Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey

[lostinidlewonder]

If I have a student learning Gaspard or Islamey and they can’t figure out what’s harder for them to play then the music is too hard for them period. 

And if you’re actually at the level where you could play one of them you‘re most likely able to play both so it doesn’t matter.  Just pick the one you like more.

This who convo is a dick measuring contest about difficulty I’m convinced none of y’all actually like Islamey or Gaspard.

You are living in a little bubble of your own making and refuse to think outside your little box. Are we supposed to help you with that?

You can keep telling students to solve everything themselves and that they should know it all otherwise forget about attempting a piece, rather than being able to lay out the journey that might have to be taken and measurements that need to be taken into consideration, and don't worry about those students who have time restrictions tell them to just go ahead and learn the piece and if they find roadblocks after investing time into the piece that are not resolving efficiently, bad luck deal with it! Also don't bother about accurate "looking before you leap" don't worry about a professional appraisal of all challenges a student might face, don't worry about considering your students strengths and weaknesses and knowing how to apply it to a given piece in a comprehensive manner. Don't worry about submitting pieces to competitons and bothering about difficulty levels, of course an easier piece played well will beat a difficult piece played well!!! Lol. Yep it's all about something superficial right? Lol.

[thorn]

If I have a student learning Gaspard or Islamey and they can’t figure out what’s harder for them to play then the music is too hard for them period. 

And if you’re actually at the level where you could play one of them you‘re most likely able to play both so it doesn’t matter.  Just pick the one you like more.

This who convo is a dick measuring contest about difficulty I’m convinced none of y’all actually like Islamey or Gaspard.

You're confusing a student with a seasoned pianist. A student takes piano lessons from a teacher because they require the type of guidance LIW describes. If, as a teacher, you are not giving students this type of input then what exactly are they paying you for?

Also composers throughout history have stretched the possibilities of the instruments they write for- including your beloved Rachmaninoff. You can't do this without an understanding of the present limits, and how previous pieces have pushed these boundaries. Are you calling Rachmaninoff superficial? Bach?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You are living in a little bubble of your own making and refuse to think outside your little box. Are we supposed to help you with that? You can remain there who cares really?

You can keep telling students to solve everything themselves…

I read this much and stopped reading.  Cause I never said they have to solve everything themselves.  Nothing you’ve said afterwards is worth the effort

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Are you calling Rachmaninoff superficial? Bach?

No they’re not superficial.  YOU’RE superficial.  If Ravel was alive today he’d probably think y’all are weird for arguing about Islamey vs Gaspard. hE iNtEndED gASpArD tO bE HarDeR tHoUgh bro that’s probably some stupid bet or joke he had with balakirev it’s not that deep.

Also what does student vs seasoned pianist have to do with anything.  There’s students who can play either of the songs and seasoned pianists (whatever that means) who can’t.

It’s different if it was like fur Elise vs Turkish March but these are two of the hardest songs in standard rep if you’re at that level and you’re not self sufficient enough to tell which one is the better option for you then your teacher failed in helping you think for yourself.  I couldn’t imagine someone able to play Gaspard needing to be spoonfed every little detail along the way

[lostinidlewonder]

I read this much and stopped reading.  Cause I never said they have to solve everything themselves.  Nothing you’ve said afterwards is worth the effort

You said they should be able to solve the difficulty appraisal themselves, you are bringing a machete to surgery ignoring a number of issues which I brought up but which go over your head

I don't care what you read or not, it's OK you won't understand it anyway, here's a tissue and some copium tablets.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You said they should be able to solve the difficulty appraisal themselves, you are bringing a machete to surgery ignoring a number of issues which I brought up but which go over your head

I don't care what you read or not, it's OK you won't understand it anyway, here's a tissue and some copium tablets.

I meannnn you obviously do care that’s why you wrote it

And yes if they’re good enough to play Scarbo they should be able to gauge the difficulty themselves.  However you misquoted me in your previous comment.  Which is why I didn’t read anything else. 

Besides y’all weren’t even arguing from a pedagogy perspective y’all were just trying to out dick size eachother and when I called you out on it you immediately go oH wElL iM a TeAcHeR

[lostinidlewonder]

I meannnn you obviously do care that’s why you wrote it

Logically if it's meant ONLY for you I would have sent a private message. So again, I don't care what you read or not so you announcing what you read or not makes no difference

And yes if they’re good enough to play Scarbo they should be able to gauge the difficulty themselves.  However you misquoted me in your previous comment.  Which is why I didn’t read anything else. 

I didn't misquote anything at all. I explained why knowing the difficulty for even students ready for the work would be important to investigate with them. You didn't read it so what would you know?

Besides y’all weren’t even arguing from a pedagogy perspective y’all were just trying to out dick size eachother and when I called you out on it you immediately go oH wElL iM a TeAcHeR

Because your simplistic perspective is just short sighted, you called nothing out but your own imagination and misinterpretation. If you read my responses to here amongst what I wrote I invited analysis of the pieces by those who erroneously suggested Scarbo was easier. I've been a teacher for decades and discussed teacher subjects on here for almost 20 years so whats your point? My interaction here has nothing to do with gloating, that is ridiculously simplistic and mindless, I wouldn't be bothered doing that for 20 years on a forum, you think I'm that bored??? You tend to think everyone behaves like the narrative you see in your head which is just not what is happening in reality.

[eric bowles]

LIW, would appreciate it if you could share your real name.  I want to make sure that I never entrust one of my children into your care.  You may well be a fantastic pianist and have mastered certain pedagogical techniques but your dismissive, belittling and generally discourteous interactions on this thread are “proof” that you are unfit as a teacher on a human level.

[lostinidlewonder]

LIW, would appreciate it if you could share your real name.  I want to make sure that I never entrust one of my children into your care.  You may well be a fantastic pianist and have mastered certain pedagogical techniques but your dismissive, belittling and generally discourteous interactions on this thread are “proof” that you are unfit as a teacher on a human level.

Well this is just an unsubstantiated opinion. Your caustic response doesn't say much about your sense of what constitutes "politeness". Just because there is a disagreement means nothing, are people always supposed to walk on eggshells and agree? I think your "appreciate" is a thinly veiled word without any positive nor constructive meaning at all

We debate the ideas not the person, if you want to try and drag the person into it that's just off topic. One also has to realise pianostreet has in the past had people creating multiple accounts to respond to themselves so that too contributes to the tone of this thread, just like you created an account to respond here with caustic remarks about a person you don't know.

I've devoted 20 years answering questions on pianostreet, debating subjects and helping others, you just create an account to fling insults?

[eric bowles]

Let me start by apologizing.  I read over the thread and got worked up by the lack of civility I detected on your part and, unfortunately, responded in kind.  I find it most unfortunate that people hide behind the anonymity of a user handle to state matters in a way they likely would never dare to, if their identity were revealed.  This explains, in part, my use of my actual name.  Nothing to hide (well, at least with respect to what I say online).

My objective was to call out unbecoming language and responses and my “opinion” remains unchanged.  In your response, you indicate that my opinion is “unsubstantiated.”  Without purporting to provide an exhaustive list, let me provide some examples of things stated that, “IMHO”, qualify as support for said opinion (emphasis added):

“People who can play both will find (sic) Gaspard more difficult any other answer is from a made up personna.”

“Honestly if people have the capability to play either they will realize that Gaspard is much more difficult, those who put question to this simply reveal that they are not at that standard.”

“Show us exact bars and explain how the technique in Islamey is harder. Oh (sic) whats that? You (sic) cant? Awww too bad.”

“Nice story, your made up teacher should have realized the (sic) arpgeggio techniques of the Scarbo (sic) is extremely difficult and no amount of Islamey will help prepare for that.”

“They surely do know better since everything you said here is just a made up story in your own head.”

“I’m responding to your confused rants so if my replies sound to you random then you are only reading replies to your own ideas, aww what a shame. (…) So dumb.”

“Gosh did you forget to take your medication today?”

“(A)nyone that believes anything you say here is just as delusional as you are.  You just make up ideas and run with (sic) it, that is what crazy people do (…)”

“I think maybe you have forgotten to take some of your medication today (…)”

“You are living in a little bubble of your own making and refuse to think outside your little box. Are we supposed to help you with that?”

“I don’t care what you read or not, it’s OK you won’t understand it anyway, here’s a tissue and some copium tablets”


I trust the above to provide support for my “opinion.”  That said, to the extent that one believes that the above-quoted statements are examples of constructive dialogue, this reply will fall on deaf ears.  As a related matter, I would gently suggest that you – and everyone else – avoid recourse to mental illness allusions when seeking to “constructively rebut” someone else’s position (see above highlighted references to “medication” and “crazy people”).  That should have no place in civil discourse.

[lostinidlewonder]

Let me start by apologizing.

Again you use thinly veiled politeness filled with obvious negativity. Is weakly hiding your intentions and being passive aggressive your definition of civil discourse? Lol.

You have taken responses completely out of context from what they are replying to and also removed their continuations, that simply supports your negative bias. You are being quite ridiculous. In debates you need to highlight what I am respond to, do that and your critique will become nullified.

Why don't you read from the start again and where I started out without debating anyone at all. Notice it was only until crazy responses began that I ramped up my position. In fact the first "uncivilised" response as you might put it was when I was called a terrible musician for suggesting we compare actual bars of music. So if you really are soooo interested in this all, start again from the beginning and notice when things started to get into a heated debate. Also there is no problems with heated debates, you think we all have to be aristocratic ladies and gentlemen? You do realise this is the internet??

If you disagree with how I debate and think you have to try and "call me out" for it or are the authority of what "civil discourse" is, then you really need to get off the internet. People will not always do things in the way you prefer. And if you think you need to remove the speck from my eye, look at the log in your own first , your very first reply to pianostreet is utterly unhelpful and takes a high horse thinking you are so much more better and know what it means to be "human". I've posted thousands of helpful posts and helped thousands of people, how helpful are you being?

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Stupid, long, insulting post by incompetent user who's probably just someone's alt.

I'm not even going to try to respond to all of your points individually. I'm just going to say that LIIW is 100% correct and point out that you created an account just now to sling off-topic insults at someone who's been on this forum for 20+ years, which could very well be longer than you've been alive. That's all.
On the actual topic of the thread, I feel like Scarbo alone is somewhat harder than Islamey, while Le Gibet and Ondine just add insult to injury.
While I was reading through this thread, I noticed a few people comparing these pieces to Petrushka, which I feel is fair in comparison to Gaspard. I personally feel like Gaspard vs. Islamey is a david vs. goliath comparison (gaspard is much harder), but Petrushka is only slightly less difficult than Gaspard. I feel like all 3 are at least somewhat comparable to each set of Chopin etudes in entirety (e.g regarding both op. 10 and op. 25 as a singular piece each).
Keep in mind that I've played very little of any of the pieces I've mentioned here, and my statements are based exclusively on watching what others have said and listening to what they've done. As I always say, take any and all of my statements regarding difficulties with a grain of salt.