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Topic: New Language  (Read 2275 times)

Offline samwitdangol

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New Language
on: May 12, 2020, 01:28:31 AM
Hello,

I want to learn a new language because I am interested in languages, but I am not sure what to learn. I also thought that it would be beneficial if I learned a language that is frequently used in classical music; I can also use it for my own music because I don't think that English suits scores. Since I am trying to refine my Spanish, I don't want to learn Italian since they are similar. Does anybody have any recommendations?
I've touched a little Mandarin and learned the Russian alphabet, but I am still unsure as to what language to learn

Thank you!

Offline j_tour

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Re: New Language
Reply #1 on: May 12, 2020, 02:10:54 AM
(If you know Spanish, there's a pretty good degree of mutual intelligibility between Spanish and Italian.  IN writing?  Much less so, IME.

I spent a year or two as an undergraduate studying Italian.  I already knew rudimentary spoken French, and I didn't find that helped, and I didn't know Latin at the time, but I don't think Latin is all that useful for reading literary Italian.

But I did find it pretty easy to pick up, at least at a rudimentary level.)

Yes, I seen rereading that you're not interested in Italian. For all I know you could pretty easily read Italian with your background in Spanish.  I only speak a kind of "street Spanish," so I wouldn't know.

(i ]I would probably learn German, at least as a reading language.  I find it's a pretty logical language, at least for simpler literary works and, most definitely for didactic works. 

Spoken conversational German is a little bit different.  The lexicon is, I word say, very large, and very strange, from the perspective of an English speaker.   I can understand and speak simple things, but I'm by no means fluent.

One difficulty if you haven't learned Latin is if you're not familiar with the noun cases, but there's only a handful of them, and you can often just infer from context which is being used.

(ii) French is an excellent choice as well.  No, you can't exactly draw a straight line from Spanish or Italian to French.  The two groups are rather different. 

However, in didactic works, it's very unlikely you'd need to worry about much "fancy" diction or complicated tenses.

And, if you're reading it, you have no need to bother about their somewhat odd system of assigning genders to words (but many times it maps to, say, Spanish, pretty well).

There is the advantage that there are more cognates in English than, say, in German, although the latter has quite a few as well.  Much of the vocabulary would be somewhat familiar to you.

And, besides, just like in English, there are objective and subjective cases, the inflections are rather simple.
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline samwitdangol

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Re: New Language
Reply #2 on: May 12, 2020, 02:24:40 AM
I would probably learn German, at least as a reading language.  I find it's a pretty logical language,   

Mark Twain says otherwise.
https://www.daad.org/files/2016/07/Mark_Twain-Broschuere.pdf

Offline samwitdangol

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Re: New Language
Reply #3 on: May 12, 2020, 02:27:15 AM
French is an excellent choice as well.  No, you can't exactly draw a straight line from Spanish or Italian to French.  The two groups are rather different. 

I considered learning French, but I thought that it might be too similar to Spanish and may cause confusion wtih my Spanish. Is learning French going to hinder my Spanish? If not, I will most likely learn it.

Offline j_tour

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Re: New Language
Reply #4 on: May 12, 2020, 02:37:21 AM
Mark Twain says otherwise.
https://www.daad.org/files/2016/07/Mark_Twain-Broschuere.pdf

Heh.  Yeah, I don't even have to click on the link;  I'm pretty sure I've read Twain's (probably with humorous intent, Twain's) various bons mots on the subject.

Well, French it is then!

I happen to like the German language, but I prefer French, but, there is an awful lot of scholarly material relevant to music written in German, much of which may not have been translated.  As well, you can dive right into reading delightful material like Kafka's stories, or the Märchen of the Brothers Grimm very quickly indeed, at least with the aid of a good dictionary.

Polish?

Roman Ingarden translated many of his most important works himself into German, but if you have an analytic mind and an interest in formal logic and ontology, it could be interesting to examine his works on æsthetics in Polish.
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline j_tour

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Re: New Language
Reply #5 on: May 12, 2020, 02:43:26 AM
I considered learning French, but I thought that it might be too similar to Spanish and may cause confusion wtih my Spanish. Is learning French going to hinder my Spanish? If not, I will most likely learn it.

Just saw this.  With my limited kowledge of Spanish, I would say absolutely not, it wouldn't interfere.

French is really not too close to the Italo-Luso-Spanish complex of languages.

There are some structural similarities, but completely different traditions, going back many hundreds of years, reflected in morphology, syntax, and lexicon.
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline outin

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Re: New Language
Reply #6 on: May 12, 2020, 03:48:52 AM
If I were to learn a new language now it would have to be be Russian. For music and some other purposes. I have officially studied Swedish and German (and English obviously) and tried a little bit of Chinese, Italian, French and Spanish but did not really get into those. I have never really needed any of those languages. Russian would be more useful, but I think I am too lazy to get into it anymore...

Offline j_tour

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Re: New Language
Reply #7 on: May 12, 2020, 12:08:03 PM
If I were to learn a new language now it would have to be be Russian. For music and some other purposes. I have officially studied Swedish and German (and English obviously) and tried a little bit of Chinese, Italian, French and Spanish but did not really get into those. I have never really needed any of those languages. Russian would be more useful, but I think I am too lazy to get into it anymore...

Russian's not a bad choice at all.  I would have thought a Finn would have some historical reasons for wanting to avoid the Russian.  You know, going back quite a ways.  It could be useful to me for chatting with some computer nerd/hackers online, or in person.

@OP:  are you learning for reading fluency, or conversational fluency?  Perhaps both, but there is probably one or the other motive that is stronger.  And are you a native English speaker?  I'm guessing yes.

In any case, I've found French to be the next closest to a "universal" language to English, these days.  I use it all the time to chat with immigrants from countries all over Africa, where the language is very widely known.  Large parts of SE Asia as well, but those I meet seem more eager to just speak in English, however broken it might be.
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline samwitdangol

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Re: New Language
Reply #8 on: May 12, 2020, 09:17:04 PM
I have one more question. What language do composers typically use in their scores?

I learned that Chopin spoke French and Polish; why is it that he uses Italian terms in his scores then?

Offline j_tour

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Re: New Language
Reply #9 on: May 12, 2020, 10:19:31 PM
I couldn't say about Chopin:  maybe he just wanted to be fancy.

Scriabin used French very often, but I think that has more to do with literary and cultural traditions.  Just like you'll see loads of French conversations in Tolstoi or Dostoevsky.

I think Beethoven was one of the first to use extensive German on his scores, and of course the language in the libretti of some of Mozart's operas.

I would say the Italian terms are the historical lingua franca for much of music history. 

I could be wrong, but I'm sure I'm not.

There are other cultural factors:  for example, in diplomacy and politics on the continent, French was traditional.  This explains why, for example Leibniz was, in my opinion, a masterful prose stylist in French, in addition to some of his deft use of prose Latin in some of his works, which I think survived at least till then as the language of early-modern humanism.

My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline Bob

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Re: New Language
Reply #10 on: May 12, 2020, 10:52:54 PM
For music, German, French, Italian, Russian.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline outin

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Re: New Language
Reply #11 on: May 13, 2020, 03:34:51 AM
Russian's not a bad choice at all.  I would have thought a Finn would have some historical reasons for wanting to avoid the Russian.  You know, going back quite a ways.
Oh no, it's the compulsory Swedish that we Finns hate...

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: New Language
Reply #12 on: May 13, 2020, 03:56:20 AM
Learn Mandarin, you will be able to communicate with a huge amount of people then. It is a tough language to learn though, you need to speak with native speakers a lot.
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Offline j_tour

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Re: New Language
Reply #13 on: May 13, 2020, 12:25:23 PM
Learn Mandarin, you will be able to communicate with a huge amount of people then. It is a tough language to learn though, you need to speak with native speakers a lot.

That's a solid choice.  I almost made it through a standard, multivolume textbook in Mandarin, but I found that it was a waste of time trying to learn the ideographs.  You could do it using pinyin romanization, though.

Spoken Mandarin, though, sure.  IMHO the Pimsleur tapes are OK, but very limited in general.  The US department of .... I don't know ... state or foreign relations ... has good aural material, designed for diplomats and such, and AFAIK available for free online.  I've never done those for Mandarin, but an aural/conversational competence could probably be pretty easily acquired.

I don't know that the language itself is terribly complicated.  Some different concepts, to be sure.

For relevance to Western music, though, I'd still stick with either German or French.  And Russian, as a runner-up. 

/*ETA for you, I think German is going to be of the most benefit, both for music and for cultural knowledge.  While French is rather dissimilar to the Italo-Luso-Iberian complex, you may get bored with another Romance language.  And German is very useful in some areas where French doesn't overlap.  Every highly educated Frenchman knows German, at least to a high level of reading comprehension, but for historical reasons, there is not necessarily such a degree of enthusiasm for speaking it.*/
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

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