They have quite a bit in common, obviously, but like the way ravel manages the alternating double notes with singles is so masterful, the way balakirev does in places is awful, although occasionally it works and you can get them fast, but ravel can become mind blowing in speed. I'll likely return to islamey but some parts won't be a joy. I think Don Juan is even less demanding...And now returning to standard Rep like scriabin and faure is suddenly effortless... I don't have to practice anymore!!!
Ravel intended the Scarbo movement to be more difficult than Balakirev's Islamey and he succeeded imho.
Is Islamey harder than Liszt's scherzo und marsch?
I've done both and islamey felt like endless punishment... Ravel just felt like art...
Worst topic ever?
For me the islamey got solved pretty fast by comparison. I would be surprised if we took statistics from all who have played both and the islamey came out being considered as harder. Scarbo requires that you are a wizard at arpeggio playing, it really is tough work which gives a lot of problems to solve, much more than what you face in the islamey. I thought so but Ravel did actually write Scarbo with the intention of it being harder than Islamey so that is a bit of knowledge that is pretty important to know.
Looking at your channel, it seems that there's a 4-year gap between your learning of Ondine and Scarbo, so I guess the notes didn't come that easy, either.
Lostinidlewonder, you didn't find the pianistic aspect of islamey a little barbaric, some of the double note alternating figures has the thumb on black keys to start with and the leaps on the e bass note near the end... Compared to the ravel which fit like a glove, it really brings up the difficulty.
it's true there are many which looks harder thread's. This isn't one of them, thanks
Ah . . . my goodness. Is that "performance standard"? Like, who were you intending to subject to that? Hopefully not humans!This is simultaneously a really weird/paragon-of-Pianostreet-stereotype topic in order to drop a brag. I can see how someone who's just trying to hit the notes might think that Islamey is harder than Gaspard. Looking at your channel, it seems that there's a 4-year gap between your learning of Ondine and Scarbo, so I guess the notes didn't come that easy, either.Worst topic ever?
Trust me, Stravinsky's Three movements of Petrushka makes those pieces look almost like a joke.
If you played any of them you’d know they’re all pretty nasty with their own challenges.
Islamey harder than the Gaspard lol. Funny joke.
Oh? And why do you think that??
I've already stated why, will you even understand why it really is harder if the answer is fully in depth? It would be a waste of my time to be so precise. Unless you actually have the facility to play both any answer is just going go over your head.
Really? Is this the best you can explain? I agree with music. here. Have you played or performed either of them? Because if you didn't, your opinion doesn't have a valid supporting reason. I can tell you mine - try playing Islamey in front of an audience. Then you have the facility to post an argument. Islamey is a piece that can easily be played as trash and your fingers also gets messier by each note if you perform it. Gaspard is less uncomfortable and less strangled, where you can actually give it voicing without dying by the end of the performance. ~leethoven
People who can play both will find gaspard more difficult any other answer is from a made up persona.
That's a controversial statement. What's your source?
Who cares about your performance stories you can make up whatever you like it doesn't add to anything. Just look at the content of the works and also the fact that gaspard is three movements. Scarbo alone is more difficult than islamey. Ravel composed scarbo with the intention of it being more difficult than islamey. I already pointed out technical repetition in the islamey I'm not going to spoonfed any more info if I don't want to. People who can play both will find gaspard more difficult any other answer is from a made up persona.
However, the Ondine and Le Gibet are not even close to the difficulty of Islamey.
Ravel's intention of making Scarbo more difficult than the Islamey had not proven to have succeeded-
I have seen MANY young piano students under 16 years old who played the ENTIRE Gaspard beautifully and fluently. Meanwhile, anyone who tries Islamey usually ends up playing it like a mess of a machine gun, with the exception of few daring masters. Even some masters refuse to touch this piece. I have watched the performance of Yuja Wang at a concert playing the Islamey and it sounded no better than the 15 year olds. The whole thing was a disaster.
While Scarbo is more difficult musically, Islamey is much more pianistic.
The technical repetition in the Islamey IS what makes it difficult. Sure, you can learn the piece slow and you might get it done quicker than the Scarbo, but it's the tempo and speed that matters. Try playing 19 pages of REPEATED thirds, sixths, jumping octaves and large cords - at the given tempo. My respect if you can manage it to be clear and clean, with melodies easily heard, and you can't hide behind the pedal.
And please - try to have a civilized conversation on just facts without bluntly insulting others. People simply have different opinions and you don't have to prove others wrong to prove yourself right. A simple fact is - you can play both if you have to ability to play one. ~leethoven
You are saying a lot but nothing specific at all. If you really want to prove your point why don't you lay out an analysis of both pieces and prove that the technical difficulties of Islamey is more difficult than all three movements of the Gaspard. You also have the stance that even though Ravel composed Scarbo with the intention of it being more difficult than Islamey he failed. Why would you question Ravel's ability as a composer and pianist?Ondine is not easy at all and has acrobatics which are quite difficult. The proof is there that Ravel actually intended it to be more difficult. He could compare the difficulty of the two and create something that was more. He had extra information to create a work that was more difficult. So you are saying Ravel failed, I laugh at you for that comment. A lot of writing but nothing which proves your point. Fully define what you mean by Musically and Pianistic. If something is more pianistic if fits under the hands much easier. Scarbo is more difficult musically not to mention the other two movements also challenge your expression a great deal, it is also more technically difficult since Ravel intended it to be so and did well. What about the fact that Gaspard's run time is like 2.5 times more than the Islamey? Lets take exact bars of music, what do you think is the most difficult part of Islamey and compare that to the most difficult part you think is in Scarbo. Let's see how well you know both pieces. There are many made up personas that come up on pianostreet, if you feel insulted then prove me wrong. Instead of making up stories why don't you shows us what is the most difficult parts of Scarbo and Islamey, please contast these two sections and show why you think Islamey is so much more challenging. Exact bars of music please. I don't have to prove anything at all because Ravel's intention was there to make it more difficult and he was a great musician and certainly could realize his goals, if you understood how carefully he composed you would not doubt he really would have worked very hard to achieve what he wanted. So the burden of proof lies on your shoulders since you are saying Ravel failed at his attempt and didn't understand the piano enough to make something more difficult.
1. Composers compose pieces to be played. How difficult a piece is depends solely on the player.
I never questioned Ravel's ability as a composer. No one should judge a piece just because the composer wanted it to be more difficult, it all depends on the players technical weaknesses.
How can you just say he succeeded because HE said he would?
Ravel didn't fail, some people agree with him.
But just like the cake example, others might still find the neighbor's cake much more tasty. Is it that difficult to understand?
If you really think Ondine and Le Gibet are more difficult than Islamey... lol.
The Gaspard is a 'flowing' piece.
It might be long in time, but it isn't tiring for your muscles because you move around instead of holding your hand in one strangled position.
You must be a terrible musician if you think I can prove a piece difficult by some few bars.
I can, however, tell you the PAGES I found difficult.
In Scarbo, the Eflat section before the Un peu retenu was one, and I found Tonjours en accelerant with the last two pages pretty hard. .....Scarbo needs much more tone color and nuance than Islamey, and that's what I mean by musically....... Islamey is at its peak of difficulty after the Andantino espressivo all the way to the end......I find the page right after the slow section most difficult because of the voicing of the fast small chords. ...... The presto section to the end is the most difficult part of the piece. This is because your hands are in one large position while moving fast, so when you reach that part, you're pretty much dead tired. And that's not it. Balakirev tells you presto, so you gotta move even faster. That's what I mean by pianistic.
Again, that's just my opinion. Based on my technique. Nothing to do with Ravel, or other people. It's the PLAYER'S strengths and weakness that determine which is more difficult, so Ravel's opinion is not in the picture.
Rubbish. The experience of difficulty is different with each person but the composer can certainly write something difficult on purpose. But the question is whether Gaspard is more difficult than Islamey (which it is) and we certainly can see a difference in difficulty in the two. Someone might find Fur Elise easier than Mary had a little lamb but most people will think you are a little crazy for saying things like that. Because Ravel DEVOTED his life to composition and writing music for the piano. You tend to think that it is all subjective and nothing is controlled.Not SOME, the vast majority your opinion that Gaspard is easier than Islamey is highly marginalized. Your association is utterly weak, I told you to take some actual bars of music and compare them, you are totally avoiding that which is highly amusing. You said they are "not even close to the difficulty of Islamey" which is a stupid statement.A made up undefined term. LOOOOOOOOL!!!! Wow great analysis. You must be very short sighted if you think it cannot be revealed that way.How is this any different from actualy taking bars of music? Your definition is pianistic is wrong. You took like 11 pages of the Islamey saying it's so difficult and like 3 pages of Scarbo? Lol you are amusing. Come on exact bars of music and compare contrast, or is that asking too much of you? You are just rattling off your opinions on sections without COMPARING the two, that is not convincing me that the Islamey is more difficult at all. You think you will be tired after merely playing the Islamey compared to 2.5 times longer playing of the Gaspard? Scarbo alone is more difficult than Islamey but to play the other two movements then the Scarbo makes it even more challenging. His "opinion"? He actually devoted his life to composition and writing for the piano. So if he had the intention to write something more difficult than the Islamey he certainly could have done so no problems. Even I could also write something more difficult than Scarbo if I wanted to, it wouldn't sound anywhere near as artistic and beautiful but it would easily be more difficult. Writing something difficult is not difficult at all so Ravel EASILY can manage that.
You didn't compare anything specific at all, like 3 pages of Scarbo vs 11 pages of Islamey, if you don't want to take this serious and contrast actual bars of music to show how Islamey is so much more difficult than Scarbo then thats up to you. I dont have to show anything at all because I am satisfied that Ravel's intention to make Scarbo more difficult than Islamey was successful, he was a great composer and pianist, of a very high standard, he laboured on his works a huge amount and I would not put question to his skills and state that he failed in his endevour to make Scarbo more difficult than Islamey. You have stated he failed so it is up to you to prove that he did.
I don't want to waste my time, so I won't reply to each little ridiculous point of yours that says nothing. Here are three general things that I hope your brain can absorb.
One. Please show me exactly where I stated Ravel failed. Pray tell. I already told you I never questioned Ravel's ability as a composer. Your assumptions are insane.
Two. This topic about whether Islamey is harder than Gaspard (which it is) is SUBJECTIVE. Everyone has different opinions and I don't need to prove myself to say my opinion.
After I played both pieces, I wrote from first-handed experience that I found Islamey more difficult. You have your judgment, and I have mine. End of story.
Three. Since you must have found it difficult to acknowledge the simple fact that difficulty depends on each player, I will give you a conclusion for you: if you can play one, you can play both.
I am laughing so hard right now . This has to be the most foolish claim I've ever seen.
Your one and only source is "Ravel"... LOL
Most of the time, pianists know a piece better than the composer did.
You decided Gaspard is harder because "Ravel says so" - such a weak claim that I can't even argue.
You are probably the kind of person that would drink hand sanitizer because "Trump says that it cures the covid".
You made my morning very amusing.
I am laughing so hard right now . This has to be the most foolish claim I've ever seen. Your one and only source is "Ravel"... LOL. Most of the time, pianists know a piece better than the composer did. You decided Gaspard is harder because "Ravel says so" - such a weak claim that I can't even argue. You are probably the kind of person that would drink hand sanitizer because "Trump says that it cures the covid". You made my morning very amusing.
Show us exact bars and explain how the technique in Islamey is harder. Oh whats that? You cant? Awww too bad.
Whatever screen name you use, when you make the discussion a personal insult, you lose all credibility.
You make my day even more amusing since you are creating accounts and responding to the same thread lol. Why dont you just use your leethoven account? You so triggered.Oh the melodrama, do you live under a rock? He is an excellent composer are you saying he was unable to compose something more difficult when his intention was to do so? You are ridiculous. Composing something difficult is not that difficult at all, the fact that Ravel did that AND created a musical master piece is where his genius lies. You obviously have no idea what a genius Ravel was so please leave the forum with all your fake accounts. LOL!That's right you can't argue it because it is such a strong claim. Ravel devoted his life to composition, prove that Scarbo is easier than Islamey then if you think you know the works better than the composers themselves. Show us exact bars and explain how the technique in Islamey is harder. Oh whats that? You cant? Awww too bad.lol is that an attempt at insulting me? Wow I am so hurt... I might cut myself now.Well I am sure creating fake accounts is more amusing for you though?
I don't know who the heck leethoven is.
I don't have the experience, but neither do you.
My teachers said if you start first with the Gaspard, you may struggle with learning the Islamey, but not vise versa.
I trust my teachers very much.
And you can't tell a piece's difficulty simply by the composer - I bet Ravel never even touched Islamey, and he only allowed Gieseking to play his Gaspard. Which means Ravel probably never performed his own Scarbo. Pianists play those pieces their entire lives. Surely they know better?
It's you.Ok then please reveal to everyone what my experience is then, you talk as if you know me lol. Nice story, your made up teacher should have realized the arpgeggio techniques of the Scarbo is extremely difficult and no amount of Islamey will help prepare you for that.I am sure you trust lots of things that are in your imagination. They surely do know better since everything you said here is just a made up story in your own head. Gosh you are not a very elaborate troll.
Topic: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey 