Unpopular Opinions

[liszt-and-the-galops]

My unpopular opinion: Musicality is an excuse, or soft way of saying, "weak technique"

Definitely disagree. As an example, IMO Hamelin almost never has good musicality, but he unquestionably has some of the best technique out of anyone alive.

A much more objective case of this is Yi-Chung Huang/LDF.

[thalbergmad]

Definitely disagree. As an example, IMO Hamelin almost never has good musicality, but he unquestionably has some of the best technique out of anyone alive.

A much more objective case of this is Yi-Chung Huang/LDF.

Hamelin completely destroyed the Rubinstein 4th piano concerto with a technically perfect but musically boring performance.
Same with Reger/Telemann.
Horrid.
Thal

[gasplamey]

IMO Hamelin almost never has good musicality,

I think yhou wsere listening to the bwrong pioainsit.

[thalbergmad]

Anyone who listens to Hamelin is listening to the wrong pianist.
He should of stuck to Sorabji where it doesn't matter if you play like trash, as nobody will notice.
Thal

[dizzyfingers]

Anyone who listens to Hamelin is listening to the wrong pianist.
He should of stuck to Sorabji where it doesn't matter if you play like trash, as nobody will notice.
Thal

It's true - in my listening experience, Hamelin is sometimes unfocused.  I think the issue with him is that, given his talents and skills and his interest, he goes very broadly across repertoire and does not go deeply, he has played a huge volume of fringe repertoire and it seems he approaches it like a sight reader - "what's this piece all about" - and once he's figured it out he moves on.  Without doubt he can play with focus on the architecture and musical elements, but it's not a bedrock feature of his playing.

[benbspiano]

I think Hamelin often not diving too deeply into the works he records/performs is right on the mark. It makes sense that this approach would be true considering how insanely huge the amount of music he has recorded is. I don't think that he has any innate lack of musicality in his playing, it just can often sound a little shallow. I think his playing is generally pretty inspired on his Ornstein album (I wonder if he had a different recording engineer too, or if he really just was approaching things different for that record, as his dynamics sound more extreme and with more richness too).

[brogers70]

Yes, a vulnerable opinion (logically), for sure. 

Here are some angles on musicality / technique:
A piece can be played with strong technique and strong musicality.  Bingo!
A piece can be played with strong technique but thin on musicality - the effect may be convincing to the plebian listener but not to the experienced listener.
Some pieces can be played with okay (but only okay) technique and strong musicality, and the over all effect is convincing because the piece's musicality is the main focus.
Some pieces played with just okay technique and good musicality are not convincing because technique is such an important element of the piece.
Need we mention okay technique and okay musicality?  Probably since that's most students and most amateur pianists.  If they're humble about it, it's okay, if they have delusions about their abilities, it's annoying.

As an amateur whose technique is not as good as my musicality, which itself is still in the amateur range, I'd say that even OK technique and pretty good musicality can be very moving to a small audience in a small setting. I play house recitals and in small venues like churches and nursing homes. I've had people tell me, in tears that such and such a piece brought back their whole childhood, that now they have beautiful sounds stuck in their heads, that they felt "heard" by Janacek because of how I played his "So unutterably Anxious." Great music is great, so great that it can shine even through amateur technique. If you love the music and have enough technique that the little audience is not constantly anxious that you're going to fail and be embarrassed, and enough musicality that the beauty of the music is perceptible, it's worth it. I like to hear other amateurs play, too. Sometimes a good amateur in a small setting is a more intense experience than one of the greats in a big hall.

[dizzyfingers]

As an amateur whose technique is not as good as my musicality, which itself is still in the amateur range, I'd say that even OK technique and pretty good musicality can be very moving to a small audience in a small setting. I play house recitals and in small venues like churches and nursing homes. I've had people tell me, in tears that such and such a piece brought back their whole childhood, that now they have beautiful sounds stuck in their heads, that they felt "heard" by Janacek because of how I played his "So unutterably Anxious." Great music is great, so great that it can shine even through amateur technique. If you love the music and have enough technique that the little audience is not constantly anxious that you're going to fail and be embarrassed, and enough musicality that the beauty of the music is perceptible, it's worth it. I like to hear other amateurs play, too. Sometimes a good amateur in a small setting is a more intense experience than one of the greats in a big hall.

If that's your experience - - - great!   Nursing Home residents are the best audiences ever - - -  ;-)

I've rarely heard an adult amateur who moved me, but I suppose I'm a very critical listener, even subconsciously.  Some talented students who are quite talented and on their way to a high level of accomplishment have moved me.

[ash120]

As an amateur whose technique is not as good as my musicality, which itself is still in the amateur range, I'd say that even OK technique and pretty good musicality can be very moving to a small audience in a small setting. I play house recitals and in small venues like churches and nursing homes. I've had people tell me, in tears that such and such a piece brought back their whole childhood, that now they have beautiful sounds stuck in their heads, that they felt "heard" by Janacek because of how I played his "So unutterably Anxious." Great music is great, so great that it can shine even through amateur technique. If you love the music and have enough technique that the little audience is not constantly anxious that you're going to fail and be embarrassed, and enough musicality that the beauty of the music is perceptible, it's worth it. I like to hear other amateurs play, too. Sometimes a good amateur in a small setting is a more intense experience than one of the greats in a big hall.

I find value in what Dizzyfingers and Liszt n the galops said, for sure. Although in my experience, my teacher (who I have now had for a year) frequently tells me that I'm very musical, yes, but the part which I remember verbatim was when she told me that my "technique is really, really weak" (which I think is ingrained in my brain atp, and so now I know that my technique will always be lagging n behind, much to my chagrin) and that I shouldn't focus too much on technique-heavy pieces because expressive, musical pieces (e.g. Chopin nocturnes) would show me off in the best light in competitions, and such. Which I completely agree with her, she's right. Of course. But I guess for the longest time ever, I was pissed at myself (and my prior teachers from years ago) for not paying importance to technique. I do get jealous of my friends who have flawless technique, regardless if they have even an iota of musicality or not. The reason for this (or I guess I shouldn't say reason because correlation doesn't equal causation) is my taste in music is mostly percussive, rhythmic, contemporary fast pieces (tarantellas, Prokofiev) or complex, slightly dissonant minor (or not purely major) keys (Scriabin, Ravel)...I don't enjoy listening to Chopin nocturnes at all. I always remembered hearing my friend play (who is very good with contemporary music but sucks at expressive Romantic music) and thinking, "You get to play Prokofiev's Toccata?! I wish I could play it! You don't even like the piece as much as I do!" (We have the same piano teacher lol) Which I know is the wrong mindset...but...
I guess we always want what we can't have!

Oh I remember why I quoted you, sorry...totally forgot to reply to you and instead ended up yapping about myself
Recently I have started playing in senior living homes, and I actually enjoy it quite a bit, and here, I actually can happily play expressive, "musical" pieces, but they are still always a little complex technically.  But it's a nice opportunity to gain low-stakes performing experience while practicing some of my competition pieces (the tamer ones, of course.). I do like hearing good amateur pianists play from time to time as opposed to constantly hearing professionals in prestigious concert halls all the time. I love how you said musicality can touch hearts of small settings. Also by in house recitals, you mean you invite people to your house for gatherings/parties then play for everyone? Although in my case, in senior living homes, the residents (audience) just sit there for the performance and then clap a little bit after without saying anything...I'm trying to think of ways to get them more involved...any suggestions?

[brogers70]

Also by in house recitals, you mean you invite people to your house for gatherings/parties then play for everyone? Although in my case, in senior living homes, the residents (audience) just sit there for the performance and then clap a little bit after without saying anything...I'm trying to think of ways to get them more involved...any suggestions?

Yes, I mean I invite 15-20 people to my house, play an hour program, and then have some wine and snacks. I've played at the nursing home in my small town. Usually out of 10-15 people listening there are one or two who are with it enough to tell me they used to play an instrument or they liked it. I really just play there to warm up for the house recital in an even lower stakes setting. The nursing home residents do respond to people doing sing alongs of golden oldies and things like that, but that's not my thing. Still, if you know that kind of music they really like it. Before recordings there were a lot of good amateur musicians playing for friends and sharing music that way.  A local chamber music group did a program consisting entirely or arrangements of symphonic pieces (e.g. Beethoven's Fourth Symphony, a Mozart piano concerto) for small groups, like a piano trio or quartet; these arrangements were made and sold in the 19th century for amateurs to play at home as a way to hear the pieces when there was no concert performance nearby. And they were not trivially easy either. There were some good amateurs back then. Recordings are great, obviously, but they have put something of a damper on that kind of culture.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

On the topic of Hamelin, I will say that I love his one recording of Chaminade, though perhaps it's more that the piece is fantastic than Hamelin's playing of it? I haven't heard any other recordings of this piece.

Apparently he also gave a concert involving a different Chaminade piece recently (one that I've never heard of), Pas de Cymbales. https://www.medici.tv/en/concerts/marc-andre-hamelin-charles-richard-hamelin-salle-bourgie-2026

It's nice that Chaminade is getting more recognition, though I don't know why her larger-scale works (Op. 21 Sonata and Op. 40 Concertstück in particular) aren't getting much attention. Op. 40 in particular is one of my favorite piano concerti.

Two piano version:

[dizzyfingers]

...
But I guess for the longest time ever, I was pissed at myself (and my prior teachers from years ago) for not paying importance to technique. I do get jealous of my friends who have flawless technique, regardless if they have even an iota of musicality or not. The reason for this is my taste in music is mostly percussive, rhythmic, contemporary fast pieces (tarantellas, Prokofiev) or complex, slightly dissonant minor (or not purely major) keys (Scriabin, Ravel)...I don't enjoy listening to Chopin nocturnes at all. I always remembered hearing my friend play (who is very good with contemporary music but sucks at expressive Romantic music) and thinking, "You get to play Prokofiev's Toccata?! I wish I could play it! You don't even like the piece as much as I do!" (We have the same piano teacher lol) Which I know is the wrong mindset...but...
I guess we always want what we can't have!

I have the same taste in music as you.  And I have great respect for Chopin Nocturnes, however many amateurs play them, because they are technically accessible, but they demand heightened sensitivity to tone, dynamic and phrase - and most amateurs play them with inattentive crudeness.

You don't have to play Prokofiev (or Ravel) toccata to enjoy this type of music, that piece is exceptionally difficult, there's plenty of other Scriabin, Prokofiev, Bartok, Ravel, Kachaturian, Ginastera, Poulenc  pieces for you to explore.  What pieces in this genre have you played?

Also, I assume you are working on building your technique every day - - there's no excuse not to.

[ash120]

I have the same taste in music as you.  And I have great respect for Chopin Nocturnes, however many amateurs play them, because they are technically accessible, but they demand heightened sensitivity to tone, dynamic and phrase - and most amateurs play them with inattentive crudeness.

You don't have to play Prokofiev (or Ravel) toccata to enjoy this type of music, that piece is exceptionally difficult, there's plenty of other Scriabin, Prokofiev, Bartok, Ravel, Kachaturian, Ginastera, Poulenc  pieces for you to explore.  What pieces in this genre have you played?

Also, I assume you are working on building your technique every day - - there's no excuse not to.

Currently my pieces are Ravel Jeux d'eau (which has so much opportunity for being musical), Prokofiev Suggestion Diabolique, and Scriabin's Op. 11 preludes - No. 11 n No. 14. I do love Scriabin's impromptu op. 12 (no. 2) and his heavy, passionate etudes...And I love dark passionate music! )
What are your personal favorite pieces/artists in this genre?
Yes, for technique, I do Russian scale/arp sets in different keys every week. But not daily...what are some ways you build your technique?

[dizzyfingers]

What are your personal favorite pieces/artists in this genre?
Yes, for technique, I do Russian scale/arp sets in different keys every week. But not daily...what are some ways you build your technique?

I spent years practicing scales, got quite good at them. Arpeggios too but not as much as scales.  Octave scales too.  For technique, now, since I don't like exercises, I mostly play etudes - Czerny, Moskowski op 72 and Chopin. I will tackle Prokofiev's etudes eventually.

I practiced and performed Jeu d'eau years ago, no Ravel since then, I'm thinking of looking at the Toccata.  I'm always working on a couple Prokofiev pieces, the easier ones - Vision Fugitives, Romeo and Juliet, sonata 5 and 3 (which aren't so easy!).  It takes (me) a while to learn Prokofiev.  I also play plenty of Beethoven, Chopin, Brahms.