Unpopular Opinions

[liszt-and-the-galops]

That’s not what I said

I never said that's what you said, I only said that that's what it seemed like you were implying.

His reason for not liking scarbo is that it sounds the same all the way through but Le Gibet is more ‘the same’ than scarbo.  So I’m just tryna get a more detailed answer for why he doesn’t like scarbo.

Then phrase your question as a question and not an irritated statement of "fact."

YOU’RE hearing that because you just want drama

Think that if you want. I honestly thought that that's what you were doing when you said this:

Obsessing over difficulty is the shallowest non musical conversation that only exists cause people don’t actually enjoy the music or know how to talk about it

And this:

...But yeah in general everyone talks about the same 10 pieces over and over and over again and don’t actually say anything meaningful about anything.  I’m convinced that don’t even like listening to classical music...

Have a nice day.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I never said that's what you said, I only said that that's what it seemed like you were implying.Then phrase your question as a question and not an irritated statement of "fact."Think that if you want. I honestly thought that that's what you were doing when you said this:And this:
Have a nice day.

I made a comment on the actual music that has nothing to do with implying anyone is an idiot.  You’re the one who assumed a musical comment is a personal attack.

The later is true I was tryna stir the pot and I love calling people out for it.  Obsessing over what’s harder Petrushka or Gaspard or whatever the top 10 trendy hard pieces are IS shallow and pretty annoying.  I’ve been playing Gaspard to death for the past decade cause everyone’s like oMg iT’S thE hArDest pIeCe Ever instead of having anything actually artistic or musical to say about it

[liszt-and-the-galops]

I made a comment on the actual music that has nothing to do with implying anyone is an idiot.  You’re the one who assumed a musical comment is a personal attack.

It very much came across as an attack, regardless of your intentions.
Essentially, you were claiming that your opinion is correct and the other opinion (lelle's) is wrong, when actual opinions can't be right or wrong.

The later is true I was tryna stir the pot and I love calling people out for it.  Obsessing over what’s harder Petrushka or Gaspard or whatever the top 10 trendy hard pieces are IS shallow and pretty annoying.

I agree with that statement; typical difficulty conversations (e.g "Rank these pieces by difficulty: Fantaisie-Impromptu, La Campanella, HR 6, HR 2, Winter Wind, Torrent, FotB, B1") don't interest me in the slightest.
My question is, who were you "calling out" when you said that?

[thorn]

Surely "caring about the music" means not derailing threads with this rubbish...

Is that an unpopular opinion?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

It very much came across as an attack, regardless of your intentions.
Essentially, you were claiming that your opinion is correct and the other opinion (lelle's) is wrong, when actual opinions can't be right or wrong.I agree with that statement; typical difficulty conversations (e.g "Rank these pieces by difficulty: Fantaisie-Impromptu, La Campanella, HR 6, HR 2, Winter Wind, Torrent, FotB, B1") don't interest me in the slightest.
My question is, who were you "calling out" when you said that?

If it came across as an attack that has everything to with you and not with me.  I didn’t claim he was right or wrong or not all I said was that Le Gibet is more ‘the same’ as Scarbo.  I don’t even like Gaspard and I have no reason to defend it.

If I throw a rock and it hits you holler if it doesn’t then keep it moving

[transitional]

I like Gaspard but think Scarbo is a bit too long and samey, even in the hands of a really good pianist. I wish he could have found a way to shorten it a bit. Especially on the first dozen listens it's just this long slog of samey stuff-that-happens. Ondine and Le Gibet on the other hand are lovely.

Ravel had much better pieces. I get the feeling from listening to Gaspard that everyone loves it primarily because of its sheer difficulty. It's dense, which is cool, I suppose, until I heard Daphnis et Chloe. Not everything needs to be on a piano.

Scarbo like isn’t a waltz at all though lol

As for my favorite Ravel piece, I love La Valse, which you could potentially classify as a "grotesque waltz". It has some beautiful rolling moments and the opening, while a bit irritating at first, opens up throughout the different overlapping melodies. Each distinct idea has many things done with it, but it's never too hard to follow. Also, the original orchestral version is just one of the most stunning orchestrations I've ever heard.

[transitional]

However, the primary reason that I dislike her is that she hold pro-Putin views.

I'm a big proponent of separating the art from the artist, but in this case, Lisitsa doesn't really have anything to offer. She can play a bunch of over-boasted warhorse pieces cleanly but I just don't listen. Still don't hate her.

Maybe I talk about him too much, but here's an unpopular opinion: Lang Lang's "exaggeration" actually works. It's like Pogorelich but somewhat worse ... which is still effective. It may not be the deepest interpretation, but he's my go to for HR 2 and 6, and a bunch of other flashy pieces. I feel like he plays the finale of Chopin Sonata 3 too slow though, for some reason.

[transitional]

So anyone who likes Le Gibet is an idiot for liking something that's the essentially the same throughout?

Actually, Ravel is known for his repetition, to an extent. Personally, Bolero is a drag for me and it's all the same simple chords that keep getting bigger, but I do see the appeal. I feel like it's always fresh but actually calls for more expansion. He could have added a second theme with a V chord or something and a slow decrescendo, or something else that draws it back if you're looking for peak boredom. And just like Ravel said, it's typically played too fast. But I would really rather just listen to Reich if I want a true minimalist piece.

[thorn]

Daphnis and Chloe is on another level. Favourite Ravel work hands down.

I also like La Valse, but for me "each distinct idea has many things done with it" applies to Scarbo too. Also I like Constant's orchestration of Scarbo (I don't think Ondine works and Le Gibet is too literal with the bell).

As for Bolero, Ravel was annoyed that of all his compositions that would be the one he was best known for. You'll find a lot of repetition in all the most famous classical pieces- eg. Moonlight 1st mvt- because it's what the general listener wants, look at popular music too (an observation not necessarily a criticism).

I'm not a fan of Lang Lang as a pianist but he's done a lot in education/raising the profile of pianists so I respect him for that. Pogorelich I liked more when he was younger. I recently heard his Petrushka from I think the 2010s? And the politest thing I can say is the Emperor's new clothes. It's a ballet. Who could dance to that performance?

[gasplamey]

Rather than comment this on latg's thread, I'll comment it here.
Le Festin D'esope sucks.

Really, all of Alkan sucks.

[dizzyfingers]

Rather than comment this on latg's thread, I'll comment it here.
Le Festin D'esope sucks.

Really, all of Alkan sucks.

Actually I think that's the popular opinion - -

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Rather than comment this on latg's thread, I'll comment it here.
Le Festin D'esope sucks.

Really, all of Alkan sucks.

Actually I think that's the popular opinion - -

Are you insane?
It is certainly not the popular opinion among those who know about Alkan.
And just because he isn't well-known doesn't mean he's terrible.

[transitional]

If I look up a random Alkan, chances are I won't like it, but I won't hate it like Mereaux, who feels like the romantic period version of a random Musescore composer.

I do like some Alkan pieces though, like Les Quatre Ages.

[dizzyfingers]

Are you insane?

The unpopular vote is - No !

[pianistavt]

Are you insane?
It is certainly not the popular opinion among those who know about Alkan.
And just because he isn't well-known doesn't mean he's terrible.

Alkan is known by serious pianists.  He's not known by the concert going public because pianists opt not to program him.  Pianists opt not to program him because ... ?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Alkan is known by most who seriously explore classical piano.  He's not known by the concert going public because pianists opt not to program him.  Pianists opt not to program him because ... ??

Even if he was popular amongst pianists Alkan doesn’t make money.  Standard rep makes money

[pianistavt]

Even if he was popular amongst pianists Alkan doesn’t make money.  Standard rep makes money

That's certainly true of the symphony orchestras but less so for the soloist - - it's more about the musician.  Marc Andre Hamelin, is the perfect example.  And here's a recent tour program by Yuja Wang:
Beethoven: Piano Sonata No. 18 in E-flat major, Op. 31 No. 3
Scriabin: Piano Sonata No. 3 in F-sharp minor, Op. 23
Ligeti: Étude No. 4 "Fanfares"
Kapustin: Variations Op. 41
Bach/Busoni: Chaconne in D minor
Prokofiev: Piano Sonata No. 8 in B-flat major, Op. 84

Programming Alkan is difficult though ....

[transitional]

Interesting! Glad to see that so many mainstream pianists are bringing more contemporary repertoire onto the stage. Many people say MAH plays obscure repertoire, but a lot of it could be standard repertoire if it wasn't so difficult for everyone else. I think this is a problem with big names in contemporary music - there isn't much for students to learn that I can think of, besides a little bit of Bagatelles and other smaller pieces.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

That's certainly true of the symphony orchestras but less so for the soloist - - it's more about the musician.  Marc Andre Hamelin, is the perfect example.  And here's a recent tour program by Yuja Wang:
Beethoven: Piano Sonata No. 18 in E-flat major, Op. 31 No. 3
Scriabin: Piano Sonata No. 3 in F-sharp minor, Op. 23
Ligeti: Étude No. 4 "Fanfares"
Kapustin: Variations Op. 41
Bach/Busoni: Chaconne in D minor
Prokofiev: Piano Sonata No. 8 in B-flat major, Op. 84

Programming Alkan is difficult though ....

I agree a little bit I think less for the soloist but not by much.  Hamelin and Wang will sell out no matter what cause they’re brand name so they can play whatever they want.  The rest of the working pianist landscape can’t do that if they wanna be invited to play again and not do recitals for 200 dollars every three months lol

And yeah the fact that Alkan so high maintainence makes him a financial waste of time to learn unless you’re brand name

[dizzyfingers]

I agree a little bit I think less for the soloist but not by much.  Hamelin and Wang will sell out no matter what cause they’re brand name so they can play whatever they want.  The rest of the working pianist landscape can’t do that if they wanna be invited to play again and not do recitals for 200 dollars every three months lol

And yeah the fact that Alkan so high maintainence makes him a financial waste of time to learn unless you’re brand name

Is your life like this?

&t=505s

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Is your life like this?

&t=505s

Eh kinda.  I don’t have an agent.  I’ve been approached by a big one a little over a year ago after concert but when I tried messaging her she didn’t respond.  Everything he says about agencies is true though.  I know some people who have gone through some of the things he’s said.

It’s a lot of traveling and never any time to practice.  I don’t remember the last time I performed in tip top shape lol.  But it kinda doesn’t matter cause your average artistic director (the only people who matter) can’t tell the difference between you at 100% vs 70%. 

The fee break down eeeeeeh.  Sort of that depends on the organization.  And the amount of hours you need to practice eeeeh also depends.  Sometimes you show up and rehearse and perform with the orchestra the next day. 

Only netting 1300 for soloing with orchestra is terrible.  However all the times I’ve played in Europe I get paid much less than in the US so that makes sense.  In the US my fee doesn’t include travel and living situations.  Sometimes they’ll pay for my food as well.  So if I ask for 3 I’m getting 3 straight up.  Europe does take a lot out of your initial fee.

[transitional]

Ravel Bolero is actually good and gets better the more you listen to it. It also works best at .75 speed, which clocks to ~17 minutes like Ravel intended.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Amending my opinion from earlier this year:
They should get rid of ALL competitions all together

[klavieronin]

Amending my opinion from earlier this year:
They should get rid of ALL competitions all together

I don't pay much attention to competitions either but I would like to see piano duels make a comeback.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I don't pay much attention to competitions either but I would like to see piano duels make a comeback.

You mean like this?

i=Zo8rLL276xPoQA9l

It’s piano and organ but we be trading all the time in the BAM scene

[klavieronin]

You mean like this?
It’s piano and organ but we be trading all the time in the BAM scene

I was actually think about duels like the famous Liszt vs. Thalberg duel but that video was freak'n awesome! Mad, mad skills!

[thorn]

I'd also prefer piano duels. Sure they probably have more of a dick measuring vibe than competitions but they're also more free and improvisation-based. Competitions these days are just which nepo kid can play the same old pieces to an adjudicating panel of their own teachers.

[themeandvariation]

You mean like this?

It’s piano and organ but we be trading all the time in the BAM scene

certainly shakes off the dead skin. Great round-robin relay! It's a pleasure to see such sharp ears along with technical ease. An empowering antidote for these times.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Okay IVE HAD IT 😡

NO MORE will I put up with people disrespecting my mans lang lang

He’s been performing when since he was 5, recorded and toured rach 3 when he was 18, and used to do like 150 concerts a year.  Yeah he’s been injured, but I’d take an injury like that if that means I get to have a quarter of the career he’s had

All that crazy theatrical stuff he does who cares he’s earned that sh*t.  He’s done more for classical music than the entire Juilliard faculty.  Or Curtis.  Or whatever school idgaf pick one.

[transitional]

Pretty much completely agree. But I think that all the Curtis faculty have done as much as Lang Lang.

He's not my favorite pianist, but he's one of my favorite living pianists. (With Sokolov, Uchida, etc.)

[dizzyfingers]

Okay IVE HAD IT 😡

NO MORE will I put up with people disrespecting my mans lang lang

He’s been performing when since he was 5, recorded and toured rach 3 when he was 18, and used to do like 150 concerts a year.  Yeah he’s been injured, but I’d take an injury like that if that means I get to have a quarter of the career he’s had

All that crazy theatrical stuff he does who cares he’s earned that sh*t.  He’s done more for classical music than the entire Juilliard faculty.  Or Curtis.  Or whatever school idgaf pick one.

... finally a good defense of Lang Lang
... the first I've ever heard

[ned174849]

Medtner > rachmaninoff 

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Medtner > rachmaninoff 

Honestly I don't like Rachmaninoff that much, and I much prefer the (admittedly only one lmao) Medtner I've heard over Rach's work.

In case anyone's wondering, that one Medtner work that I've listened to is the Night Wind Sonata (which is probably one of my favorite piano sonatas), and writing this post has made me realize just how much I need to listen to more Medtner.

[ned174849]

Honestly I don't like Rachmaninoff that much, and I much prefer the (admittedly only one lmao) Medtner I've heard over Rach's work.

In case anyone's wondering, that one Medtner work that I've listened to is the Night Wind Sonata, and writing this post has made me realize just how much I need to listen to more Medtner.

Couldn’t agree with you more. The more I listen to Rach, the more I don’t care for his music.
For Medtner might I suggest the following:
His sonata Romantica op 53 no 1
Piano Sonata op 30
Piano Sonata op 22 (Gilels has a good recording)
His sonata triad op 11 (all three are incredible)
I’d also recommend his three cycles of forgetten melodies (op 38, 39, 40) which include the sonata tragic as well as the famous sonata reminescenes. All of his fairy tails are worth checking out as well.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Couldn’t agree with you more. The more I listen to Rach, the more I don’t care for his music.
For Medtner might I suggest the following:
His sonata Romantica op 53 no 1
Piano Sonata op 30
Piano Sonata op 22 (Gilels has a good recording)
His sonata triad op 11 (all three are incredible)
I’d also recommend his three cycles of forgetten melodies (op 38, 39, 40) which include the sonata tragic as well as the famous sonata reminescenes. All of his fairy tails are worth checking out as well.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[dizzyfingers]

Anyway, leaving Mozart aside I don't know how unpopular this opinion is but the idea of the "three Bs" has never worked for me.  Bach and Beethoven I don't question. But it's very difficult to pinpoint a Romantic composer who was on that level. From a purely pianistic perspective I'd go with Liszt because regardless of subjective taste, he was involved with the development of the modern piano and the compositional styles of the 20th c. big guns, France and Russia. But if you look outside 'just' piano for a composer that impacted music on a holistic level to the extent of Bach and Beethoven? To me the Romantic composers just elevated late Beethoven to longer forms, greater technical feats, and so on. To me you have to look at the 20th c. to find the same kind of innovation on a fundamental level- Debussy perhaps.

Regarding:  "Romantic composers just elevated late Beethoven to longer forms, greater technical feats, and so on."  This could be your unpopular opinion.  Some have argued that the romantic era in music is a footnote to Beethoven, but it's a hard argument to win.

Certainly Beethoven's revolutionary, push-the-limits spirit heralded the romantic movement, but Beethoven's music is expositorial, extroverted, even at his most personal, he's saying "I want you to listen to this".  The romantic spirit reversed this.  "I want to listen to this."  That's why the piano became such a primary force in 19th century music, it's the perfect instrument for mining the inner world, or to share his inner world with intimates.  Eventually that approach successfully made it to the concert stage, thanks to Liszt, which changed this impetus.

[thorn]

So that post was a year ago and I don't think I'd necessarily change my main point- that pre-Classical and Romantic music have more in common than Romantic and modern music (defining 'modern' as things like Impressionism, modernism, jazz, serialism etc, not Romantic styles written after 1900). But where I originally argued that in the case of piano repertoire this was down to Liszt's innovations and their influence on 20th c. composers, I now see it as coming from how much the world opened up- meaning composers were now regularly exposed to music from outside of Europe. Only someone who heard gamelan could have written like Debussy and Ravel, likewise Ravel's postwar style would not exist without jazz.

But yes, I wouldn't say "Romantic composers just elevated late Beethoven" anymore. I don't think generic statements are helpful in any discussion. Likewise I wouldn't say Beethoven was always extroverted- eg. the slow movement of Hammerklavier is so powerful because it's a moment of introspection in what is otherwise an extroverted work.

And lastly, I don't believe the piano recital came from introspection. It came from 19th century consumerism- a soloist is less expensive than an orchestra, but you sell the same amount of tickets so there's more profit. This is the seed that grew into celebrity pianists, piano competitions, standard repertoire, and so on.