How to self teach good piano technique?

[yuvismahi2]

I've been trying to learn from online sources, I've managed to learn some scales and basic songs but yesterday I managed to hurt my left hand while playing scales, so it's time to learn good technique. Can you guys please help me out? to be honest, I can't even define a good technique, what is it? and how should I practice in order to archive such thing? Thanks and sorry for my mistakes, I'm still learning english!

[timothy42b]

I've been trying to learn from online sources, I've managed to learn some scales and basic songs but yesterday I managed to hurt my left hand while playing scales, so it's time to learn good technique. Can you guys please help me out? to be honest, I can't even define a good technique, what is it? and how should I practice in order to archive such thing? Thanks and sorry for my mistakes, I'm still learning english!

It would be faster and more efficient with a teacher.  It may not be completely possible without a teacher.

But if you have no choice, here's what I would suggest. 

Watch video of good players.  Do this a lot.  Really a lot.

Video yourself playing and compare.  Do this a lot.  Really a lot.  A phone is good enough, you don't need to capture tone in detail. 

Share the videos with other players and ask if they will critique.  Make sure the videos contain your posture and motions, especially the hands. 

Some of technique is motions and some is choice of fingerings.  Ask for help. 

[keypeg]

Look up PianoOlogist.  Find the series where he teaches how to use the body at the piano at a fundamental level (there are about 40 small exercises) and DO what he says, over a number of days or weeks, gradually.  Stop scales.  They are not "beginner things" because of what is involved. 

[timothy42b]

  Stop scales.  They are not "beginner things" because of what is involved.

The famous pedagogue Abby Whiteside

https://www.amazon.com/Abby-Whiteside-Piano-Playing-Indispensables-ebook/dp/B001ULCEZM

said scales are not for beginners, they need to be more advanced before there is any benefit.

[j_tour]

The famous pedagogue Abby Whiteside [clip unneeded information] said scales are not for beginners, they need to be more advanced before there is any benefit.

That's good.

Yes, using scales as an abstraction, or as elements to be used in improvisation, for example, is indeed IMHO not for a beginning student.  Yes, the beginner should know all of the correct fingerings, in all keys, but that doesn't begin to encompass how scales are used in compositions or in improvisation.

There's a world of difference between learning material which employs scalar fragments, in thirds, sixths, or at the octave, or even at the unison in either hand, and becoming an adept technician at isolating that material and extending it.

That's what I've found, anyway:  running scales in any configuration, in an ad hoc fashion, is pretty much it's own technique, which has many applications, as one can see just by a brief look at the piano literature, but IMHO it's not an end in itself unless one is using the material in improvising. 

So, you can play a lot of music that uses a lot of scalar passages, and still not be a master of running scales in an academic fashion.

Depends on what you want:  play repertoire,  pass examinations, or be a monster improv person. 

I'd say, choose one of those, and do that.

[timothy42b]

So, you can play a lot of music that uses a lot of scalar passages, and still not be a master of running scales in an academic fashion.

Yes, particularly in the standard variations like Hands Together Contrary Motion 4 octaves etc. In at least 24 keys at tempo. 

Abby's opinion was that beginners were not ready for scales.  You'd have to read her book to get the full explanation, but that's not a bad idea anyway.  I'm a fan, not everybody is though.

Gieseking and Leimer's book used scales for teaching something specific:  how to listen to yourself, a skill that is underappreciated and the fundamental for a lot of learning.  Because that was the purpose of scales, they recommended hand separate, slow, and with careful attention to strict evenness of tone and strict evenness of rhythm.  That makes sense to me also. 

[stephenv]

May I suggest two books of technical exercises that might help and also prevent you from injury:   Thinking Fingers Vol. 1  And Vol. 2  Guy Maier and Herbert Bradshaw.   The instructions are plain and if you follow them carefully you can gain facility.   These are available on Amazon.  Get Vol. 1 for certain.  It contains basic finger exercises....Including Octaves.  One other book:  The Piano Teacher's Companion  a selection of writings by  Guy Maier.   Mr. Maier passed away in the 1950's but his writings pass on the spirit of his teaching.  Best of luck in your persuit of making music

[anacrusis]

I would mainly advice against self teaching technique. It'll be much quicker and painless with good instruction from somebody who has already solved the problem. My current technique is mostly self taught, and while I feel I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel it took me falling on my face and failing repeatedly for almost ten years to get to that point. If I could go back and start over, I would spend some of that time just looking for a teacher who is very skilled at teaching the specifics of good piano technique. Your mileage may vary.

[perfect_pitch]

I don't know how this one slipped by me, but this is a copy & paste from a 3 year old Reddit thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/6q0amp/how_to_self_teach_good_piano_technique/

I've already reported the initial post to the almighty Nils.

[ranjit]

 

[chechig]

As an adult student, first on my own, later with a teacher, I think that it's not possible to teach oneself something you don't know how it works. Things I was struggling with for days or weeks, my teacher gave me tips, exercises etc and in five minutes it was learnt and undersood. If you don't do thing the right way,you can easily hurt yourself or even make things more difficult than they really are. So, if possible, get a teacher, even just for some sole lessons, just to help you understand how this woks.

[ranjit]

As an adult student, first on my own, later with a teacher, I think that it's not possible to teach oneself something you don't know how it works.

I mean, it is possible if you use resources available online (books, videos, etc.) and are honest with yourself. I have self-taught and have an okay technique -- I can play stuff like Chopin etudes without pain or injury, not performance ready I might add, but my technique is still not really solid. The key is to videotape yourself, watch yourself in a mirror, or look at your hands and see if their movement "looks" right. If you watch a number of concert pianists, you will observe the ease with which they play the keyboard. When you're playing and do not achieve that ease, you will *know* -- you see that your hands look different and don't seem to be producing sounds effectively. You should then try to nail down the differences, and watch videos/read books/analyze and experiment until you fix it.

People keep recommending teachers, but even with a teacher, you will usually need to experiment on your own and figure out strategies if you want to advance properly. Most teachers don't teach memorization, for example, and I had to use my previous experience with it to devise strategies for myself. Similarly, many teachers I encountered didn't truly teach technique, so I had to tell them if something felt uncomfortable, because they did not observe it. Teachers are useful and necessary, but not all they're cranked up to be.

[dogperson]

Ranjit
Maybe I’m wrong, but haven’t you only had one teacher as an adult and one earlier in life for a few months?   If I have remembered this history wrong, my apologies.  I think that number is too small to draw generalizations about what most teachers do and do not teach in terms of technique and experimentation.  My personal experience does not match your post at all. Technique and experimentation are strongly stressed and taught. 

[ranjit]

I have also interacted with a lot of teachers online, and very few of them have struck me as being good.

I think my current teacher is good and does observe and teach well. However, he is quite literally one of the best in the city, and most students would not be learning from such a teacher. I learned more about technique and practice methods from Graham Fitch, Josh Wright, bernhard, C. Chang, etc. than from the other teachers, by and large. I promised myself that I would get a teacher once I could attempt Chopin etudes, and I'm happy with my decision. Which is why I keep saying that, yes, if you want to reach the very top level, get a really good teacher (typically who is at a level to teach conservatory students). However, many people, can not afford or access such teachers, and I was one of them for several years. That is why I keep saying that the limitations aren't as bad as people make them out to be, if you can learn in the way I mention while being cognizant of what you're doing at the piano. Perhaps not everyone has the level of introspection needed to honestly critique their own performances to improve, and read and understand technique and music theory -- in that case, I am talking to the significant minority of people who can.

As to the level of technique I was able to achieve, my teachers have told me that it's similar to what a child would achieve if they were not exposed to proper technical instruction with an good teacher, and I thought that was a good way to put it. It's not as good as the conservatory students I've seen who have been practicing for hours each day since they were young, that's for sure, and I think I know where the deficiencies lie. But I can play better than most people I encounter who aren't on a professional track to becoming a pianist, regardless of the age they started and whether or not they had a teacher.

So, it's possible to learn technique on your own, and many teachers will not be able to teach you better technique than what you can learn from videos by Graham Fitch, etc. You will not acquire a virtuoso technique, but you wouldn't acquire that with a subpar teacher either, mostly. That's been my experience.

[chechig]

I just wanted to share my experience. I don't mean that it's the only and the right one, it's just mine. In a way we can compare learning piano with learning a lenguage.
Of course you can teach yourself grammar, or writting after hours and hours of research, but when it comes to pronuntiation or everyday vocabulary and expressions, things change. Don't you think that with a teacher the road will be shorter an easier?

[ranjit]

I mean, if we're drawing an analogy to language here, wouldn't native language immersion be better? And to my mind, that means listening to classical performances.

Edit: if we're talking about technique, how does the language analogy hold in the first place?

[chechig]

I'm not trying to convince anyone, I just wanted to share my own experience. I understand you don't like it al all, and you don't agree at all. Good luck with teaching yourself something you don't know.

[ranjit]

I never said I didn't agree with you. I only asked you why you thought so.

[chechig]

Playing piano it's not only having a good technique, that's why I compared it with learning a new lenguage. When you learn a foreign lenguage you don't learn only grammar, you need different skills, and time and patience bla bla bla...
If you have a good teacher, he will teach you not only technique but many other things. Learning to play piano is difficult enough, so there is no need in making it harder
Sorry if I misunderstood you.
I know a bunch of adult students. A big number of them say it was a mistake trying to learn on their own, they got bad habits which are difficult to get rid of

[brogers70]

Playing piano it's not only having a good technique, that's why I compared it with learning a new lenguage. When you learn a foreign lenguage you don't learn only grammar, you need different skills, and time and patience bla bla bla...
If you have a good teacher, he will teach you not only technique but many other things. Learning to play piano is difficult enough, so there is no need in making it harder
Sorry if I misunderstood you.
I know a bunch of adult students. A big number of them say it was a mistake trying to learn on their own, they got bad habits which are difficult to get rid of

A good teacher is great. I agree with Ranjit, though, that there are a lot of not so good teachers out there. I've had seven teachers in my lifetime. One was good, but still we eventually ended up in a rut after 8 years because her interests (teaching people who had had more or less traumatic musical pasts) didn't really line up with my situation. I had one other pretty good teacher, and five not very good at all teachers - the sort whose main comments were along the lines of - "you made some mistakes in that section. Better practice it." I've found some on-line teachers, like Josh Wright and Graham Fitch, to be extremely helpful for my technique, even though they aren't looking at me play and critiquing it. So I'd love to find a good teacher, and I'll start looking again once we're all vaccinated. Sometimes, though, you're on your own. And even with a good teacher you're often on your own. At most, 5% or less of the time I'm playing the piano my teacher would be present, so it's always on the student to figure it all out, with or without some pointers from the teacher.

[lelle]

A good teacher is great. I agree with Ranjit, though, that there are a lot of not so good teachers out there. I've had seven teachers in my lifetime. One was good, but still we eventually ended up in a rut after 8 years because her interests (teaching people who had had more or less traumatic musical pasts) didn't really line up with my situation. I had one other pretty good teacher, and five not very good at all teachers - the sort whose main comments were along the lines of - "you made some mistakes in that section. Better practice it." I've found some on-line teachers, like Josh Wright and Graham Fitch, to be extremely helpful for my technique, even though they aren't looking at me play and critiquing it. So I'd love to find a good teacher, and I'll start looking again once we're all vaccinated. Sometimes, though, you're on your own. And even with a good teacher you're often on your own. At most, 5% or less of the time I'm playing the piano my teacher would be present, so it's always on the student to figure it all out, with or without some pointers from the teacher.

I would argue though that a good teacher can give very good pointers and guide the process in a well-graded manner, so that the student does not really have to figure out much on the mechanical end. Far from every teacher can teach that way though, you really need to know how.

[ranjit]

I would argue though that a good teacher can give very good pointers and guide the process in a well-graded manner, so that the student does not really have to figure out much on the mechanical end. Far from every teacher can teach that way though, you really need to know how.

I think you are sort of right. But I think it is very important to attempt to problem solve on your own. I feel that is one of the ways in which things are truly understood. Right now I feel like I have such a teacher -- however, I still find my previous experience with teaching myself technique to be extremely useful as I can often relate things back and even come up with my own insights. It gives me a kind of confidence about attempting new, difficult repertoire, which I sadly find lacking in a lot of piano students ("oh I could never play Liszt and have never tried"), whereas I look at their hands and just see certain movements which they might need to learn but which certainly seem possible if they try them out for a few weeks.

[brogers70]

I would argue though that a good teacher can give very good pointers and guide the process in a well-graded manner, so that the student does not really have to figure out much on the mechanical end. Far from every teacher can teach that way though, you really need to know how.

No doubt, a good teacher is a big help. I guess it depends on what you mean by figuring things out on the mechanical end. For me, no matter how clear an explanation or a demonstration a teacher gives, I still need to work out how to reproduce the motions, what it feels like when done right, what sort of feedback loop between listening and proprioception I need have in order to do the technique correctly.

And then, in any particular passage, there's maybe need for more or less adduction or abduction at the wrist, more or less curved fingers, more or less forearm rotation, more or less arm weight, more or less finger action; most of the time you just have to figure out what works best by yourself - a teacher can help with some particularly difficult spot, but I think you really integrate the technique by confronting and solving all those micro-problems on your own. That's what I mean by figuring it out myself.

[chomaninoff1]

check out cedarville music on youtube.

The channel is run by a professor of piano performance. He has created playlists all about technique, tone production, problems with tension etc.

One thing he often mentions is to not believe the lie of finger legato. That is, you don't need to hold down even note and make them connect. It is better to not stretch your fingers/hands.

[anacrusis]

One thing he often mentions is to not believe the lie of finger legato. That is, you don't need to hold down even note and make them connect. It is better to not stretch your fingers/hands.

I have to somewhat disagree with the premise here. You can simulate legato without physically binding the notes, but finger legato plus relaxation can help a lot psychologically if nothing else. Being physically glued to the keybed at all times and the feeling of unbroken connection with the instrument can help your body physically find what is needed to produce a good legato. But that does not mean you need to tense and strain with your hands to reach for notes. A foundational component of physical finger legato, as I have learned it, is specifically to NOT tense your fingers and wrists as you bind the notes together. If you stretch and strain and tense up you are not playing according to the principles of a true legato, you just think you are.

It is a problem today in many recordings I find on YouTube, that are made by modern pianists, that they lack a true legato. The notes in the phrases do not sound bound together into big gestures; there is a lack of connection. It's sort of quasi legato maybe, but not legatissimo, and it bothers me a lot. It makes it hard to listen to the recording.

[chomaninoff1]

You can simulate legato without physically binding the notes,

Yes, this is exactly what he says. You can make something sound legato w/o using finger legato.
And he doesn't say to never use finger legato. When the notes to be played are adjacent, finger legato is fine. He just stresses not to do finger legato during stretches between the pinky and third finger for example. Apparently many of his students come in with this incorrect technique, and I know I have done it in the past.

[brogers70]

I have to somewhat disagree with the premise here. You can simulate legato without physically binding the notes, but finger legato plus relaxation can help a lot psychologically if nothing else. Being physically glued to the keybed at all times and the feeling of unbroken connection with the instrument can help your body physically find what is needed to produce a good legato.

I had just heard Mortenson talking about not needing to do finger legato when I started learning Debussy's Sunken Cathedral. I thought the opening few measures was a perfect place to try making legato sound without legato fingering - the pedal is down anyway, and making legato fingering in the right hand seemed awkward and fussy. All you should have to do is match the sound of the new chord to the decay of the previous one. I worked on that for a couple of weeks and never got the sound that I liked. So I tried to relax and do a legato fingering , alternating 4 and 5 at the top of the RH chords and it sounded much better. There is just something psychologically helpful about connecting the notes with finger legato, when it's possible without tension, that somehow helps you match the new notes to the decay of the old ones. I really wanted to believe it was not necessary, but it certainly helped.

[lelle]

I had just heard Mortenson talking about not needing to do finger legato when I started learning Debussy's Sunken Cathedral. I thought the opening few measures was a perfect place to try making legato sound without legato fingering - the pedal is down anyway, and making legato fingering in the right hand seemed awkward and fussy. All you should have to do is match the sound of the new chord to the decay of the previous one. I worked on that for a couple of weeks and never got the sound that I liked. So I tried to relax and do a legato fingering , alternating 4 and 5 at the top of the RH chords and it sounded much better. There is just something psychologically helpful about connecting the notes with finger legato, when it's possible without tension, that somehow helps you match the new notes to the decay of the old ones. I really wanted to believe it was not necessary, but it certainly helped.

That's my experience as well. I've been very interested in how Cortot taught piano and one recurring thing in his pedagogy is to not always use the most practical or convenient fingering, but the fingering that helps you the most in realizing your musical intentions, even if there might be other fingerings that are technically easier. That includes things such as legato fingerings with changing fingerings even when it's not strictly necessary, changing fingers on slow repeated notes, or otherwise odd/non-obvious fingerings.

[quantum]

Reddit from 3 years ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/6q0amp/how_to_self_teach_good_piano_technique/

External links inserted in signature.

Reported.

[ranjit]

I had just heard Mortenson talking about not needing to do finger legato when I started learning Debussy's Sunken Cathedral. I thought the opening few measures was a perfect place to try making legato sound without legato fingering - the pedal is down anyway, and making legato fingering in the right hand seemed awkward and fussy. All you should have to do is match the sound of the new chord to the decay of the previous one. I worked on that for a couple of weeks and never got the sound that I liked. So I tried to relax and do a legato fingering , alternating 4 and 5 at the top of the RH chords and it sounded much better. There is just something psychologically helpful about connecting the notes with finger legato, when it's possible without tension, that somehow helps you match the new notes to the decay of the old ones. I really wanted to believe it was not necessary, but it certainly helped.

I used to try to do the same when it comes to achieving finger legato, and I would never achieve true legato. I now think that the point is that you need to press the keys with a specific acceleration (and hence velocity) in order to produce the desired sound. Keeping "in touch" with the instrument helps give you better control over that. Perhaps the reason is because the next finger can execute a movement which is very similar to the previous one, but differing ever so slightly in intensity. On the other hand, if the hand is moved away from the keyboard, you lose that relative reference frame, so you need to estimate the force you need to put in purely based on memory and instinct. While it's not impossible, it's much harder imo. That's my theory anyhow.

[obtuserecluse]

If you are willing to, I can give you some advice on skype/zoom/whatever. You don't have to pay, it's ok. I do this from time to time and I enjoy it, so am willing to do it for free if somebody's at the point of hurting themselves.
Let me know if you want to and we can discuss the method, etc. Cheers!

[ranjit]

I do this from time to time and I enjoy it, so am willing to do it for free if somebody's at the point of hurting themselves.

Thanks for the offer, but I don't see where I implied that I was at the point of hurting myself. Quite the opposite, actually.

[obtuserecluse]

It was for the OP. Sorry I didn't specify.

[ranjit]

The OP doesn't exist, just fyi. The post is copied from a 3 year old reddit post.

[obtuserecluse]

And how was I supposed to know that? Isn't it common sense that a reply to a thread should be associated with the poster's original statement?
Also, my comment could be easily linked to it, rather than yours. Anyways, all the best.

[obtuserecluse]

Ahaaa, I now see the rest of the thread. I'd better skim through the whole threads next time. Seems some people truly enjoy trolling.

[dogperson]

Deleted

[lelle]

I used to try to do the same when it comes to achieving finger legato, and I would never achieve true legato. I now think that the point is that you need to press the keys with a specific acceleration (and hence velocity) in order to produce the desired sound. Keeping "in touch" with the instrument helps give you better control over that. Perhaps the reason is because the next finger can execute a movement which is very similar to the previous one, but differing ever so slightly in intensity. On the other hand, if the hand is moved away from the keyboard, you lose that relative reference frame, so you need to estimate the force you need to put in purely based on memory and instinct. While it's not impossible, it's much harder imo. That's my theory anyhow.

This is my experience as well, for what it's worth.