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Chopin - Polonaise Brillante Op. 22 PROBLEM (Read 697 times)

Offline siiben

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Chopin - Polonaise Brillante Op. 22 PROBLEM
« on: September 15, 2020, 08:50:46 AM »
I'm having immense difficulty with this one bar.

I've honestly spent a ridiculous amount of hours on it, all kinds of variations and gimmicks and it simply won't improve. This is during a timespan of over a year. Help! Anyone?

edit. The rest of the piece is fairly staight forward. Why did Chopin have to include this ball buster of a passage? Looks easy as well on the face of it.

Offline arpeggio

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Re: Chopin - Polonaise Brillante Op. 22 PROBLEM
«Reply #1 on: September 16, 2020, 06:23:42 PM »
First, I believe that the fingering is bad, I dont know why we would put a 3 on the second note of the first triplet. There is the fingering I would use:

5 1
4
3 2
3 1
5 3
4 2
3 1
5 3
4 2
3 1
4 2
3 1
4 2
3 1
5
In which triplet do you have more problem?
Good luck and let us know! :)

Offline quantum

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Re: Chopin - Polonaise Brillante Op. 22 PROBLEM
«Reply #2 on: September 16, 2020, 07:09:52 PM »
Here  are a few to try:

Thumb on black keys, however the pattern with the hand fits rhythmically with the music.
52, 4, 31, 42, 31, 21, 42, 31, 21, 42, 31, 21, 42, 31, 5

Using 42 as opposed to 53 means less flexing and extending. 
52, 4, 32, 21, 42, 31, 21, 42, 31, 21, 42, 31, 42, 31, 5

Less twisting than what is indicated in the example.
52, 4, 32, 21, 53, 42, 31, 53, 42, 31, 42, 31, 42, 31, 5

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline siiben

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Re: Chopin - Polonaise Brillante Op. 22 PROBLEM
«Reply #3 on: September 17, 2020, 05:59:38 AM »
First, I believe that the fingering is bad, I dont know why we would put a 3 on the second note of the first triplet. There is the fingering I would use:

5 1
4
3 2
3 1
5 3
4 2
3 1
5 3
4 2
3 1
4 2
3 1
4 2
3 1
5
In which triplet do you have more problem?
Good luck and let us know! :)

Yes, this is the fingering I use. I have most trouble at the end with the 31-42-31-42-31-5. It just turns into mush whenever I try to pick up some speed.

Here  are a few to try:

Thumb on black keys, however the pattern with the hand fits rhythmically with the music.
52, 4, 31, 42, 31, 21, 42, 31, 21, 42, 31, 21, 42, 31, 5

Using 42 as opposed to 53 means less flexing and extending. 
52, 4, 32, 21, 42, 31, 21, 42, 31, 21, 42, 31, 42, 31, 5

Less twisting than what is indicated in the example.
52, 4, 32, 21, 53, 42, 31, 53, 42, 31, 42, 31, 42, 31, 5

Thank you! I will give these a go.

Online lostinidlewonder

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Re: Chopin - Polonaise Brillante Op. 22 PROBLEM
«Reply #4 on: September 17, 2020, 01:12:05 PM »
I think the fingering given in the score is the very best solution although perhaps if you have much "jazz style" fingering experience sliding the 4 will be very natural for the opening triplet of the RH i.e (15)4(24). The crossing (35) and (24) are the major players you want to master.

This is not something that wants to be practiced without the Left hand. There is a particular feel that the (35) cross gives straight after the strong beat and then how it changes with the (24) and on the final beat the cross actually occurs together, this is better felt combined with the LH. It is difficult to explain in words the technique and what you might be missing but I wouldn't go changing the fingerings here. It shouldn't take many hours to solve this so I'm thinking the failure with the fingerings given here is a product of some technical inefficiency albeit subtle but enough to cause problems.
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Offline siiben

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Re: Chopin - Polonaise Brillante Op. 22 PROBLEM
«Reply #5 on: September 17, 2020, 02:18:10 PM »
I think the fingering given in the score is the very best solution although perhaps if you have much "jazz style" fingering experience sliding the 4 will be very natural for the opening triplet of the RH i.e (15)4(24). The crossing (35) and (24) are the major players you want to master.

This is not something that wants to be practiced without the Left hand. There is a particular feel that the (35) cross gives straight after the strong beat and then how it changes with the (24) and on the final beat the cross actually occurs together, this is better felt combined with the LH. It is difficult to explain in words the technique and what you might be missing but I wouldn't go changing the fingerings here. It shouldn't take many hours to solve this so I'm thinking the failure with the fingerings given here is a product of some technical inefficiency albeit subtle but enough to cause problems.

Yea I seem to have lied above, I do slide the 4 in the opening. The crossing of 35-24 is pretty smooth. It's the last two triplets that get me every time. I just hit a wall and fumble. No doubt some technical inefficiency, might also be psychological by now too because I'm sure I used to play it better before.  This issue's been pronounced ever since I heard Josh Wright claim it's the hardest part of the piece ha.

Offline mjames

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Re: Chopin - Polonaise Brillante Op. 22 PROBLEM
«Reply #6 on: September 17, 2020, 11:39:36 PM »
op. 25 no. 6

problem solved, forever.