Bach Invention No.1 progress, preparation, method & questions

[1piano4joe]

Hi all,

Questions first:

1. Is this piece too hard for me?
2. Am I at the point of diminishing returns? How should I be able to tell?
3. Did I do enough AMB notebook preparation? I mean just how much is enough or too little?
4. Did all the other Baroque pieces I've studied help ready me for inventions?
5. Did I make the very common mistake of starting them too soon?
6. How long should this take to learn if it's at your level?
7. I've learned maybe around 500 easier pieces. Is that not enough?
8. I have studied at least a dozen easier inventions. So, they should have helped, right? Maybe they did? I'm not so sure but then again they were much, much easier.
 
Preparations:

1. I've listened/watched many Youtube videos.
2. I've looked at practically every score at IMSLP.
3. I think I have excellent fingerings figured out and written on every note.
4. I read many, many posts here about this piece.

Method/approach/progress:

Wed. 3/17/21 H.S. worked up to crotchet=80; H.T.=14 (1st day Hands together) and played very cleanly.
This is a RCM Level 7 List A piece and suggested tempo is 69-80.

Thurs. 3/18/21 Fast small spurts H.T.

Fri. 3/19/21 H.T. =18 This is a 28.6% improvement from Wed. I guess I got a lot of PPI from yesterday. Those short speed bursts worked miracles! This would come to be my biggest daily percentage improvement. Still very clean.

Sun. 3/21/21 H.T.=20

Mon. 3/22/21 H.T. I did some.

Tues. 3/23/21 Finger revisions research necessary. I find trills fingered 3232 best for speed and control (I do start them on the upper note). H.T.=25 and spot practiced.

Wed. 3/24/21 Morning session H.T.=30 & later session H.T.=35. I attribute this to the fingering changes I made the day before. Identified some parts that needed some TLC and worked on those. Started to get a little sloppy.

Fri. 3/26/21 H.T.=40 & more spot practicing. This is starting to seem impossible to play any faster! I did some H.S.=90 since I'm not sure what else to try.

Sat. 3/37/21 Getting very frustrated and discouraged. Started at H.T.=16 for fluidity and worked up to H.T.=45 and the slower tempo of H.T.=30 is very clean now. I'm not used to working this slow, hard and/or long on a piece but then again this is Bach. H.S.=100 and I figure my fingering must be pretty good for that to happen.

Sun. 3/28/21 H.T.=50 and so, so sloppy! How am I supposed to practice this? What am I doing wrong? I start to question all the practice tips I've read and tried. Should I write in and ask for help? I just don't know. This is my 4th invention. Supposedly, one of the easier ones. I'm beginning to question if maybe I'm just not ready for them or practicing properly? I find this kind of hard to believe. I may just move on to something else.

Tues. 3/30/21 I'm fed up. This is ultimatum, do or die day for me. Let's do this. I worked up to H.S.=120 with hiccups but I just don't care about hiccups. I got to get those fingers moving. I'm thinking "fundamentals" by Chang.

Started trudging H.T.=30 & thinking to myself, oh no, not again (Rod Stewart song). Why am I doing this? Why am I so stubborn? There has to be a better way Joseph! Well, while my inner emotional turmoil is raging, I keep dialing up the tempo, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55...

WAIT! What just happened? Progress! Feeling a little better and encouraged somewhat. I stop at H.T.=60. It's been maybe an hour give or take. I slow metronome down to H.T.=45 and play so, so cleanly, fluidly, not one misstep.

So, this is where I'm at. H.S.=120 but "funky" and H.T.=60 with two identifiable trouble spots that I will address tomorrow. Measures 13-14 & 20-21. Apparently, H.S.=100 just wasn't enough. Usually, I find 5 clicks above tempo on the metronome enough but not the case for me here.

Is this about right for 11 days of "good" practice?

Thanks in advance, Joe.

[j_tour]

Is this about right for 11 days of "good" practice?

Yeah, why not?

I think it's a fun one to play rather quickly, sort of as a laugh, but I'm not sure why you need to do that.

To contrast, the Sinfonia in C doesn't sound very good played slowly (to my ear), but the invention in the same key can sound fine at whatever tempo.

Maybe it's one of those cases where understanding the piece, perhaps up to the point of being able to play it in B or C#, might be more fruitful than just trying to apply raw speed when it seems you're not up to that yet.

Maybe, maybe not.

[lettersquash]

Wow, Joe, you're obsessed with the tempo! It's music, the food of love, not the Olympics. Ditch the metronome and fall in love with the piece! I can't promise this will help you, but I had a similar frustration with Invention No.1 and I found a way through like this: I played it much slower than I thought I even needed to to get it right, and focused on how to make it beautiful, every note and phrase. If I found I was faltering, despite going stupidly slowly, I forced myself to slow down even more. Each time I found to my surprise I wasn't playing it more robotically, but finding more emotion, more fun, new depth. The little twists of tempo - rubato - are vital, and metronomes will kill that.

Every now and then, I'd find I was playing it a bit faster, but that wasn't the goal, and as soon as I felt it was, if I tensed up or lost the easy feeling, I slowed right down and found that slow groove again.

I'd also advise against trying to find your perfect way to play it. Instead, make it as new as you like each time. One day you might play a bit more staccato, another more legato. From phrase to phrase, even single notes, you'll start giving them different characters if you listen for it happening and follow your intuition.

I say this was a way through for me. I still can't play it well, but the frustration is gone and every time I play it I feel friendlier towards it, even though not every time will be better than the last - and I don't care if it's faster. Same goes for food and love.

[lelle]

It sounds like you are doing fine!

Keep in mind that if there are certain aspects of your technique that you have not developed far enough yet, certain trouble spots may be difficult to iron out depending on what the issue is. But once your technique has grown, you'll play the same spot with ease without having practise it and wonder why you struggled so much back in the day.

If you eventually get stuck with your progress, it's perfectly fine to switch pieces and continue growing your skill that way.

[1piano4joe]

Hi all,

Just an update on this if anyone is curious.

I worked on this 4/1, 4/3 & today 4/5. This is now flawless at 56 bpm. I can play it hands together even higher than I ever thought imaginable but it seems the faster I go the more mistakes there are to the point where I just fall apart and have to start from some arbitrary place to continue. Maybe this is normal. I don't know.

69 bpm, my target tempo, I can play very well but I haven't played it once without a single mistake which I would like to do. The mistakes are somewhat random. It's funny how on one repetition of the piece, you make a mistake (for whatever reason) in one place and then you play the piece again many, many times and don't make that mistake again but oops... now there is a mistake over here. lol. Next repetition, an odd mistake over there, well I haven't done that before. Too, too funny.

So, all in all, 14 days of practice of about an hour or so, more or less. At the actual piano, that is. It's still not quite there after approximately 14 hours but better than I thought I could manage. I guess I must be doing something right.

This seems like a long time to me as I usually learn a piece sometimes in as a little as a hour, maybe 2 days, 3 or 4 days if it's a 2 pager.

Maybe I just don't challenge myself enough, Joe.

[lettersquash]

Yeah, I know that feeling! Whack-a-mole mistakes. I haven't kept a strict record, but I reckon you're probably learning it faster than I am. I have literally no idea what bpm I'm playing it at though.

I really think the piece is deceptively difficult in a way I haven't quite figured out. Counterpoint is. The Inventions are. But there's something else. It might be that it tricks you into thinking you've settled into a recognisable pattern and then switches. There are lots of changes of note length, scale patterns, inversions and cadences in each hand, some sudden jumps, and the fingering isn't easy. Bars 11-14 just about drove me crazy.

Anyhoo, good to hear of your progress, and you sound more relaxed about it.

[1piano4joe]

Bars 11-14 just about drove me crazy.

Hi lettersquash,

Yes, I had the same problem at first. In particular L.H. measure 11. I have worked out a fingering that allows me to keep my eyes on the score for those 4 measures. I will share them. I like the mostly repetitive nature of this fingering.

Measure 11:

R.H. 3 2    3 4    5 1    3 4
L.H. 4212 3142 3123 4231

Measure 12:

R.H. 5  2   3  1   3  4   5
L.H. 2123 4231 2123 4231

Measure 13:

R.H. 5123 4231 4324  3213
L.H. 2  5   232R  2123  4231

I don't play the L.H. note "e" in measure 13. Instead, that "R" is a 16th rest. The 232 is an lower mordent played very quickly.

Measure 14:

R.H. 1435 4142 1543  3232   12
L.H.  4231 4231 2  5   1          5

The 3232 on beat 4 is a trill beginning on the upper note, so dcdc then ba.

All the trills start on the upper note. Ignore the "Busoni" ornamentation.

I hope that helps you with those measures, Joe.

P.S. I recommend you use a metronome. It will keep you even, show your progress and identify troublesome spots for you.

[j_tour]

I really think the piece is deceptively difficult in a way I haven't quite figured out.

I think that's true.  I'm not qualified to address the tempi approaching quarter note at 120 bpm:  for me that's just an entertaining option when the piece is really absorbed.

I will just add that, it may only have been several years ago (I don't know....time passes quickly these days), that a real "come to Jesus" moment (no, not getting heavy or anything, just as a metaphor) was when I would wake up in a half-asleep, liminal state and hear the two voices of this particular piece.

Sort of like a dream. 

No, I don't know what it takes to internalize a piece to that degree, just that it can happen, unconsciously in my case (meaning, without any willful effort). 

To allay any concerns that I'm trying to be some know-it-all, yesterday I decided while running through the Bb invention that enough is enough, when it comes to my hability at 3-4-5 in the LH, so I'm just going to drill that piece incessantly.  Yeah, those fingers come up all the time, like in the A major Engl. Ste. Bourée II, but it needs more spontanaeity and command, for what I want to do.

[1piano4joe]

I'm not qualified to address the tempi approaching quarter note at 120 bpm.

Hi j_tour,

The 120 bpm is editorial not to mention unrealistic for a developing student. My RCM level 7 repertoire book has a more reasonable tempo indication of 69-80. Most of the YouTube performances by experienced teachers are in this range. In fact, at the lower end.

That's what I observed anyway, Joe.

[j_tour]

Hi j_tour,

The 120 bpm is editorial not to mention unrealistic for a developing student. My RCM level 7 repertoire book has a more reasonable tempo indication of 69-80. Most of the YouTube performances by experienced teachers are in this range. In fact, at the lower end.

That's what I observed anyway, Joe.

Well, yeah.  That's my point:  I think of the rather quick tempi as sort of novelties.  While fun, it shouldn't be the main goal.

In this example, and in others.