very easily because the mind is still trying to digest these new grounds.

As for familiar pieces falling apart on the day of peformance. It could be a matter of nerves more than your actual ability. If you are playing it perfectly months before the peformance then it mysteriously falls apart on the day, question your mental state when you are on stage.
  I use to have a horrible time on stage when i was younger, i use to think ridiculous things like the mutiplication tables as i played. Why? Stuffed if I know! I knew one kid who had to swing his leg back and forth when he played infront fo people, maybe he was a metronome in his past life I dunno, weird some of us. I eventually controlled it to some extent as one of my teachers taught me how to listen to myself more as i played to avoid myself or the audience distract me.

You might find recording yourself is good practice, and while you record keep saying to yourself, oh no dont stuff up, like you might in concert. Mucking around with that mental abuse to yoruself stuff helps i reckon It might solidify your pieces so they dont fall apart on the day.

[sarahlein]

Thank you all for your replies.
 However I think what I wanted to say wasn't really understood that way (my fault perhaps)

I'm not talking about memory labses while practising or performing the piece.

Bernhard, you wrote:
Truly mastering a piece goes well beyond simple – and single minded – piano practice. It involves analysing the piece; deconstructing it and then rebuilding it. It means trying to figure out how the composer did it. It involves getting to know the composer, what made him/her tick. It involves getting to know in depth the music of the composer and of his/her contemporaries, not only for piano. It involves understanding how the piece developped from the composers that preceded it and how it influenced the composers that followed.

Music history, music theory, analysis, psychology, physics, religion, literature, (…keep adding!) that can be related to the piece should be known and incorporated in one’s understanding of the piece. One should have listened to all interpretations available of the piece. One should be able to play from memory any passage of the piece, starting and ending anywhere (“Can you please play for me  bars 12 to 17?”).  

I couldn't agree with you more. And this is something I do give attention to with my student's. The homework is being done (of course, there's always room for improvement in all we do).

So memory is not the problem, rather the technical execution of certain passages, that never possed a problem before and this not in front of an audiance with the extra stress it creates but in the regular practise environment. The same environment where the day before everything run smoothly.
Is it over practising? ( Haven't read the thread sent to me from m1469 Fox yet. I'll get to it in a min.)
Do I make sence? I hope so, because I'd welcome some more replies.

[whynot]

Well, this is interesting stuff.  I appreciated all the prior posts.  That there are two other things I experience which give me the problem you're talking about.  It's temporary now because I've learned how to solve it (hope I haven't cursed myself by saying that).

One is that, when I first learn a technical event in a piece, I'm playing that part as fast as I can, and there's a certain momentum in going as fast as I can that makes it easy, in a way.  As the technical thing gets easier and I'm able to do it faster than performance tempo, I temporarily fall apart because the motion has to be more controlled than when I was just throwing myself at it.  It's like coloratura singing or ballet in that high speed can be easier than moderate speed.  When I get to that point, I have to find new footholds within the passage.  Usually I just put in a few accents, then take them away but keep them in my mind. 

The other factor for me is, when I'm learning, either on the technical or memorizing end,
I'm pretty absorbed in what I'm doing.  Once I know it, my mind starts to wander more,  and my fingers can slip a little when my thoughts are less organized.  That's when I have to find something more in the music to think about, like character and color, to keep my mind on the piece. 

Best of luck... 

[Dikai]

i believe you (to whom this may be) over practice the piece...
it happens especially at the final hour before a recital or competition....
if you practice too much beyond perfection (in your own standard),
you start to find that... woo ... this is not right, that can be better, i should use other fingers instead of this, yada yada.... then suddenly, you'll find that the entire piece is a mistake...

i found a way to cope with the problem, if you believe you've prefected a piece, do still practice, but do not over practice... suppose you don't play a 15min piece 8 times in 2 hours straight, that's when problems surface.... try to slow down a bit....  especially before a recital.. say you have your last hour.. play only the once or twice tops..... it usually turns out better

[ChristmasCarol]

Emotions are present whenever learning a piece.  Who hasn't been reminded of a certain piece of music right when experiencing the same emotion.  One's emotional state is a variable that influences my playing.  The more experience and practice one has the less this is evident to others but it is still going on inside of me and how I feel about the performance.   I have a strong focus on communication with a student when selecting a piece.  I look for a response to their hearing it played.  When they choose to work on it with me, then the focus remains strong.  I further allow them to change their minds after a few weeks if it just isn't working for them.  This, in my opinion, puts them in the driver's seat of their musicianship.   What I get back is students who work their tails off on a piece that they can relate to very well.   I agree, it's nearly impossible to forget something if you really know it.  I'm with George Leonard who said he only remembers that which he learned in ecstasy.  Modern educational models have produced a generation of students who are only told to spit back what is given because the teachers know what's best.   I saw a sign in a teacher's lounge once that said, "If you can read, thank your teacher."  I heartily disagree.  Ownership of the process is fundamental to empowerment and success.  One six year old had a baby sitter show her the first few notes of Fur Elise.  The child's a complete beginner.  She asked me if she could learn it.  I said of course.  We worked on it for a few weeks, she discovered it was too hard.  She said she would like to wait before going any further.  I feel that she got a lot more out of learning for herself what's down the road, than if I had told her that same thing.  Now she really knows it.  She also gets that I respect her interests and we're in this together.