Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 3 in C major (Opus 2 no 3)

[medtnerfan]

Hello everyone, for the past 3 months I was working on relearning this sonata by Beethoven to record a satisfying performance of it. I had learned it a year ago for an audition that was in February (I only played the 1st and 2nd movements in there), however I didn't pass, so I figured that this recording process would be the best way to improve. I highly recommend recording yourself and listening back critically, it's definitely one of the best ways to improve one's playing.

Here's the 1st movement, I will share the rest of the movements in the coming days. Any feedback is welcome. Thank you

[lowk-_-y]

Assertive playing with lots of good intentions. In the 2nd subject you achieve a lyricism that is very tastefully still Beethoven, no romantic indulgence here. Fully appreciated the strength of the many sforzandos that didn’t come across as too harsh

I haven’t played this sonata but friends of mine say it’s incredibly fiddly. Has to be one of the worst in terms of beginning a piece, I’d say like most things, your exposition was more confidently executed the second time but still whenever the starting phrase with thirds came it wasn’t as clear as it could be. What fingering do you use, the written one is quite difficult for me, I would start with 15 and then 24 15 for the semiquavers then 24 to 13 for beat 4.

0.14 - Lovely orchestral colour here, Lh triplets sometimes sounds a bit rushed, imagine a single bassoonist waiting for his solo moment, they’d look after those triplets as if their job depended on it. (Which it probably would) Think more lazy (in terms of timing not articulation) if that makes sense.

Subjective but from 0.35 after the fast scale down, the slurred thirds seem a bit heavy here. Is it not more of a playful character. Especially with the active Lh (which is very clean btw). If it’s lighter, the effect of the slurs can really come out.

Around 2.00 - You were quite consistent each time you repeated this section so clearly you had an idea but personally I wasn’t quite sure what it was. You create a space before the Lh G octave which sounds a little unnatural, maybe taking space before the Rh chord before it as well would fix this as it creates an overall rit, not just a single chord rit.

5.47 - These octaves, if you played separate hands you’d hear that the minims/tied crotchets are suspensions that are resolved by the crotchets that follow, sometimes you accent these resolutions. Yes they are staccato but surely still resolutions. This will make the sforzandos (or sforzandi?) stand out more.

I feel you could make a much bigger, more dramatic moment out of this A flat major chord out of nowhere, all the way from C major. This must have been a huge deal at the time, is it a big deal for you? If so definitely give it more dramatic time and definitely more arm//body weight.

My god, that is a beautifully clean cadenza :0 The pause before the recap, I feel you can take much more time here.

Well played. Also I envy your recording quality…very nice.

[medtnerfan]

Wow, thank you very much for your feedback, very detailed.

Yeah, the beginning is definitely extremely fiddly, I experimented with many fingerings before finally figuring out the best one for me that I used here.
I used 15  24-15-24-15  24 13, which happens to be a recommended alternative fingering in Schnabel's edition.

The triplet figure in the beginning can definitely sound better. For some reason that day, I just started rushing it. I think orchestral imagery will definitely help me stay focused while playing that section to give it's proper importance.

For the slurred thirds, I'll experiment with that idea.

In the part around 2:00 I was aiming for a directional dynamics (decrescendo when the line is going down, crescendo when the line is going up). The pause before the low G octave was a way to give emphasis to the note without making it too harsh, to hopefully still give the effect of a strong ff. But also I guess I could release it earlier (Beethoven does write a staccato for it, which I didn't follow, whoops) to give it a punch, I could hang on the chord before it (giving it the proper length of a quarter note and not releasing it earlier).

The octave section in the development section (5:47), I definitely agree with you, I regret not catching that. I was actually doing a similar thing at the end too (9:30), but luckily I caught it and I think I achieved proper phrasing there. I should have been focusing more when listening back to my practice recordings.

I need to exert more confidence when playing big ff chords, especially that Ab chord before the cadenza. I also felt my ff I-V chords in the end of the exposition to be weak as well. Another thing to work on.

Thanks for the comment about the clean cadenza, I practiced a lot of finger staccato (Jeu Perlé) as well as the accent exercise which I shared with you on your Rachmaninoff post.

The recording was made at a church that I attend and volunteer in, which has pretty nice acoustics. I've been very lucky with that so I should make the best out of it.

[medtnerfan]

Here is the 2nd movement of the Sonata. I was having a lot of problems with evenness with the 32nd notes (demisemiquavers) in this one. Again any feedback is welcome.

[lowk-_-y]

I like this movement as well. Decisive and well executed.

My comments will for sure not be as long as for the 1st mvt but will still be as detailed if not more than. This also means that they are more subjective so throw away what you don’t want.

Two things for this first section, firstly, your attention to detail is really good here, are you consciously focusing on the termination of sounds at the end of each bar? If so then you’ve done a good job but there were some instances where the hands/voices didn’t quite come off together. I think in another mvt or another piece this wouldn’t matter so much but in something like this, where silence plays such a large roll, the unity of termination is a nice touch.

Secondly, I would suggest trying to conduct this section of your recording in 4/8 and see how you do. There are some instances where I feel that your entries don’t align with the tempo that you’ve implied, B2 entry being a good example. If you had employed a rit for the end of the bar then the conducting beat would have slowed to allow the entry to come in on time. Currently with the stilted entries it’s a little hard to feel that this is a four-bar phrase and not four separate bars. Unless you see it as 4 separate thoughts…if so disregard what I say.

But this implied pulse is still very important when syncopations such as the end of B6 are involved. B6 came off well but the Lh B8 entry felt a little late. Also, coinciding my beats with B10 was quite hard, are you holding the dotted note long enough?

Occasionally the ends of the Lh melodies like in B13 get lost in the Rh accompaniment, there are several ways to solve this which I’m sure you can experiment with, just wondered if you were aware. Maybe a Rh dim to coincide with the melodic dim? I’m really not sure.

What a beautiful sound you get on those accented slurred quavers from B18, it’s not always consistent however. Occasionally the accent will be too weak and therefore the slur effect doesn’t quite happen but this was only occasional.

B34 - Desired the same beautiful melodic shaping of the Lh octaves as the single notes before,  a somewhat more demanding melody but still beautiful surely.

Anyway this is me being unbelievably picky, only because it’s a really good performance. Your ideas are convincing and quite individual I’d say, especially tempo wise (which I like).

This wasn’t meant to be long…

[medtnerfan]

I love your critiques, very detailed.

For the termination of notes in the first section, my goal was to have a slower release (so not abrupt) with the exception of the one in B6, as I thought the more abrupt silence will give a rhythmic pulse to effectively play the syncopated figures right after. Also, for releasing chords I'm experimenting with something that I would describe as an arpeggiated release, so from the bottom up, sometimes keeping the lowest note to be released with the highest one, in order to make the highest note "ring out". I don't have full control over it so that probably one of the reasons for my inconsistency. I got this idea from being in a wind orchestra rehearsal, where the conductor was getting us to do that so I thought I would apply it to my solo piano playing.

For trying to conduct the part, yeah I see what you mean in B2. I'm taking a little bit more time with the pauses. I actually remember reading the book "The Art of Piano Playing" by Heinrich Neuhaus, where he recommended to study the score away from the piano while "conducting" as a way to get more control over tempo. I should definitely do that more, I only did that a couple of times, or only once, with this movement.

For B10 I think I'm speeding up the 32nd notes. I remember that before I was holding the dotted note too long.

Good point about the right hand accompaniment getting in the way of the top left hand melody at the end of the phrase. Maintaining consistency in those 32nd figures was a nightmare, and is still challenging (those ghost notes, drive me mad haha). The left hand jumping from low to high notes doesn't make it any easier, haha.

For B34, you meant B35 right? if so I agree, my ability for good phrasing while playing octaves is a bit of a challenge for me and something I need to work on.

Thanks for your feedback, I don't mind the length.

[medtnerfan]

My performance of the 3rd movement, "Scherzo", from Beethoven's Piano Sonata no 3.
This "Scherzo", which means "Joke" in Italian, will not make you laugh, but Beethoven's scherzi are usually characterized with emphasis on weaker beats in a fast triple meter setting, which produces a wobbly and humorous effect.
For the trio section, I practiced finger staccato so much, but I still have lots to improve on when it comes producing a light "pearly" touch.
As always, feedback is welcome.

[medtnerfan]

Here is my performance of the final movement of this sonata. Thank you to all who listened, and thank you "lowk-_-y" for all your feedback (feel free to provide some for the 3rd or 4th movements too, if you have the time of course). This was quite the project for me, but it was a very rewarding experience.

&index=5s&fbclid=IwAR1a3HfEdfPn92LfB2s30StDFod-K6tqxaPbZd3WDwVH_A4quOzADQAh0bY

[lowk-_-y]

Some thoughts on your 3rd Movement.

Detailed and characterised performance as always.

I like the clarity and finality of the B16/17 chords, also in their repetitions. I feel that the B8 chords and whenever they reappear are consistently less crisp, I agree with the absence of a sense of finality here as we’re only arriving at an imperfect cadence but perhaps these chords could have the same clarity as those at the B17 cadence. Let me know if I’ve missed something you were trying to do

I think that your presentation of each voice entry is very effective and focused throughout, it’s very easy for me, especially in the B section to pick a voice to listen to and be satisfied with it’s progression. In the A section I’m guessing however that this focus may be detracting a little to the progression of less active voices. The main example might be the minim top Rh voice from B3-6. Most likely due to priority given to the Lh entry in B4, this Rh voice becomes somewhat weaker which makes the B7 cadential progression come out of nowhere instead of being gradually built up by this top voice. I just had a thought, maybe you view the B5 chord as an appoggiatura that resolves in B6 which would make sense in relation to the consistency of your playing but I’m not sure if it works in this phrase structure. This is clear in B45 where this chord has to carry over the bar as a dissonance to be resolved by the D and F to start the cadential progression. Currently I feel the B45 chord is too weak to carry over so again this cadential moment seems somewhat stilted.

As you may have noticed, my love of a performance (particularly in classical repertoire) is in the attention to slurs and I think overall your playing shows much detail in this respect. I do feel that the moments that perhaps don’t work as well (understandably), are when there are sforzandi involved which complicates things. Moments such as B29 consistently show so much attention to the (innovative off-beat) Sf that the slur effect of the next two chords is often inaudible. This possibly just needs experimentation with different levels but perhaps employing something as simple as leaning into the first of these slurred chords with your wrist and then pulling away with your wrist (in the direction of the chord) while playing the second will get the effect while still following the Sfs before. With that said, the final moments of the section, B60-63 were successful with these slurs.

Tiny thing but it sounds to me that the 2nd time bar after B63 sounds identical to the 1st time bar, is this intentional? I feel that although both are written as crochets, a fraction more time on this 2nd time octave could give a sense of finality to the section, so that we, as listeners are ready for the trio. Also I’m not sure how you feel in terms of relations between sections but I definitely prefer continuity, there was a slight delay before the trio which I feel hinders the momentum but perhaps momentum here is not something you’re aiming for which would be valid given the change of mood.

For the trio I love the foundation that your Lh phrasing gives to the section, it could easily become simply Lh octaves but you make music with them. I am wondering what you want show out of this Rh. I would’ve thought that highlighting the beat 1 and beat 3 Es of every bar as a motif among the changing harmonies would allow the cadential E,E,D# melody to make sense instead of suddenly appearing out of 6 bars of harmony. This is clearly Beethoven’s intentions as he writes in the B section the Sf and staccatissimo markings at these points so perhaps this was your aim but it just didn’t come across as well as it might have in the A section. With that said, the melody/motif was a lot more apparent in your playing of the B section with a lovely colour change in B22.

B38 of trio - Possibly a bit of time before this final dramatic ff statement of the section?

Lovely Coda

[lowk-_-y]

4th Movement

Some stand out moments for me: 0.38, wow this transition was super clean and exciting, 0.52 and it’s repetitions were consistently very fluid in the alteration of material between the hands, was very clear what you wanted to show, from B111, the Rh accompaniment has a lovely soft tone that compliments the Lh melody, B172, are you detaching this Lh ascending voice? I’ve never heard this before but it’s very interesting, I do like it.

One aspect that characterises this movement for me is the feeling of pure excitement or at least anticipation, throughout most of it (apart from the darker moments). I feel that you convey this very nicely but could possibly do so even more (forgive me for this) by getting incredibly excited by the many rests. I feel that silence here is as important as in the 2nd movement although for a completely different purpose. There is so much tension in moments like B4, B8, B22 and B80 where I get the feeling that your focus is on what is coming after the rest instead of the rest itself. Something as simple as taking a sharp breath during these rests never fails to energise these moments for me. B24 trill is the upmost overflow of excitement for me.

These B8 fast semiquaver passages clearly take a lot of concentration to execute with clarity and flair (which you do) but an added detail would be the phrasing off of the dotted crotchet inner voices with finger legato, especially in B13 where I hear this moment as detached. Also in B15, the wrist leaning from my mvt 3 comments might be helpful here for the inner voices slur.

Moments like B30, I tend to get distracted by the Lh accompaniment, to me it sounds a little brittle and hard which conflicts with the excited beautiful lyricism of the Rh. Perhaps more pedal, or a softer Lh articulation might help this. I’ve definitely heard this passage played a lot more indulgently, sounding more Mendelssohn than Beethoven, but your presentation was anything but indulgent. Also is it possible in B43 to give the unexpected modulation to the minor bit more significance, I feel that it is an interesting moment that vanished without the listener being able to acknowledge how this subtle addition of a B flat changes the whole contour of this moment.

I’m quite interested in your approach at bar 101. It’s clear that the predictable thing for Beethoven to do is to cadence here in A minor and explore the material in this key, but instead we find ourselves in F major. I desired a conventional phrasing towards the A minor cadence in B101 with the B flat octave afterwards having a little bit of time before so we know that something subversive has happened, the direction has changed slightly. It sounded like this ‘Decoy’ A minor cadence was glossed over somewhat.

B296 - Trilled for a tad too long?

Hope some of this was useful. Nice to hear all movements in conjunction with each other.

[medtnerfan]

Thanks for the feedback, it's always a pleasure and more importantly very educative.

This is for the 3rd movement

I feel that the B8 chords and whenever they reappear are consistently less crisp

Yeah, I was probably losing focus as time went by. I definitely agree they should remain crisp even though it is an imperfect cadence. Absence of a sense of finality can be achieved with phrasing, which was what I was trying to do, haha

I just had a thought, maybe you view the B5 chord as an appoggiatura that resolves in B6

Yeah, I was viewing it that way. But what you're saying makes more sense as it takes the bigger phrase into account. Sometimes we get caught up in the small phrases, haha.

I do feel that the moments that perhaps don’t work as well (understandably), are when there are sforzandi involved which complicates things. Moments such as B29 consistently show so much attention to the (innovative off-beat) Sf that the slur effect of the next two chords is often inaudible. This possibly just needs experimentation with different levels but perhaps employing something as simple as leaning into the first of these slurred chords with your wrist and then pulling away with your wrist (in the direction of the chord) while playing the second will get the effect while still following the Sfs before. With that said, the final moments of the section, B60-63 were successful with these slurs.

Yeah, this was something that I have so much trouble with, namely slurring two chords. Wanting to make sure to voice the top notes while playing in a soft dynamic just adds to the difficulty. The ones at B60-63 were easier because they're going from a 3 note chord to a 2 note chord in the same hand position.

Tiny thing but it sounds to me that the 2nd time bar after B63 sounds identical to the 1st time bar, is this intentional? I feel that although both are written as crochets, a fraction more time on this 2nd time octave could give a sense of finality to the section, so that we, as listeners are ready for the trio. Also I’m not sure how you feel in terms of relations between sections but I definitely prefer continuity, there was a slight delay before the trio which I feel hinders the momentum but perhaps momentum here is not something you’re aiming for which would be valid given the change of mood.

I didn't really think about it, as in I wasn't trying to make them different, but that's definitely something I should experiment with. As for the hesitation into the Trio section, yeah absolutely, those fast triplet arpeggios are very difficult for me, which were causing a slight hesitation. I had to practice so much finger staccato, but I still need more work.

For the trio I love the foundation that your Lh phrasing gives to the section, it could easily become simply Lh octaves but you make music with them

Thanks, I got the idea from the recording of Éric Heidsieck. He's Beethoven recordings are a hidden gem.

I would’ve thought that highlighting the beat 1 and beat 3 Es of every bar as a motif among the changing harmonies would allow the cadential E,E,D# melody to make sense instead of suddenly appearing out of 6 bars of harmony. This is clearly Beethoven’s intentions as he writes in the B section the Sf and staccatissimo markings at these points so perhaps this was your aim but it just didn’t come across as well as it might have in the A section

Yeah, it just didn't come out. "Speed is the great Neutralizer" as Josh Wright would say, it's just so hard to make the sforzandos come out at that speed for me. I was trying to achieve it with pedalling, so I would do a pedal change at the sforzandos to give emphasis, but I either didn't pull it off well, or that idea doesn't work as well as I thought.

B38 of trio - Possibly a bit of time before this final dramatic ff statement of the section?

Oh that's a great idea. I'll definitely experiment with that

Thanks again for the feedback

[medtnerfan]

Some stand out moments for me: 0.38, wow this transition was super clean and exciting, 0.52 and it’s repetitions were consistently very fluid in the alteration of material between the hands, was very clear what you wanted to show, from B111, the Rh accompaniment has a lovely soft tone that compliments the Lh melody, B172, are you detaching this Lh ascending voice? I’ve never heard this before but it’s very interesting, I do like it.

The arpeggio at 0.38 is one I worked hard at and experimented with different hand distributions (and a lot of finger staccato, to get that "pearly" sound haha). The fingerings I used, starting from G3): LH1 RH1 2 3 4(or5) LH3 1 RH3 1 2 3 4.
For 0.52, I took inspiration from Michelangeli's video recording (the black and white one especially)
For B172, yes I'm detaching the bass notes. My goal was to get a nice sforzando, so the staccato came from that, haha, I wasn't consciously thinking about the staccato. I'm glad you liked it.

One aspect that characterises this movement for me is the feeling of pure excitement or at least anticipation, throughout most of it (apart from the darker moments). I feel that you convey this very nicely but could possibly do so even more (forgive me for this) by getting incredibly excited by the many rests. I feel that silence here is as important as in the 2nd movement although for a completely different purpose. There is so much tension in moments like B4, B8, B22 and B80 where I get the feeling that your focus is on what is coming after the rest instead of the rest itself. Something as simple as taking a sharp breath during these rests never fails to energise these moments for me. B24 trill is the upmost overflow of excitement for me.

Yeah I agree, listening back that was the first thing that came to my mind (B4 and B8). The same applies for the other bar's you mentioned.
For the trill at B24, yeah it's always nice when I manage to put in more notes in a trill, gives it a more professional sound. Hopefully I'll be become more consistent with those though.

These B8 fast semiquaver passages clearly take a lot of concentration to execute with clarity and flair (which you do) but an added detail would be the phrasing off of the dotted crotchet inner voices with finger legato, especially in B13 where I hear this moment as detached. Also in B15, the wrist leaning from my mvt 3 comments might be helpful here for the inner voices slur.

I'll definitely experiment with wrist leaning since I don't want to have to use the pedal there because it might affect the "crisp" sound I'm going for in the top line.

Moments like B30, I tend to get distracted by the Lh accompaniment, to me it sounds a little brittle and hard which conflicts with the excited beautiful lyricism of the Rh. Perhaps more pedal, or a softer Lh articulation might help this. I’ve definitely heard this passage played a lot more indulgently, sounding more Mendelssohn than Beethoven, but your presentation was anything but indulgent. Also is it possible in B43 to give the unexpected modulation to the minor bit more significance, I feel that it is an interesting moment that vanished without the listener being able to acknowledge how this subtle addition of a B flat changes the whole contour of this moment.

Yeah, it's kind of difficult to keep the right hand lyrical there with that left hand passage going on, haha. My intention was to use a touch of pedal on the main beats there, but I don't know what happened that take. For B43, the Bb in the left hand was too weak, I meant to use pedal there as well, slightly longer than in the major section, I think that would have achieved a more significant modulation.

I’m quite interested in your approach at bar 101. It’s clear that the predictable thing for Beethoven to do is to cadence here in A minor and explore the material in this key, but instead we find ourselves in F major. I desired a conventional phrasing towards the A minor cadence in B101 with the B flat octave afterwards having a little bit of time before so we know that something subversive has happened, the direction has changed slightly. It sounded like this ‘Decoy’ A minor cadence was glossed over somewhat.

So here I was thinking of B101-102 as one big phrase (decrescendo into the dolce section). Listening back after reading your feedback, I think next time I would have done a cresecendo going into B101, implying a resolution to A minor, but then drop down in dynamic with a subito piano(mp) at B101. I think if I had done it that way then that subversive moment would have been more effective, while still maintaining the phrasing that I wanted.

B296 - Trilled for a tad too long?

Haha yup, I was too focused on ending the trill it smoothly that I forgot to count.

Hope some of this was useful. Nice to hear all movements in conjunction with each other.

Very useful, this kind of thing is the main reason why I joined this piano forum. So thank you very much.