Piece recommendation after Chopin Waltz in C# minor

[2hottohandel]

It has taken me about 2 weeks of steady practice to learn the first 2 pages and the last 3 (Which are the same as the first 2) of the Chopin Waltz in C# minor almost up to speed, and I am starting the enharmonic equivalent section. I was wondering how much of a jump in difficulty and skill it would be for me to start Liebestraum No. 3 once I finish it. Other pieces that I have recently are Bach's Prelude and Fugue in E minor, Mozart's Fantasia in D minor, most of the A vous dirias je maman variations, and the 2-line Chopin prelude in a couple of days. If this would not be the best course of action, then please advise which pieces I should work on first before starting Liebestraum (If I should start it at all). Thank you!

Edit:
If it's worth anything, my favorite piano composers to listen are probably Chopin and Mozart

[ranjit]

I was wondering how much of a jump in difficulty and skill it would be for me to start Liebestraum No. 3 once I finish it.

If you want to truly play the Liebestraume, figure out how you plan to manage both the cadenzas. Once you are done with those, you should be golden for the rest of the piece.

[2hottohandel]

The first cadenza looks like parallel 3rds, and the second looks similar, but without intervals, so maybe it shouldn't be too hard? 

[kc_gracie]

Hi. I think Liebestraum will be much more difficult than the C-sharp minor waltz by Chopin. However, that doesn't mean that you can't try and make it a more long term piece to pursue. I think working on it as a longer term, more difficult piece and perhaps another (or more depending on how much you practice a day) easier piece within your grasp would be wise and enjoyable. Because of the cadenzas, and some of the other trickier sections, I would say it will be much harder in comparison, but you should most certainly try, and I encourage playing things that bring you joy. If you takes you months, a year, so be it. If you finish it earlier? No harm done. I would just encourage pursuing multiple pieces so that you don't ever feel stagnant and you are constantly playing things that are harder and on the level of what you can play, if that makes sense. Always good to have a goal in mind on top of the other things you play.

Also, Liszt also wrote a number of other great pieces that are similar level and easier that would be great to pair. Or also more Chopin. I'm a huge fan of both.

Hope this helps in some way.

-KC

[lelle]

The first cadenza looks like parallel 3rds, and the second looks similar, but without intervals, so maybe it shouldn't be too hard? 

It depends on how tricky you find double thirds and how fast you plan on playing them, I guess? The Liebestraum is more difficult than the Waltz, but it does not hurt to try, as long as you drop it if you find that it is not manageable right now. You can always return to it later.

[2hottohandel]

Thank you to both lelle and kc_gracie for your advice. I think that for the moment, I will work on some more manageable pieces, like maybe some Chopin nocturnes as I build up to being able to play things on the level of Liebestraum.

[lelle]

Sounds good! Do you have a teacher at this moment?

[2hottohandel]

Yes I do! I haven't discussed this with her because I don't want her to think that I don't completely trust her judgment, which I do. She has been my piano teacher for my entire time playing piano (Almost 5 years), and there is no-one I trust more when it comes to music. It's probably just me being impatient ;P but I wanted to know how far I was from being able to play some of the more advanced pieces.

[kc_gracie]

I think learning a nocturne or two would be a great idea. So many good choices.

I also think waiting, if that is what you are most comfortable with, is not a bad idea. I will say though, sometimes learning other pieces that your teacher hasn't approved (while you work on everything else, of course), without their knowledge, can also be good. For example, I learned a couple of pieces that my teacher thought were too hard for me in my early days of learning the piano (can't remember exactly how long I had played, but both close to the same time), one being the Op.post Nocturne in C-sharp minor by Chopin and the other being the C-sharp minor prelude by Rachmaninoff. I was so eager to learn these that I did. I later played them for my teacher and she was very happy and impressed. Of course, they needed some extra work, but she saw how excited I was about these pieces and let me continue.

However, I also learned a couple of pieces (tried) that were actually too hard, and I just had to drop them for later.

Point is, I think working on other pieces that would be more manageable is a great idea. However, if you still are super excited about the Liebestraume, maybe work on it in bits and pieces as the weeks go by. Like a goal that motivates you. You could even ignore the hard bits and just work on the more manageable parts until you are ready.

Either way, just have fun. You will learn it one day. I also strongly encourage the posthumous nocturne by Chopin in C-sharp minor. I just adore that piece.

-KC

[2hottohandel]

Thank you very much for this advice! I will start on the Nocturne right now!

One completely unrelated question:
Why are there so many romantic pieces in C# Minor? Probably just a coincidence, but it is quite intriguing.

[j_tour]

Why are there so many romantic pieces in C# Minor? Probably just a coincidence, but it is quite intriguing.

That's a great question, and one I've also sometimes wondered about.  Maybe some combination of E major having been a popular key from .... maybe mid-baroque onwards, to accomodate various string instruments ... but also it seems to me to fit nicely under the hands.

I wasn't initially going to reply to your OP, because it seems you want to go in a different direction, but I still would suggest at least reading through the other two waltzes from the same opus.  The third one (not the "Minute" Waltz) is relatively new to me, just from reading through it, but it's kind of charming in its own way.

But, it might be satisfying to you to do all three from the "set."  That might be a pretty solid little block of music if you're entertaining (for pay!  never play for free!) or a recital or something.

[2hottohandel]

Ha! I'm much too young to play for money! Only 13 right now, but I will take your advice and look at the rest of Op. 64. Would the Rach prelude in C# minor be within my reach? (btw I can reach a 9th pretty comfortably, but I would probably have to roll any 10ths)

[brogers70]

One completely unrelated question:
Why are there so many romantic pieces in C# Minor? Probably just a coincidence, but it is quite intriguing.

Maybe all those Romantic composers loved playing the Moonlight sonata and just naturally got used to thinking about C# minor.

[2hottohandel]

Maybe?

[ranjit]

I tend to use C# minor a lot as well. I think it fits quite naturally under the hand. Basically, both C# Aeolian (the plain minor scale), as well as the harmonic minor scale, are very ergonomic. Contrast this with E harmonic minor, or B harmonic minor, or D harmonic minor, where reaching the leading tone with the ring finger isn't so intuitive. However, for C# harmonic minor, you just have to move from the thumb to the index finger. So, you can easily flit between natural minor, harmonic minor, and even (I think) melodic minor, and all of them fall under the hands quite nicely. In general, key signatures with more black keys are more ergonomic. At least in my experience, C# minor is a pleasure to work with.

There are a few other key signatures which are pretty ergonomic, Ab minor comes to mind, both the harmonic and melodic variants have a very similar pattern to C# minor. Maybe C# is used more because it sits right near the center? -- This one might just be convention.

Edit: F# minor is also quite good.

ETA. It could also be because of the modulation possibilities. From C# minor, you can modulate to C#/Db major, or E major, both of which are pretty good. You could also have sections in F# or G#. Also, F# and G# are the 4 and 5 respectively, and it is very comfortable to play those chord configurations, and you can also play them really fast, quite easily, due to the way you have one white key and two black keys, which allow for stuff like really quick arpeggiation. So that is an added convenience. Just a thought.

[lelle]

Yes I do! I haven't discussed this with her because I don't want her to think that I don't completely trust her judgment, which I do. She has been my piano teacher for my entire time playing piano (Almost 5 years), and there is no-one I trust more when it comes to music. It's probably just me being impatient ;P but I wanted to know how far I was from being able to play some of the more advanced pieces.

Don't be afraid to communicate with your teacher She is an adult, she can handle you asking about the direction she is taking you in. And if she can't, well...  So I'd say do ask, I would love to have a student who was enthusiastic about learning pieces in the future and wanted to put in the work to get there!

[pontiman]

Hey I love the Chopin Waltz in C# minor and might suggest your try the Listz Consolation #3 before the Lib #3. The Consolation has a lovely melody and more going on with the left hand than the Chopin Waltz.  The Lib #3's left hand is borderline Chopin Etude (but doable with enough practice), so the Consolation is a nice in between. 

[ranjit]

Is it that difficult? It looks quite manageable to me, in most places you have a bass octave and a few arpeggios. Certainly not even close to being as hard as the Revolutionary etude, for example.

[2hottohandel]

@ranjit The cadenzas at the end do look quite difficult, so 

Thank you all for the advice! I think I am going to start the Chopin Nocturne in C# Minor, but before I do so, does anyone have any advice on how to handle the fast-paced polyrhythms that occur throughout the piece. Also, are there any must-listen recordings I should listen to other than Mikhail Pletnev and Claudio Arrau?

If it would be better to post this in a separate thread, just let me know 

[kc_gracie]

For the polyrhythms, I think you will find that counting them out as you practice them won't be that difficult once you get the feel for it. Just make it so that you can count out the pattern. You can even tap you hands on your legs to get the beats down exactly where they should be. Then, just start working on applying that to the notes as you play. Once you get the pattern down, you will get a feel for it and it won't seem like a challenge.

For recordings, I'm not sure. I know Barenboim recorded it and I actually really like Janusz Olejniczak from the 'The Pianist' album that was released for that movie. He played the piano for that movie and I like his interpretation. The movie was the first time I heard the piece when I was young and is what motivated me to learn it. Perhaps that is also why I like that particular recording (nostalgia).

For the Rachmaninoff C-sharp minor prelude, I would say it is more difficult than this nocturne and the waltz that you learned. However, I personally think it is easier than the Liebestraume No.3. There aren't any major stretches (if I recall correctly) in that piece. The notes, throughout the entire piece, fit well under the fingers. I would vote for the Nocturne first. Jumping around in the last third of the piece can be somewhat challenging and just getting speed in the middle section. Overall, though, it does feel comfortable.

Good luck.

-KC

[anacrusis]

The Rachmaninoff C# prelude is rather comfortable. And it sounds more difficult than it is, which can be fun if you like to show off