Key signatures doubt

[j_tour]

I've been told by tuba players that some of them end up preferring tubas pitched in C for orchestral work and Bb for band, because of easier fingering.

That's very interesting:  I've never really talked music with any tuba players (tubists?), and I had no idea they had a common variant in key.  Yeah, everyone knows about the C concert trumpet, and I know about the French horn Bb/F thing, but I never knew about the tuba.  Isn't the baritone horn in some odd key, like C concert or something?  I'm sure it's in one of the arranging textbooks I have around somewhere, but beyond the regular Bb or Eb transposing instruments, I never have any reason to write charts for the other brass instruments.

Could come in handy if I end up working in Dixieland revival bands at some point.

Check me if I'm wrong, though:  I've only ever played reed/wind instruments to any degree, but isn't it less the fingering, but more the embouchure in a brass instrument, regardless of the size of the instrument?

Bit of a tangent, but it does relate to a subtopic in this thread.

[keypeg]

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[j_tour]

YOU are bullying ME.  And making it awkward for the two people involved, who had a decent conversation and understanding by communicating before you inserted yourself.  I am not going to quote those particular statements that I had objected to,in order to "answer" you, which is why I haven't, because that would be bringing forth negatives after they were cleared up, and are no longer valid.   You are making a mess.

Wesley Willis, the late noted songsmith, composer, and performer had a charming tune which he called "Richard Speck."

[dogperson]

Just a thought: when pejorative words are publicly written, doesn’t it now become fair game for public comment and no longer a conversation between two people?

[timothy42b]

That's very interesting:  I've never really talked music with any tuba players (tubists?), and I had no idea they had a common variant in key.  Yeah, everyone knows about the C concert trumpet, and I know about the French horn Bb/F thing, but I never knew about the tuba.  Isn't the baritone horn in some odd key, like C concert or something?

With brass instruments it is easy to get confused between the key of the instrument and the key of the sheet music.

The four common keys of tuba are C, Bb, Eb, and F.  (sometimes written as CC because they're an octave low) I have personally never played any but the Bb.  But all of my tuba playing has been in band; while I've played occasionally in an orchestra it has always been on trombone.  Most of the tuba players I know are band players and bring a BBb.  I've talked with orchestral players who use a CC for most of their work.  As far as I know it's partly an ease of fingering technical passages and partly an intonation thing - all valved instruments have some compromises in tuning for reasons of physics. 

However the sheet music also is written in various keys, different from key signature.  On piano we read concert pitch - middle C is always middle C.  That isn't true for some other instruments.  On clarinet and trumpet we read "Bb treble," meaning when we see a C on the staff, we call it a C, but the pitch that we play is actually Bb.  On French horn when they play a C it comes out an F.  Occasionally I have to read French horn music on a trombone, so for C on the staff I will play an F.  If I am playing on my Bb pitched trombone, I will play it in 1st position (or an alternate like 4th or 6th).  But on my Eb trombone, I will play it in 3rd (or an alternate).  The sheet music for French horn will say "horn in F" (usually, there are other possibilities) but the instrument itself is pitched in Bb. 

In band music normally there are two identical baritone parts, one written in C concert bass clef, and one in Bb treble clef.  When I play baritone i ask for whichever part the other person doesn't play so I don't have to share music.  If I'm playing the Bb treble part I have to remember to add two flats to the written key signature.  American trombone bandmusic is written in C concert but brass band music is written in Bb treble. 

[j_tour]

American trombone bandmusic is written in C concert but brass band music is written in Bb treble.

That's kind of lazy of them to not provide a transposed part!  (IIRC both valve and regular trombones are Bb instruments).

Not that it's especially hard to sight-transpose, especially from, here, a whole step (I used to read a long, long time ago some jazz trumpet solos at the keyboard and go the opposite direction).  Still not ideal, though:  hence why all the fake books have Eb and Bb versions as well as concert key (well, the good ones, anyway).

[timothy42b]

A good bit of orchestral trombone music is written in three clefs - bass for the third, tenor for the second, alto for the first.  So we need to be comfortable with all. 

It's silly, really; write it on the piano great staff.  None of us play above that top line F (jazzers do, but not classical) and the ledger line and clef problems go away.  But that's not the way it's done. 

[keypeg]

Wesley Willis, ....

I deleted what you quoted, for a reason.

Just a thought: when pejorative words are publicly written, doesn’t it now become fair game for public comment and no longer a conversation between two people?

When there is actual intentional nastiness, then that is the place for moderators to be notified and stepped in.  Too often forums deteriorate into sides, squabbles, and toxicity.

This started with a misunderstanding, which got rectified when Joe responded to me, and I responded back to Joe.  I didn't know he had already deleted his post: I had thought my response would preempt that.  I was probably triggered by what seemed a put-down for not knowing things, and I was wrong about that - Joe guessed that part and I corroborated.  I did not want to explain that to LiW, because it brings the negatives up again after they were cleared up, and so I left it with stressing the value of the information that Joe had provided.  That was also a message to Joe.  It's a lot more awkward when someone else comes barging in.

Joe explained other things in responding to me.  Above all - he has been working very hard on music, has been doing his homework, and then come here with questions.  He hardly gets any answers.  Then this other person asks simple things, which he probably could indeed figure out or find - but may want instant answers - and gets them!  While Joe is still waiting.  I think he has a point.  And he should be heard on this.

I just checked.  One person in particular has taken the pains to try to answer; J_tour.  I've been working round the clock since June: for some reason the Pandemic has had the opposite effect in my work.  His questions came during that busy period, and were less easy to answer.  The question here came while I was coming up for air, and I could simply recycle my usual spiel about keys and such.

I already put in my list of intents to go look at Joe's questions and see if I have any input.  They are interesting, thoughtful, and thought-provoking.  How about going there if you haven't, folks?

To 1piano4joe, I do regret that you deleted your post, and also the tone that I took.  This is not written because of LiW's "lecture".  The lecture merely makes it awkward.  You should not cease to post here.  And if you don't get answers as fast, it's probably because your questions are not as easy to answer - which proves their worth in answering.

[keypeg]

I am rethinking some things.  Back when I was lost about key signatures, there was also no Internet and no resources.   Someone asking now isn't in the same situation I was then.  So I'm of two minds: the info should be findable and there's a lot of good, well-explained stuff out there - but it can also have been taught poorly, or approached from the wrong angle so a person is genuinely lost and needs a nudge.

[lostinidlewonder]

To 1piano4joe, I do regret that you deleted your post, and also the tone that I took.  This is not written because of LiW's "lecture".  The lecture merely makes it awkward.  You should not cease to post here.  And if you don't get answers as fast, it's probably because your questions are not as easy to answer - which proves their worth in answering.

Actually you made it awkward by calling an informative post "condescending and insulting", are you a Queen or royalty?? What the hell is the lecture I gave? lol.

Pianostreet doesn't get many responses and if we have someone calling informative posts "condescending and insulting" just because it wasn't in a tone that they wanted then they should instead simply shut up and put up with it.

Here's a prime example of easily offended loud marginalized minorities reacting to free infromation: https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2845538/1.html
It seems a pattern and I will happily call it out and stomp on it.

[keypeg]

I'm hesitating to continue the OT.

Here's a prime example of easily offended loud marginalized minorities reacting to free infromation: https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2845538/1.html
It seems a pattern and I will happily call it out and stomp on it.

Your post there is addressed to teachers, and you wrote of the situation of a particular type of student.  Some teachers reacted to your post, I suppose feeling blamed or lectured to.  Here is part of the opening post.

A poor teacher will ignore your past and expect you to recreate yourself immediately and if you are unable you are left feeling a failure and it is all your fault. You feel guilty, stupid, useless, nothing is able to be built up because you are so distraught that what you had before is useless. The teacher will blame you for your inability to recreate yourself or keep up with their regime, they are unbending in the way they teach if you cannot follow their method "to the t" then you simply are not worthy of improving. They ignore your personal journey, they have no sensitivity to connect with that.

You portrayed it very well. A student like that, may well end up with scars even if they are lucky enough to get a good teacher to turn it around in all aspects.  There can still be triggers, that bring you back to those times.  If you see it said that at a given "level" one "ought to be able to" know or do something - or someone else "ought to" - it can be a flashback moment, which never has clarity of thought and is always emotion.  This bit was in the message, and I reacted to that part, on a rather bad day.  I usually make a point of not posting on bad days.  I also did not understand the whole message as it was written and intended. The emotional content was also that this other student (OP) was getting loads of help, while the writer was being mostly ignored when asking questions.

[themeandvariation]

Triple-Flats:"This term refers to an accidental symbol that lowers a note by three semitones (or three half steps). This symbol is indicated by three flat (♭) symbols preceding the note. ... Most musicians (professional or amateur) will never see or perform a triple flat in their entire musical career."

Might as well throw triple-flats and triple-sharps into the equation of calculating how many sharps or flats could be applied to a key signature.  This could produce a yield of 21 sharps or flats to a key signature. Yay.

Quadruple flats, anyone? 

[lostinidlewonder]

Some teachers reacted to your post, I suppose feeling blamed or lectured to. 

There lies the problem, they "feel" or interpret the information which is utterlly subjective in that context and thus discuss issues which has nothing to do with the topic itself but feelings. I offered information for free without taking it personally or writing about specific individuals (other than my own decades of experiences), it was written in generalisation, a view of the landscape of how things are sometimes done and how we as teachers could react to it. Many in that post felt threatened in some form and you can see all those loud individuals never actually taking anything serious but crying about the all things to do with the number of words I use, the tone of the post or what their "feelings" are like.

If people feel negative about a post why don't they address the actual information rather than subjective issues? That is much more useful and convincing. I always hold close to my heart that successful people will want others to have success and failures will try to bring down whatever you say, and if what you say is informative they will pick on issues which are simply irrelevant.

[keypeg]

I thought I saw somewhere the idea that if a person doesn't have a grasp of key signatures, it's a sign that they simply haven't read enough music yet.  I can't find the post.  So here's an example of what can go wrong, from my own story, when you don't have the right guidance, or guiding material.  Keep in mind that I started learning way before the Internet, and had no teacher; only two handed down books of repertoire.

We had sung movable Do solfege scales and little exercises like: do re mi, do re mi fa, re mi fa so ... patterns.  So I had the sound of major and natural minor scales in my ear.  I was given a little organ at 8; a starter booklet for adults of about 12 pages 90% in the key of C.  I learned which piano key corresponded to the 4th space up (i.e. C).  I knew "the last sharp is Ti / the last flat is Fa".   So if I find Ti, I know the note above it is Do, and then I start singing what's on the page with that major or minor scale in my ear (The minor Tonic was La).  Then find the Do note on the piano, play what I could sing, and try to make it sound right.  That's what I had.  Only that.  The music I had to play was basically all diatonic, so it worked.

So if this is all you know, say your piece is in E major, and it starts descending from E.  You want to hear Do Ti La So.  But when you play D, it sounds off, so you adjust it to sound right (D#), ditto for C, then the B sounds right, etc.  So you're feeling your way around for a whole piece - it's tedious.  Since this is all I knew, mostly I stayed with one sharp / flat, or less.  There was no piano after age 18, until my mid-fifties.  One day I discovered, when my child was told while I attended the lesson, the repeated pattern in keys along the circle of fifths, and that door was unlocked.  Sort of.

My first actual lessons were on violin.  That by ear Do Re Mi works beautifully there.  First levels of music tend to be diatonic.  You don't really need to know key signatures: that is, my old "find Do" and then "play the sound" worked well.  I learned to play scales in all the keys for major and the three parallel minors.  It's simply Do Re Mi - Tone Tone Semitone - at a different starting pitch for Do.   I managed to do all that without ever really understanding how to apply or use key signatures.  It took three years to figure out that I wasn't reading music in any conventional sense.  For violin, I was indeed playing pieces in D, A, E major, and the broken chords; some Db etc. But the sharps and flats were still no more than "Find Do through the last one".

This doesn't work on piano, because you have white keys that become black.  You actually have to get a handle on key signatures; and scales.  My big challenge has been to learn to relate notes on the page to piano keys, and see them - because I hear the whole melody as I stare at the notation, hear it in solfege, and all else vanishes.  That's no good when music gets complicated, or non-diatonic. 

It's always best if you can get a well rounded introduction to music so that you start off in the right way, and can build from there.  If you did get that, it may seem incomprehensible when people get lost in "obvious" things.

[j_tour]

I thought I saw somewhere the idea that if a person doesn't have a grasp of key signatures, it's a sign that they simply haven't read enough music yet.  I can't find the post.

I believe I said that, or something very similar.

Your anecdote of becoming accustomed to solfège in moveable-'do' is very well taken, but I'm still convinced that by reading at the keyboard, regularly, all kinds of music, there's no need for any tricks.

Of course the cycle/circle of fifths and fourths is fundamental, but I don't think it's really necessary as a keyboard player to use flash cards or anything.

Wouldn't you say about the dozenth time one reads music in Eb or Cm, one just gets used to it? 

A more interesting theoretical example would be to spend time sight-transposing music, rather than just grinding out "G, D, A, E" and so forth. 

Supposedly back in the bebop days, some characters used to indicate the key of the next tune by using fingers upwards, to indicate how many sharps, or downwards, for flats.  1946 is a little before my time, and I don't really believe that was a common practice (in my experience, lets say fifty years later, someone just starts playing a tune and it's either the regular key on the recording, or at least one of at most two or three common keys for a specific tune, or you fumble for a few seconds while you figure it out, or eventually look at the bassist's hands and so forth, or if you really screw up, somebody will just yell the right key at you with words). 

At the end, I just don't think there's any substitute than to actually use the key signatures, whether through writing, transposing (by hand, producing written transposed parts, or by sight-transposing when reading), or simply playing a whole bunch of music in different keys.

[ranjit]

I thought I saw somewhere the idea that if a person doesn't have a grasp of key signatures, it's a sign that they simply haven't read enough music yet.  I can't find the post.

I agree with this, actually. While I don't know movable-do solfege, I think I have a decent ear. I can play most simple stuff by ear, and can improvise (I think) decently well. Still, I can't recognize a key signature immediately -- I need to think for a few seconds, walk up the circle of fifths, imagine it on the keyboard, whatever. I attribute this to the fact that I only really started reading music a few months ago.

[timothy42b]

Supposedly back in the bebop days, some characters used to indicate the key of the next tune by using fingers upwards, to indicate how many sharps, or downwards, for flats.  1946 is a little before my time, and I don't really believe that was a common practice (in

It still happens.  Hold up one finger, and we're going to the key of G.  I remember my trombone teacher mentioning it.  I never play in a setting where that would matter to me, but it does to others. 

My brother made his living playing trad jazz for a while, and he said if someone annoying wanted to jam with them they would just switch to a key that player couldn't handle.  Some keys are inherently difficult on some instruments, and some just because of unfamiliarity.

For me there are two separate aspects to this topic.  In order to play in all keys, you have to work at all of them, including the ones we don't see often, like B major, etc., but you don't necessarily need to know what key you're in.  You see 5 sharps on the page, you remember which notes need to be altered.  You're playing a march, it's probably going to add a flat in the trio, but all you need to do is remember to play that note correctly.  The fact it went from Eb to Ab is immaterial.  But if you haven't done your homework in Ab you're probably going to play wrong notes. 

The other part of that is recognizing the tonality.  To me that matters more for playing by ear or adding harmony, something I'm working on but haven't had to do a lot of.  I do a little playing by ear each day in multiple keys, using degrees of the scale like keypeg mentioned with movable do. 

[j_tour]

It still happens.  Hold up one finger, and we're going to the key of G.  I remember my trombone teacher mentioning it.  I never play in a setting where that would matter to me, but it does to others. 

No kidding.  I always thought it sounded a bit urban-legendish, but apparently not.

My brother made his living playing trad jazz for a while, and he said if someone annoying wanted to jam with them they would just switch to a key that player couldn't handle.

Ah.  The classic.  Definitely not an urban legend! 

Keyboardists are immune to that little trick!  Well, they're supposed to be.