Piano Concerto Question

[imnotapianist]

Hi, I have a question concerning piano music that I'm wondering if I could have your guys' opinion on. Recently, my teacher wanted me to listen to some piano concertos to play, and I listened to Rach 2 and Tchaikovsky 1. Something that bugged me was the fact that the most recognizable melody was stored in the orchestra, not the piano. When I was young, I played a little violin and learned the Vivaldi concertos, and I always thought that a proper concerto was the violin playing a solo while the orchestra supplements depth. Additionally, I was always used to a concerto where the orchestra would start of with a theme and then the soloist would repeat the theme or develop off of that specific theme. But when I listened to Rach 2 especially, it kinda shocked me how it wasn't the piano playing the solo, but the piano was supplementing an orchestra. My question is, is it supposed not to feel right? Is there a purpose that the orchestra gets an elevated role? Shouldn't it be called something else other than a concerto?


I don't know if this is a good question or not but have at it.

[imnotapianist]

*bit of violin

I played a full-sized violin, just to clarify, but I never played past Suzuki book 6, sadly. I love the Sibelius violin concerto, though.

[quantum]

First of all, Vivaldi was from a different time period than Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff. One would expect differences in style and structure. 

No person sets out rules saying, this is what a concerto is, and what all concertos should sound like - such would result in tragically uninspiring music void of culture.  There is no such thing as a "proper concerto."  Generalizations and formulas are made as music theorists observe patterns that developed as composers wrote their music.  One can speak of characteristic trends used: from time period, style, nationality, etc., but there is no black and white line that says x composition is a concerto, and y is not.  It is better to keep the mindset of discovering what a concerto could be rather than dictating what it should be. 


In general most concertos can be described as soloist or soloists combined with an ensemble or orchestra.  There is no certain requirement that the soloist gets the nice tune all the time.  Just like in piano solo works, there is nothing that says the top right hand line always has to have the prettiest melody. 

Have a listen to the Schumann Concerto.  The piano part is not what you may think of a typical solo role in a concerto.  (Have a read what has been written here on Pianostreet about the Schumann Concerto    )





 

[imnotapianist]

Just listened to it. I kinda see what you mean. Well, I love Schumann in general, like Op. 17 and his Ghost Variations, but this is concerto is a bit different but very interesting nonetheless. Thank you.

Maybe just a follow-up question, on the topic of violin, the Tchaikovsky 1st Piano Concerto and the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto are drastically different in style and character, even though they come from the same composer. For example, the orchestra usually plays a subsidiary role while in the piano concerto the orchestra contributes way more. And take again Rach 2 or Liszt 2, where there is even a solo from an orchestral instrument (Flute, and Cello, respectively both in the second movement). And contrast that with something like the Sebelius or the Mendelsohn violin concertos, where it's practically all violin. Has anyone noticed it and if so, Why for this change in soloist-orchestra relationship?

On a side note, I think Liszt 2 should be called the Cello-Piano Concerto instead.

[quantum]

For example, the orchestra usually plays a subsidiary role while in the piano concerto the orchestra contributes way more.

Think of this from an orchestration and ensemble blending standpoint.  What would happen if you had heavily active orchestral part on top of a solo violin?  The orchestra would overwhelm the solo violin.  Contrast that to the piano which is able to cut through a thicker orchestration.  Also consider timbre, there are many violins within common orchestral setups, but it is far less common to have a piano as part of an orchestral part for a piano concerto.  With a piano solo, you are able to achieve separation through timbre, not so with violin.  The composer has to find other means of differentiating orchestra from soloist.  Consider polyphony, how many simultaneous pitches can a violin play, compare to piano.  Chordal passages can easily be incorporated into a piano solo, thus the composer also adapts the orchestration to make chordal passages in the solo instrument fit. 

[imnotapianist]

But by your logic about the violin sound being able to blend into the orchestra, that means that the violin should ideally have more accompanying roles to the orchestra since the sounds blend in, but when you use the piano to accompany an orchestral melody, then you're making the piano stick out with its timbre, which is totally counterintuitive to the role of accompaniment...but in reality, piano concertos have accompaniment way more frequently than violin concertos do.

accompaniment/harmony, I don't know which word to use but I mean supplementing a melody, whether that be in the orchestra or the soloist.

[thalbergmad]

It was very common with the early romantics for the piano to do the bulk of the work. Thalberg, Kalkbrenner, Moscheles, Pixis, Dreyschock, Chopin, the list in endless and many could be played as solo.
As the century progressed there was generally a greater balance and composers like Litolff actually named his works Concerto Symphonique to illustrate this.
Many of the later romantics were of a similar vein and in some cases the piano was almost accompanied by the orchestra.

[brogers70]

Charles Rosen's "The Classical Style" is a classic. It's also pretty dry and academic. But it contains the following gem of a sentence from the chapter on the concerto....

"The most important fact about concerto form is that the audience waits for the soloist to enter, and when he stops playing, they wait for him to begin again."

May not help with the original question, but I love it.