about twelve-tone serialism

[kalospiano]

I haven't quite understood a few things about twelve-tone compositions and I hope somebody here might shed some light on this subject.

As per wikipedia, these are the postulates:

1 - The row is a specific ordering of all twelve notes of the chromatic scale (without regard to octave placement).
2 - No note is repeated within the row.
3 - The row may be subjected to interval-preserving transformations—that is, it may appear in inversion (denoted I), retrograde (R), or retrograde-inversion (RI), in addition to its "original" or prime form (P).
4 - The row in any of its four transformations may begin on any degree of the chromatic scale; (...)

First of all, how does it work when there are multiple instruments? As per postulate 2, is one instrument supposed not to play a note if another instrument has already played it, or does each player have his own row to care about, without regard to the other players? Or only certain instruments are subject to respecting the row while other instruments can accompany with normal harmony?

Secondly, wikipedia also states that "postulate 2 does not mean, contrary to common belief, that no note in a twelve-tone work can be repeated until all twelve have been sounded"- therefore, what does postulate 2 mean? I suppose this might refer to polyphony as per my first question, so different rows are layered accross different instruments: two musicians are playing different rows at the same time, so the same note might appear twice in total before the end of the row, although only once in each row...

Third: the four postulates don't seem to imply that the notes should not be ordered in such a way to suggest a certain chord, so it wouldn't be a problem at all to start a row playing a C major arpeggio followed by a D minor arpeggio, is that correct?

Final point: wikipedia says "Although usually atonal, twelve tone music need not be". I thought twelve-tone serialism had been invented with the purpose to give a formal framework to create atonal works. If that's not the case, what was it created for? And how does one go about creating "real" atonal pieces? Just whole tone scale, diminished and augmented chords from start to finish?

I hope I didn't drag on too much... Thanks in advance to anybody who might help!

[Bob]

I'm not an expert.  Just some random thoughts...



It's more of the idea of avoiding tonality, if they doing that with tone rows.  I think you could have tonal tone rows if you wanted, but that's not really why they came about.



"First of all, how does it work when there are multiple instruments? As per postulate 2, is one instrument supposed not to play a note if another instrument has already played it, or does each player have his own row to care about, without regard to the other players? Or only certain instruments are subject to respecting the row while other instruments can accompany with normal harmony?"

I think they can play notes at the same time.  I'm pretty sure.  It just isnt' supposed to point much to a tonal center.  If you play all twelve notes at once, then there's probably not a tonal center... probably.  I'm wondering though about something like a dim 7 chord.  It's not completely atonal.  It's pointing in a few directions for a tonal center.

It would be for the overall piece though, not just one instrument playing its own tonal line, although they could do that too if it works.  You can't have the overal piece pointing towards tonal centers.


"Secondly, wikipedia also states that "postulate 2 does not mean, contrary to common belief, that no note in a twelve-tone work can be repeated until all twelve have been sounded"- therefore, what does postulate 2 mean? "

You can't repeat a note again in a 12 tone row (making a 13 tone row).  Although if you're composing, you can do whatever you want.  For a 12 tone row following the rules, it's 12 tones in the order you decide.  You can't repate one of the tones again and leave one out.  I guess you can't leave one out...?  I remember seeing something about  6 tone row I think.... But if you're composing, it doesn't point toward tonality, then sure, you can make a 6 tone row. 

I think they mean what you could do is make something like two quick 8ths in a row, and that represents one tone.  If you can't keep hammering away, repeating a note though, or it might start establishing tonality, esp if it's low pitched.  But if you did note 1, 2, 3-3, 4.... If you just repeated a note twice and quickly it's one tone for the row.



"Third: the four postulates don't seem to imply that the notes should not be ordered in such a way to suggest a certain chord, so it wouldn't be a problem at all to start a row playing a C major arpeggio followed by a D minor arpeggio, is that correct?"

Yeah, that's a big problem.  I don't think there are chords/triads because it's pointing at tonality.  You would purposely avoid a C Major triad and d minor triad.  It had already been done so they were trying to avoid that.



"Although usually atonal, twelve tone music need not be".

Yep, that's what I heard.  Someone came up with 12 tone as a way to organize something, anything, to move even further away from tonality.  But that same technique could be used on tonal music too.  What are you really going to end up when you do that though?  If you do use a C Major triad, then that's one thing, and that pattern has been use d a lot.... How's it going to sound that much different from previous music?



" thought twelve-tone serialism had been invented with the purpose to give a formal framework to create atonal works."

That's what I heard.



"And how does one go about creating "real" atonal pieces? Just whole tone scale, diminished and augmented chords from start to finish?"

By avoiding anything that points or hints at tonality.  I think whole tone scales, etc. had already been done, but with a tonal center still.  it was getting farther away from being more tonal.  You'd have to know what is creating tonality and avoid it.  You've already mentioned a few things.  You can't have a triad.  That's too tonal.  I'm thinking back... I'm not sure you can even use thirds.  Or if you do, if you separate them so there's enough distance it doesn't start sounding like a triad, then ok.  You can repeat a note, but not too much.  If it's a low note it might have more power to start being heard as the center or the root of a chord. 

The 12 tones ordered so they don't indicate tonality was the new idea I think.  Or even just ordering some tones in an order that doesn't indicate tonality, but you've got 12 notes so there's a pressure to use all of them, and use all equally.  The other ideas -- retrograde, inversion, retrograde inversion -- had already been done.  After you play through a string a notes, then what?  Play them again?  Then what?  Reverse the order.... Flip it upside down.... Flip it and reverse the order (or reverse it and flip it?)....

[j_tour]

Final point: wikipedia says "Although usually atonal, twelve tone music need not be". I thought twelve-tone serialism had been invented with the purpose to give a formal framework to create atonal works. If that's not the case, what was it created for? And how does one go about creating "real" atonal pieces? Just whole tone scale, diminished and augmented chords from start to finish?

I hope I didn't drag on too much... Thanks in advance to anybody who might help!

Your final point is the most interesting one, to me:  to answer that, I think one has to know a bit about high-modernist techniques in all of the arts, and the cultural effects that WWI created.  The collapse of Austria-Hungary.  It's complicated, and I can't pretend to answer it. 

One accessible, very famous short book is Toulmin and Janik's Wittgenstein's Vienna, but that's just an example of a light pop-culture book on what is a very complicated era, in all aspects.

About the rest, the main source I used when learning the theory was the composer George Perle's textbooks on serialism.  In this case, George Perle was more of a guide to me, and it was by studying the scores that was the real "textbook," but that's likely true of studying any period of music.  Yes, Schönberg's Harmonielehre is a fascinating book, but it doesn't really have much content on serialism.  Just an interesting take on standard major-minor common practice period theory.

You have to understand that the development of serialism and the development of atonality took place over many years.  Decades, really.  So-called "integral serialism" didn't really take off as a precompositional method until well after the earlier experiments of Schönberg and Berg.

There could be made a pretty persuasive argument that just as John Cage's aleatoric linguistic products depended upon his selection, just so did did the "serialism" of Berg, Schönberg, and earlier Webern. 

Adorno has quite a lot to answer for, in terms of his work as a theorist, and as a writer in general, but his short book on Berg is about as clear a statement as one could find about the ways in which tonal principles and experimentalism combined at a certain point in the second Viennese school.

I think there's someone here who actually wrote his or her doctoral dissertation about Berg, including his Op. 1 sonata.

I'd caution about the Wikipedia entries on this and other technical subjects:  IME, often they're written by grad students who have the right idea but not necessarily the experience to write in the appropriate register.

But, what you say in your OP seems about right to me. 

There are a lot of questions you ask, though, so it's difficult to decide which one to tackle first.

And, no, I'm not an expert at all, just regular, standard-issue musician.

[kalospiano]

Thank you both for your views on this! I feel that there's quite a bit of disagreement generally on what can and cannot be done in a twelve tone composition. I got some very thorough responses in a reddit thread, so if you wanna find out more you might check this discussion. Cheers!
https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/comments/k4vvvp/about_twelve_tone_serialism/

[j_tour]

Thank you both for your views on this! I feel that there's quite a bit of disagreement generally on what can and cannot be done in a twelve tone composition. I got some very thorough responses in a reddit thread, so if you wanna find out more you might check this discussion. Cheers!
https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/comments/k4vvvp/about_twelve_tone_serialism/

I don't see anything in that subreddit of relevance to your multiple questions, except superficially, but I'm glad you were able to find what you wanted.

[kalospiano]

I don't see anything in that subreddit of relevance to your multiple questions, except superficially, but I'm glad you were able to find what you wanted.

Really?    Not sure why you feel that way... Both users 65TwinReverbRI and Xenoceratops gave me extremely detailed responses.

[brogers70]

The fifth lecture in Leonard Bernstein's series "The Unanswered Question," deals with serial music. The whole six lecture series is worth the time.

He does mention little bits of tonality in some of Berg's tone rows around 1:06:00 and beyond.