Lack of practice doesn't mean failure

[lostinidlewonder]

All teachers would have experienced this at some point, your student isn't practicing enough, the parents/guardians have had enough telling them to practice or the student themselves feel defeated because they don't think they can practice enough, lessons are thus ended. I feel that bringing up the amount of practice done each week should be erased from all topic of discussion in the lesson and let me try to explain why.

We need to encourage students to practice of their own volition and we should merely walk along side them as they go on this journey. This process should not be strangled by our expectations, approvals and rewards for jumping through someone elses targets. The results may not come to what you expect or in a timeframe you expect but that doesn't matter. You create a more lasting and larger change in someones life when they learn how to want to do something rather than be trained to listen to what others enforce them to do. This process is dead easy when working with things you totally enjoy and can do effortlesly, but we need to learn how to do this with things we might like but don't always enjoy and piano fits that bill very well, no one really likes the grueling grind and pressure to progress that practicing can feel like sometimes.

Making the decision to work your own rather than being told to do so really is a huge difference. Over the decades of teaching students I have notice those who achieve the highest are those who are not pressured to achieve but do so because they like it. Don't get me wrong they are all very hard workers but they are doing it voluntarily rather than something that has been imposed. There is just a different feeling when you work with people like this compared to those who have been brought up to do what they are told. The thing is however, this can be taught, to want to do work on your own and lack of practice is not an indicator of failure but rather a part of the early process of learning to take responsibility.

We as teachers need to be wary of students who are using us to make them do the work. Some students simply need teachers so they have someone to answer to and they feel pressured to do work so they have to show something to someone and get approval from them. I mean this is a natural process that should occur but we should be wary that the student also wants to work hard because of their own responsibility they want to take for the work. This is a subtle difference I feel that many teachers don't consider as they impose targets and then get dissapointed when students return without hitting those even expressing that to their students themselves, demoralizing and destructive feedback imho. 

We certianly DO NOT let students totally go off the rails and do totally what they want, but we don't impose dissapointment if they have not done any work, we merely take them by the hand and go through it with them and show them how well they can do it. Even mentioning the lack of practice should not come up. Often I don't have to say anything at all and the student says they didn't practice, to which I will always respond in a positive manner and simply help them get through the work they could have done themselves. I work hard trying to get students to no longer tell me how much or how little they practiced because they should not yearn for my approval but much more their own.

So this situation of the lazy students coming to the next lesson without practicing at all during the week can last for extended periods but as a teacher you simply don't bring it up and go through the work with them happily without negativity. This process might take many months but you will often notice a change in their habits, they will make their own choices to practice more. Never be dissapointed that they didn't practice merely show them how much work they can get through and how clever they really are. If you cannot excite them in a lesson then there is a problem but almost all the time you can.

Be wary that often you will have students who are exhausted from the days work and then they have to start focusing on piano. So you are not always dealing with a student who has high energy levels, it is important to help those students realize how to do work when they feel low, bringing up lack of practice is not going to inspire them one bit.

The parents need to be told that this process of wanting to take responsbility for something takes time and what looks like failure because of lack of practice is not failure at all. I have noticed many students go from avoiding to practice to actually enjoying it (and enjoying it at all different levels which might seem quite little by comparisons to others). Some parents only want their kids to do things that they enjoy and they feel that lack of practice means they are not enjoying it or if they are not achieving high and producing great results it is not worth it. They even instill in their children that if they are not practicing that means they don't like something. Some students might simply need weekly lessons and practice piano only then. Eventually they will start practicing more on their own, it is only inevitable. We just have to give them that space and freedom and not pressure them that if they are not practicing at a rate we expect that means they are not enjoying what they are doing.

[anacrusis]

What's this, a lostinidlewonder post I fully agree with? Sometimes the things you say come across as kind of unreasonably hostile, but I think this is sensible. As a kid, I was definitely one of those students who almost compulsively did not practise if I was pressured to do so. I almost never worked on the assignments given by the teacher at home, but played other things I rather preferred to play. So often we worked on the homework during the lesson and that's how I progressed. The little work I did put in on the assignments at home was mostly to avoid having a negative reaction from the teacher, because as long as I played through the piece slowly once before the lesson, I could play it well enough for my teacher to be happy  When I got older and could select pieces I was self-motivated to practise, I worked on them diligently without ever being urged.

[lostinidlewonder]

Sometimes the things you say come across as kind of unreasonably hostile, but I think this is sensible.

Well I don't make any aim to be hostile, sometimes people feel that if there is a disagreement there is a battle. I haven't posted that much since Jan this year when you joined pianostreet.

As a kid, I was definitely one of those students who almost compulsively did not practise if I was pressured to do so. I almost never worked on the assignments given by the teacher at home, but played other things I rather preferred to play. So often we worked on the homework during the lesson and that's how I progressed. The little work I did put in on the assignments at home was mostly to avoid having a negative reaction from the teacher, because as long as I played through the piece slowly once before the lesson, I could play it well enough for my teacher to be happy  When I got older and could select pieces I was self-motivated to practise, I worked on them diligently without ever being urged.

I think the correct repertoire choice is important to keep students motivated. The correct piece can increase the amount of time it gets worked on a huge amount. Not only the correct piece but the correct amount of work suggested to get through too is important. If I set something for a student who struggles to practice I make sure the suggestion is not too large, something that they could easily manage. It doesn't matter if they complete it or not but if it is easy enough they should feel encouraged to complete it and then choose to do more on their own. That act of "choosing" to do more on their own is where you want to try and position the student.

[perfect_pitch]

We need to encourage students to practice with their own volition and we should merely walk along side them as they go on this journey. This process should not be strangled by our expectations, approvals and rewards for jumping through someone elses targets. The results may not come to what you expect or in a timeframe you expect but that doesn't matter. You create a more lasting and larger change in someones life when they learn how to want to do something rather than be trained to listen to what others enforce them to do. This process is dead easy when working with things you totally enjoy and can do effortlesly, but we need to learn how to do this with things we might like but don't always enjoy and piano fits that bill very well, no one really likes the grueling grind and pressure to progress that practicing can feel like sometimes.

I would whole-heartedly agree with this, if an adult was paying for their lessons. As someone who teaches mostly children though - I am absolutely in agreement that students learn at their own pace; however they need to see that the more practice (structured practice, not just repeated playing through of their pieces) they put in, the better they will get. I constantly remind them that their progress and their enjoyment comes from putting in the effort... because when you have some students who don't practice - they get down on themselves because they don't see progress.

Over the decades of teaching students I have notice those who achieve the highest are those who are not pressured to achieve but do so because they like it. Don't get me wrong they are all very hard workers but they are doing it voluntarily rather than something that has been imposed. There is just a different feeling when you work with people like this compared to those who have been brought up to do what they are told. The thing is however, this can be taught, to want to do work on your own and lack of practice is not an indicator of failure but rather a part of the early process of learning to take responsibility.

Funnily enough, I was made to learn the piano and for the first few months - I hated it. I was made to practice, and it was only at our Christmas concert when I managed to play Jingle Bells (very easy version), that I realised that practice resulted in me playing confidently and proudly.

I don't put demands on my students though - all I ask is that they try and do regular practice during the week as much as they can (whether that's 30 mins x 6 days, or 10 mins x 3), my only expectation really is that they don't come the next week with their pieces in a worse state than they left me with.

We certianly DO NOT let students totally go off the rails and do totally what they want, but we don't impose dissapointment if they have not done any work, we merely take them by the hand and go through it with them and show them how well they can do it. Even mentioning the lack of practice should not come up. Often I don't have to say anything at all and the student says they didn't practice, to which I will always respond in a positive manner and simply help them get through the work they could have done themselves. I work hard trying to get students to no longer tell me how much or how little they practiced because they should not yearn for my approval but much more their own.

So this situation of the lazy students coming to the next lesson without practicing at all during the week can last for extended periods but as a teacher you simply don't bring it up and go through the work with them happily without negativity. This process might take many months but you will often notice a change in their habits, they will make their own choices to practice more. Never be dissapointed that they didn't practice merely show them how much work they can get through and how clever they really are. If you cannot excite them in a lesson then there is a problem but almost all the time you can.

I used to have a student who only did 18 lessons with me (a semester at school), who used to do piano as a youngster and wanted to take it up again. For the first lesson, I showed them how to do a couple of simple songs with a RH melody and I, IV & V chords in G Major 5-finger position. By the end of each lesson, they would be able to play it approximately (with a couple small pauses & mistakes) but could play it acceptably well knowing they only had a 30 min lesson with me.

EVERY SINGLE WEEK for the next 17 weeks, they would come back without doing a single MINUTE of practice and had completely forgotten every shred from what we did the week before, and every week I would try and be supportive and gently remind her that progress takes effort and teach her the pieces again and again... and EVERY week she would walk in - all blasé, no remorse, no care that I spent almost 9 hours total trying to re-kindle her interest in piano or that her mother spent over $600 on lessons to not give a crap.

I'm not after approval, but a mutual understanding that they have asked to do piano and I am trying to help them... and that my help seems to be wasted when I could be teaching who truly does have a love for the instrument. I simply want to teach students, who want to be taught.

Be wary that often you will have students who are exhausted from the days work and then they have to start focusing on piano. So you are not always dealing with a student who has high energy levels, it is important to help those students realize how to do work when they feel low, bringing up lack of practice is not going to inspire them one bit.

Yes, but any good teacher knows the difference between lack of practice, and lack of energy. 

Some students might simply need weekly lessons and practice piano only then. Eventually they will start practicing more on their own, it is only inevitable. We just have to give them that space and freedom and not pressure them that if they are not practicing at a rate we expect that means they are not enjoying what they are doing.

I don't expect a particular rate of progression... I just expect progression... and yes, some weeks - they may have been busy and might have not found the time to practice... but when parents are paying AUD$70/hr for lessons, it's only fair that a student shows their appreciation for their parents, by trying to put in a little effort into it.

I don't ever expect all my students to go onto University institutions, but I simply expect them to show they appreciate my help and tutelage, by giving a damn about what I tell them in the lessons and 'trying' to apply it.

[lostinidlewonder]

....they need to see that the more practice (structured practice, not just repeated playing through of their pieces) they put in, the better they will get. I constantly remind them that their progress and their enjoyment comes from putting in the effort... because when you have some students who don't practice - they get down on themselves because they don't see progress.

We have to teach them efficient practice method and good study habits etc and then we should avoid hounding them over it and make them feel pressured if they don't do it enough. Bringing up the amount of practice done for the week is a conversation we should delete so that we merely work with what we have and there is no need to get approval from the teacher that you did do a lot of study or dissaproval that you didn't. I find it much more effective if it is all left in the students head that they didn't do enough work, lets not bring it out, let them mull over that themselves and not allow them to give excuses to the teacher or feel defeated through admitting they did no practice.

I also notice students getting down on themselves because they haven't practice enough, but I wonder if it is a guilt feeling they have associated with what they think the teacher is thinking of them or if they really feel down on a personal level because they are dissapointed with their own efforts. Many kids don't think like that so much, those that don't practice find piano more of an interruption, something that takes away their play time, an annoying task they just can't do well, and of course no one finds doing things like that enjoyable. We can however show them effective learning during lessons and hopefully that inspires them to do it on their own too.

Funnily enough, I was made to learn the piano and for the first few months - I hated it.

I can also remember dreading lessons with some teachers and now I am a piano teacher myself, go figure lol. I think its important to realize that lack of practice is not something that is permanent, however we can solidify its permanence by constantly bringing it up and noticing the students failure to practice. Instead we should just go ahead and help them during lessons, if they don't do it on their own then thats fine they just need more time.

I don't put demands on my students though - all I ask is that they try and do regular practice during the week as much as they can (whether that's 30 mins x 6 days, or 10 mins x 3), my only expectation really is that they don't come the next week with their pieces in a worse state than they left me with.

With some of my lazy students I often suggest a certain amount of work to be done and it is usually very small so they can easily do it and then more. I've literally gone to asking them to get 1 bar of music done, sometimes they still cant even do that! One wonders what is the point in teaching someone who is so hopeless at doing any work on their own, but we do need to give people that space to be able to establish a responsible attitude towards work. If we merely beat it into them they become good servants and good listeneres to instruction, but they never have this inspiration to work coming from their own steam, from within them, a source which is far greater and which we as teachers need to try to awaken in our students.

I used to have a student who only did 18 lessons with me (a semester at school), who used to do piano as a youngster and wanted to take it up again. For the first lesson, I showed them how to do a couple of simple songs with a RH melody and I, IV & V chords in G Major 5-finger position. By the end of each lesson, they would be able to play it approximately (with a couple small pauses & mistakes) but could play it acceptably well knowing they only had a 30 min lesson with me.

EVERY SINGLE WEEK for the next 17 weeks, they would come back without doing a single MINUTE of practice and had completely forgotten every shred from what we did the week before, and every week I would try and be supportive and gently remind her that progress takes effort and teach her the pieces again and again... and EVERY week she would walk in - all blasé, no remorse, no care that I spent almost 9 hours total trying to re-kindle her interest in piano or that her mother spent over $600 on lessons to not give a crap.

I'm not after approval, but a mutual understanding that they have asked to do piano and I am trying to help them... and that my help seems to be wasted when I could be teaching who truly does have a love for the instrument. I simply want to teach students, who want to be taught.

Yep I have had similar situations to this. Usually it is children who have been forced into lessons. They just never practice, always ask how much time is left in the lessons, always look at their watch, seem vacant and disintereted in lessons etc. I often just end up chatting with these students and try to get them on my side and relaxed during the lesson at least before we do work. If we can have a good lessons then I am satisfied and I try not to care what they do on their own.

It is not the teachers responsbility to force a student to work hard during the week. We of course would love that they do daily practice and work with our lessons notes closely and practice just as we did in lessons. Often students of mine just "muck around" on the piano when practicing themselves and only in lessons do they do proper structured study, I guess it is ok its better than nothing at all. Oh the variation of people you come across, its never ending, in the end we should not be too worried about how much people practice and just deal with the lessons. We of course can plant seeds in our students, giving them confidence to work effectively on their own with a subject they might not be totally infatuated with. Afterall this is a good life skill to practice and it can be learned with many other disciplines not only piano.

Yes, but any good teacher knows the difference between lack of practice, and lack of energy. 

The thing is it can be like a vicious circle. Lack of energy causes lack of practice then if the teacher calls up the student on the lack of practice they get feel more down and unmotivated. So the idea of even bringing up how much you practiced I feel should be removed because even if it has a positive or negative result it is somewhat meaningless. I get it that some students thrive off approval from their teachers and thus will work harder, but what I would like to see is that they thrive from their own inspiration to work and their own sense of duty. This is something we can teach very early on and I find many kids just have never experienced it, they are always told what to do.

I don't expect a particular rate of progression... I just expect progression... and yes, some weeks - they may have been busy and might have not found the time to practice... but when parents are paying AUD$70/hr for lessons, it's only fair that a student shows their appreciation for their parents, by trying to put in a little effort into it.

I don't ever expect all my students to go onto University institutions, but I simply expect them to show they appreciate my help and tutelage, by giving a damn about what I tell them in the lessons and 'trying' to apply it.

I notice these lazy students not caring that it costs $$$ for their lessons and many other people would love to have the opportunity they have. I even told some of my lazy students about other students I've taught who couldn't have piano lessons for decades and only now could once they have some money and time to do so. It is like waters on a ducks back though such words.

So I wondered how can these students actually get something out of the lessons if they are not practice enough. The fact they are not practicing should not be a ticket for them to give up lessons, in fact it is a challenge posed to the teacher to try and help this student with their own life skills. Sure some teachers just want to teach piano and that is totally fine, get rid of those lazy students, I am sure though many of us wonder what do you actually do with students that don't practice at all because having them quit lessons never solves the problem and we very often feel like something isn't right when it happens.

[perfect_pitch]

We have to teach them efficient practice method and good study habits etc and then we should avoid hounding them over it and make them feel pressured if they don't do it enough. Bringing up the amount of practice done for the week is a conversation we should delete so that we merely work with what we have and there is no need to get approval from the teacher that you did do a lot of study or dissaproval that you didn't. I find it much more effective if it is all left in the students head that they didn't do enough work, lets not bring it out, let them mull over that themselves and not allow them to give excuses to the teacher or feel defeated through admitting they did no practice.

I do teach students efficient practice methods. I even give them ways to practice in their journal on a week to week basis - even from beginning students doing 3 note songs on the treble clef. It's a tie between doing a moderate amount of practice... and using their practice time efficiently by practicing in the right way. I do ask students how much they've practiced and I feel that while I am a piano teacher - I understand that other things can get in the way at random times preventing them from practicing - and by that I use it as a way to judge their commitment to piano. If a kid tells me that they were playing games on their iPad 6 nights a week and couldn't practice, then I know they're not committed. If a student tells me they couldn't practice during the week because they had a Major assignment that was due and a couple of tests - I can give them the benefit of the doubt that while they intended to practice, they couldn't because they probably had genuine tasks that had a higher priority.

I also notice students getting down on themselves because they haven't practice enough, but I wonder if it is a guilt feeling they have associated with what they think the teacher is thinking of them or if they really feel down on a personal level because they are dissapointed with their own efforts. Many kids don't think like that so much, those that don't practice find piano more of an interruption, something that takes away their play time, an annoying task they just can't do well, and of course no one finds doing things like that enjoyable. We can however show them effective learning during lessons and hopefully that inspires them to do it on their own too.

Then you've just brought up an important point. The problem is that life isn't all about play - yes, sometimes they need to do homework, sometimes they need to clean their room when they are told, and if they are doing piano lessons - they need to put in some effort... but a good teacher doesn't usually expect that a student from week to week will achieve exactly 'this pre-determined task being completed'.

Some of them might be feeling down on themselves because they know they could have squeezed an extra 20-30 mins during the week doing practice instead of watching Netflix, or playing bloody Minecraft; students need to see that if they put in the effort, then they gain an appreciation for their instrument and this in turn nurtures their love for the instrument - that there is a sense of satisfaction gained from putting in the time and effort into piano practice

. A good teacher also congratulates a student on their progress based upon what they have achieved in a week. If they can play a piece moderately well in the lesson, but come back and play it proficiently and confidently (but didn't finish learning a 2nd piece), we still congratulate them for progressing. Any teaching expecting a student to do a pre-defined set of work from week to week is kidding themselves.

I can also remember dreading lessons with some teachers and now I am a piano teacher myself, go figure lol. I think its important to realize that lack of practice is not something that is permanent, however we can solidify its permanence by constantly bringing it up and noticing the students failure to practice. Instead we should just go ahead and help them during lessons, if they don't do it on their own then thats fine they just need more time.
With some of my lazy students I often suggest a certain amount of work to be done and it is usually very small so they can easily do it and then more. I've literally gone to asking them to get 1 bar of music done, sometimes they still cant even do that! One wonders what is the point in teaching someone who is so hopeless at doing any work on their own, but we do need to give people that space to be able to establish a responsible attitude towards work. If we merely beat it into them they become good servants and good listeneres to instruction, but they never have this inspiration to work coming from their own steam, from within them, a source which is far greater and which we as teachers need to try to awaken in our students.

I do however think there is a change in the demographic of students and generation. When I was a kid, my dad made me choose one thing and he was happy to pay for it. For me, it was piano since I was 9... for my sisters - it was Dance... before they got sick of it and wanted to do Drama, and they had to give up the Dance to do Drama.

Nowadays, in wealthier groups of students - you find they do Yoga on Monday, Horse riding on Tuesdays, Basketball on Wednesdays, Swimming on Thursdays, extra Math Tuition on Fridays... no bloody wonder they don't have time to practice regularly. I personally think with some students, it's showing them how awesome piano can be, and if they see that - they will BEGIN to put in the time to make it a priority. I will admit, since I teach students who do 2 instruments (usually piano to begin with, then a string instrument in Year 3), I find they usually drop one for the other. Luckily for me, it is usually that they drop their string instrument for piano... but in the rare case, they go for the string instrument over the piano. I guess for them, they seem to have found a love for their other instrument that piano couldn't satisfy, and they sadly enough just don't usually have time to properly practice both.

Yep I have had similar situations to this. Usually it is children who have been forced into lessons. They just never practice, always ask how much time is left in the lessons, always look at their watch, seem vacant and disintereted in lessons etc. I often just end up chatting with these students and try to get them on my side and relaxed during the lesson at least before we do work. If we can have a good lessons then I am satisfied and I try not to care what they do on their own.

Mmmm... no, I find some students like the 'concept' of learning the piano, but usually don't like it after a year because they can't play Fur Elise by then, and realise that piano isn't something you just instantly pick up. You see, because of YouTube - there are videos of 5 year olds playing Bach & Mozart. We've saturated them with videos of what can be done, but they can't understand that these are rare cases that almost no normal student can really achieve.

The thing is it can be like a vicious circle. Lack of energy causes lack of practice then if the teacher calls up the student on the lack of practice they get feel more down and unmotivated. So the idea of even bringing up how much you practiced I feel should be removed because even if it has a positive or negative result it is somewhat meaningless. I get it that some students thrive off approval from their teachers and thus will work harder, but what I would like to see is that they thrive from their own inspiration to work and their own sense of duty. This is something we can teach very early on and I find many kids just have never experienced it, they are always told what to do.

I don't think it is really a vicious cycle. Lack of energy causes lack of practice - fine; that's a given... but as I said - a good teacher knows the difference between the inability to find time to practice, and the inability to want to find time to practice.

So I wondered how can these students actually get something out of the lessons if they are not practice enough. The fact they are not practicing should not be a ticket for them to give up lessons, in fact it is a challenge posed to the teacher to try and help this student with their own life skills. Sure some teachers just want to teach piano and that is totally fine, get rid of those lazy students, I am sure though many of us wonder what do you actually do with students that don't practice at all because having them quit lessons never solves the problem and we very often feel like something isn't right when it happens.

I teach in Perth, and I swear - the people here are Sports crazy. It's sad that because of a 3-day lockdown we had to cancel the ANZAC ceremonies; but despite that - all the sports games are still going on this weekend (albeit without crowds).

I genuinely think it's a matter of priorities. We try to pitch why Piano is awesome compared to every other instrument they could learn, every sport they could invest time in... and against every single school teacher lobbing homework at them every day of the week.

A good teacher will tell students why they should practice and nurture as early on their need to practice to show them that they can progress and achieve higher and higher goals if that is the path they want to achieve. A good teacher doesn't dictate what a student should do from week to week and demand that their goals should be met... but a good teacher can see when a student is applying themselves in a single half hour lesson... but refuses to put in any effort in the other 167.5 hours we don't see them.

[lostinidlewonder]

I do teach students efficient practice methods. I even give them ways to practice in their journal on a week to week basis - even from beginning students doing 3 note songs on the treble clef. It's a tie between doing a moderate amount of practice... and using their practice time efficiently by practicing in the right way.

Of course I don't mean that you don't do such things, I was repeating what you said. Practice method is such an important issue to discuss which I feel not enough teacher do, HOW to practice rather than constantly WHAT to practice.

I do ask students how much they've practiced and I feel that while I am a piano teacher - I understand that other things can get in the way at random times preventing them from practicing - and by that I use it as a way to judge their commitment to piano.

This is a natural process we as teachers go through but I feel that we want to stop doing it. There is no need to ask how much they have practiced if you merely go through the work during the lesson, how much they have practice will reveal itself unavoidably. So instead of asking about the amount of practice I tend to ask things like what they have got up to, or what parts were challenging etc. Rather than use the word "practice", how much did you practice, what did you practice, did you practice enough etc. This seems a subtle difference but it makes a large difference vs students who struggle to practice on their own. Those who don't practice don't get a chance to say they didn't practice and give excuses as to why, we merely do work in lessons.

If a kid tells me that they were playing games on their iPad 6 nights a week and couldn't practice, then I know they're not committed. If a student tells me they couldn't practice during the week because they had a Major assignment that was due and a couple of tests - I can give them the benefit of the doubt that while they intended to practice, they couldn't because they probably had genuine tasks that had a higher priority.

This idea of commitment I think needs not our input as a teacher unless of course the student is fooling themselves (eg: They do no practice but think that they do as much as they can). We need  a lot of patience with these students because if we call them up on their commitment due to lack of practice we are simply not going to help them at all become more committed, we want them to be relaxed in lessons not feel tense if they didn't practice, to feel safe if they are a failure because we are working together at this at the same level, not the teacher dragging you up.

..a good teacher doesn't usually expect that a student from week to week will achieve exactly 'this pre-determined task being completed'.

We of course would love that they complete tasks that we set for them and then more. I would say a large majority of my students complete everything I set for them and always come to the next lessons with more questions and enjoy reporting what they experienced during the week practicing alone. This is a great situation to be in. What I am more concerned about in this thread are the students who really struggle to practice, those who would give up because we keep telling them they are not practicing enough, those whos parents think they are not enjoying the piano because they are not practicing enough. It is these troubled students this thread is really honing in on. The vast majority of students really work hard and enjoy working with a teacher, but even then those students too need to learn to be inspired to do work not because they have to answer to someone but because they take pride in their work and enjoy that responsibility.

Some of them might be feeling down on themselves because they know they could have squeezed an extra 20-30 mins during the week doing practice instead of watching Netflix, or playing bloody Minecraft; students need to see that if they put in the effort, then they gain an appreciation for their instrument and this in turn nurtures their love for the instrument - that there is a sense of satisfaction gained from putting in the time and effort into piano practice

Exactly. It would be great if these younger students who could easily lose hours a day from computer games learn to take more responsbility with other activities which are not just about having fun. That is a tough ask though because as we know the mentality of kids is attuned to play. When I was a younger teacher I would explain all sorts of tools to struggling students who didn't practice much, tools they could use to become more disciplined, the analogy that "what gets written gets done" and going through all sorts of ways to do that (eg: timetabling, goal setting, musical journal keeping etc). I never converted one student to become more disciplined that way, certainly never for the long term.

So I found that just being patient with those students and not tearing them down for not practicing enough, not telling them off, not explaining they could do so much better if they did more at home. We just do the work in the lesson. Get through as much work as we can, then observe how much work we did get through together and then commend the student for getting through that work and maintaining focus in the lesson. High praise during lessons I think is important for these struggling students.

A good teacher also congratulates a student on their progress based upon what they have achieved in a week. If they can play a piece moderately well in the lesson, but come back and play it proficiently and confidently (but didn't finish learning a 2nd piece), we still congratulate them for progressing. Any teaching expecting a student to do a pre-defined set of work from week to week is kidding themselves.

Yes it is natural to commend your students on the work they achieved on their own. The thing I feel though is that if they are feeding off those comments it is not a good situation, they need to want to do it ultimately for themselves and not to please anyone else. This is the subtle difference I was trying to present and I feel that it makes a large difference. Yes we can have effective lessons with a student only working hard to satisfy others, but what about the other side, where there is no satisfying anyone else but yourself and your own sense of value.

Nowadays, in wealthier groups of students - you find they do Yoga on Monday, Horse riding on Tuesdays, Basketball on Wednesdays, Swimming on Thursdays, extra Math Tuition on Fridays... no bloody wonder they don't have time to practice regularly. I personally think with some students, it's showing them how awesome piano can be, and if they see that - they will BEGIN to put in the time to make it a priority. I will admit, since I teach students who do 2 instruments (usually piano to begin with, then a string instrument in Year 3), I find they usually drop one for the other. Luckily for me, it is usually that they drop their string instrument for piano... but in the rare case, they go for the string instrument over the piano. I guess for them, they seem to have found a love for their other instrument that piano couldn't satisfy, and they sadly enough just don't usually have time to properly practice both.

Yeah those poor overworked students I have come across it is really tragic. I can remember one girl I taught she did an activity every single day and did swimming at a state level. She would often just cry in our lessons because she was exhausted and expected so much of herself because of the constant pressure on her, it was quite confronting! What can you do with these poor overworked students? I usually spend a little time just chatting to them because I don't want to put a huge work load onto their shoulders, what is the point in that, I don't want to be a contributor to their mental breakdown. I make sure the weekly targets seem very easy for these students something you should do for all struggling students.

It might confuse people to think, why am I talking about targets and goals that the teachers set when I was talking about the student working of their own volition. In fact we can suggest how much to do that is fine so long we don't overstep the mark and constantly have the students realize they fall short from what we ask for. We should suggest what to do but it always should be manageable and not something they need to put a huge amount of work in to complete. We must be wary to give a small enough task during the week that they can easily complete, this then sets them up perhaps to do even more work than was asked, this is a situation you want to get these students into. To actively choose to do more than what was asked, but that can only really occur if you really give them less work, it is a handy tactic to use for struggling students to CHOOSE to do their own amount of work.

... I find some students like the 'concept' of learning the piano, but usually don't like it after a year because they can't play Fur Elise by then, and realise that piano isn't something you just instantly pick up. You see, because of YouTube - there are videos of 5 year olds playing Bach & Mozart. We've saturated them with videos of what can be done, but they can't understand that these are rare cases that almost no normal student can really achieve.

Taking inspiration from other people and working from other peoples achievements, something that I really try to avoid in lessons. I have had beginner students who bring to me such difficult music for themselves and insist they learn it. This is a different problem I feel than those who don't want to practice. I can see some sort of connection that they lack practice because they think the work they have been set is not at a high standard. They find that they struggle with this easier work and thus feel demoralized and don't want to practice because others do much better than themselves. That isn't something that takes much effort to break down, just needs a little bit of therapy in the piano lesson haha, in saying that though I have had one particular student who couldn't get over the fact that little children were playing many levels higher than they were and gave up eventualy because of that, what can you do?!

I don't think it is really a vicious cycle. Lack of energy causes lack of practice - fine; that's a given... but as I said - a good teacher knows the difference between the inability to find time to practice, and the inability to want to find time to practice.

I mean if you are exhausted you will not practice much and then if the teacher complains you are not practicing enough then it makes you more tired each time you think about practicing because there is so much mental pressure surrounding the whole situation. If parents are on the students back to practice more, if the parents start feeling annoyed that they constantly have to tell the student to practice, this all creates a bad learning environment which really will absorb energy from the student and lowers the propensity to do work. That is the vicious cycle I observe.

I teach in Perth, and I swear - the people here are Sports crazy. It's sad that because of a 3-day lockdown we had to cancel the ANZAC ceremonies; but despite that - all the sports games are still going on this weekend (albeit without crowds).

We teach in the same area, I'm sure you have also had many sport students miss classes because they have some sporting event, or need to change times because sports is more important. lol.

I genuinely think it's a matter of priorities. We try to pitch why Piano is awesome compared to every other instrument they could learn, every sport they could invest time in... and against every single school teacher lobbing homework at them every day of the week.

I take a lot of interest in their other activities and enjoy chatting to them about it and seeing what they do in that. Two brothers I taught last week won awards at the state swimming competitions and were showing me all their awards. I don't ever find myself talking about how good piano is, never once. Personally I find no need to tell my students that they need to find that themselves. I guess I am a little different to most teachers because I also hate reading the scientific reports of how good piano is for the brain. I cant stand it when I have new students and their parents are like, we want our child to learn the piano because we have heard how good it is for their brain development etc etc. For me I think that is NOT a good reason to study the piano.

A good teacher will tell students why they should practice and nurture as early on their need to practice to show them that they can progress and achieve higher and higher goals if that is the path they want to achieve. A good teacher doesn't dictate what a student should do from week to week and demand that their goals should be met... but a good teacher can see when a student is applying themselves in a single half hour lesson... but refuses to put in any effort in the other 167.5 hours we don't see them.

Yes there is nothing wrong with explaining the benefits of practice, how to practice, how to become more effective at practice etc, these all can be demonstrated in lessons we have through action and result. I feel we do need to talk about the benefits of practice so that the students are aware of such things. We do need to be wary with those students who struggle to practice on their own since we can talk about all these benefits and advantages but they might never do it and thus feel a failure they can't observe it or it gives them reason just to not care since it is some ideas that is not a part of them and out of reach, just an imagination. I have had this sort of stalemate with students so I wonder how is it we make the benefits of practice become apparent to them intrinsically, and I try to demonstrate that through action more so than verbalise it.

Some students are not honest with me about their practice so I constantly tell them that they need to be honest with themselves, they don't need to trick me or their parents or anyone else that they have done an amount of work, they need to be honest with themselves and be able to tell themselves truthfully what has been done. From my ~50 one on one students students I teach each week I would say I currently have around 10% who practice poorly and need a lot of help in that department. They are all at different levels of non practice and improvement. I encourage the parents not to pressure these students to practice (which might feel like the opposite thing to do) and give me time to work with them.

It really is a challenging situation which extends beyond the piano education. Lack of practice and motivation to do work has a macroscopic effect on the students life. I used to tutor maths and science to school students too and dealt with a lot of D grade students. It was not that these students were not smart but they fell behind and then couldn't catch up thus another vicious circle popped up, they fell behind, they tried to catch up but couldn't, it demoralized them so they fell behind even more. Piano can feel the same way as we constantly progress. Sometimes with these struggling students it can be an idea to go back to work they did in the past, it should feel easier for them the 2nd time you go through it and feel a lot less stressful. Making these students feel relaxed and notice they can get through work effectively during lessons really can change their perspective especially if they have a teacher who walks besides them rather than one which drags them up.

Cheers for your input PP.

[ranjit]

I have had some interesting experiences with teachers on this front. I have found that teachers I've had can often not tell how long I've practiced, and assume I've been practicing quite a bit. That is true on certain weeks when I actually manage to practice some 3 hours a day on average. However, on other weeks when I have assignments and exams, I often do not manage to practice much, if at all. However, somehow progress still seems to happen since I'm just thinking about the piano so much even if I'm not actually playing it.

So when a teacher asks me how much I've practiced a particular week, I'm lost. I never really count because that stresses me out. I often just go to the piano when I feel like I have a new idea which could improve things, or just to improvise and get my mind off things. There have been weeks where I have literally not practiced a piece the entire week. When a teacher asks me how much I've practiced, I would then feel guilty about not being able to practice. Sometimes, they have forgotten to ask how much I'd practiced, and they couldn't even tell that I hadn't practiced. Sometimes, I had even progressed quite a bit!

Progress is nonlinear anyway (or maybe that's just me?) I think that there is a certain kind of person who would benefit from being asked how much they practice -- and that is someone who naturally sets up deadlines and organizes their time. I am the very opposite of that kind of person, and time is a very fluid concept in my head -- I have to make a conscious effort even to remember the day of the week! Asking me how much I've practiced just stresses me out because I never have a good answer for that question, and I know that the time I spend thinking about music, listening to it, and maybe even dreaming about it, all effects learning in complicated ways which I have no clue how to boil down to a number.

Also, I know what truly effective practice actually means, and I try to be very effective with the time I spend consciously trying to get better. However, I know that it's not close to optimal efficiency. Lostinidlewonder made a post where he talked about how he learned how to play all the 24 Chopin etudes in 3 weeks, spending 9 hours a day practicing. I know that is possible, and in my mind that is close to optimal efficiency for learning. On the other hand, I am nowhere close to having the practice strategies to be able to do that, which makes me constantly think about how I'm spending my time.

Anyway, I know this discussion is largely about beginners and teachers finding it hard to motivate students, but I just wanted to pitch in with my experience.

[ranjit]

Some more thoughts:

Making the decision to work your own rather than being told to do so really is a huge difference. Over the decades of teaching students I have notice those who achieve the highest are those who are not pressured to achieve but do so because they like it.

I definitely agree with this. I often see students who do not explore obvious possible avenues of improvement because they have not been assigned, and I think they missing out on a lot. You will never achieve the confidence that you can attempt things, try and fail, and eventually succeed, unless you try it firsthand. Being internally motivated to do something is different from putting in the hours. I think it manifests as a difference in depth of understanding and a certain kind of confidence to venture into the unknown. In addition, the best methods which suit an individual need to be discovered on one's own imo, even though a teacher can help.

We certianly DO NOT let students totally go off the rails and do totally what they want, but we don't impose dissapointment if they have not done any work, we merely take them by the hand and go through it with them and show them how well they can do it.

I think there is one more thing at play here. Often you find people who are mentally "lazy" but will physically do an activity for long periods of time. Those people are very often harder to teach because they are convinced that their lack of ability is a function of them simply not having the 'talent'. A lazy student who does not put in the hours can often be taught how to learn efficiently, and one day when they get the motivation to improve, they may have the more effective practice methods ingrained, and truly realize that a difference in method does make a difference.

As an aside, people might wonder why I'm qualified to comment on these matters because I'm still learning the piano. I'm also drawing from my experiences at some really good universities in other fields, and I have interacted quite a bit with some exceptionally smart students and professors. And I've also often attempted to teach or explain many of these things to people. At a base level, there are more and less effective ways to learn to approach things, and you observe these across domains.

I think that, often, when students get to play "real" pieces, motivation shoots up. It's a mistake to make it all about "discipline" imo, and I've seen people who seem to play difficult pieces soullessly because they almost feel like it's "wrong" to like a piece and swayed away by the emotion, which is ridiculous.

EVERY SINGLE WEEK for the next 17 weeks, they would come back without doing a single MINUTE of practice and had completely forgotten every shred from what we did the week before, and every week I would try and be supportive and gently remind her that progress takes effort and teach her the pieces again and again... and EVERY week she would walk in - all blasé, no remorse, no care that I spent almost 9 hours total trying to re-kindle her interest in piano or that her mother spent over $600 on lessons to not give a crap.

I do feel jealous of such people. If only I had the funds, I would get myself a grand and two hours of lessons every week! I'd bet that I could do 6 straight hours of lessons and still enjoy it. But that would cost a fortune lol. But during a lesson, I never run out of ideas and it's always cut short, no matter how long it is. I just like to discuss things, I guess.

EVERY SINGLE WEEK for the next 17 weeks, they would come back without doing a single MINUTE of practice and had completely forgotten every shred from what we did the week before, and every week I would try and be supportive and gently remind her that progress takes effort and teach her the pieces again and again...

Wow, I do not think I would have the patience to be able to do that. I tend to be a very "strict" teacher when I teach lol, not in terms of time exactly, but I expect that students would attempt whatever I suggest and come back with feedback. And my natural style is to try to iterate quickly through that feedback and suggest a bunch of things. Of course, when I start teaching formally, I might change my ways. It's just that I think that there are certain ways of learning which result in quick improvement from my personal experience, and I try to convey those somehow. That said, I am not actually a teacher. I would probably try to throw that kind of a student into the deep end, by giving them work which builds upon the foundation previously assumed, to try to make them realize why it's important. I guess I'm pretty cruel that way!

So I wondered how can these students actually get something out of the lessons if they are not practice enough. The fact they are not practicing should not be a ticket for them to give up lessons, in fact it is a challenge posed to the teacher to try and help this student with their own life skills. Sure some teachers just want to teach piano and that is totally fine, get rid of those lazy students, I am sure though many of us wonder what do you actually do with students that don't practice at all because having them quit lessons never solves the problem and we very often feel like something isn't right when it happens.

I find this discussion quite revealing. I find that, while I don't think I have a good memory for things, I do not usually forget something once I understand it, certainly not in a week's time. For example, if I was taught the basics of staff notation one day, I do not think I would automatically forget it, so in the next lesson, even if I hadn't practiced one bit, the teacher could still build up on the previous lesson. I hear about how students forget where "middle C" is, and it boggles my mind. I couldn't even imagine that.

Mmmm... no, I find some students like the 'concept' of learning the piano, but usually don't like it after a year because they can't play Fur Elise by then, and realise that piano isn't something you just instantly pick up. You see, because of YouTube - there are videos of 5 year olds playing Bach & Mozart. We've saturated them with videos of what can be done, but they can't understand that these are rare cases that almost no normal student can really achieve.

Is it really true, though? I think that it is very possible, for someone practicing some 2 hours a day consistently, to be able to play grade 5 pieces in a year. That said, I may be way off the mark! Okay, maybe a bit of talent is required, but what "almost no normal student can really achieve" seems to me to be something like playing diploma pieces after a year (there are some examples of this, even on this forum), not a Bach Invention. The fact that normal students do not apply themselves for hours each day seems to me to be the real limiting factor.

[lostinidlewonder]

I have had some interesting experiences with teachers on this front. I have found that teachers I've had can often not tell how long I've practiced, and assume I've been practicing quite a bit....

I would say when I am teaching a new student it would take me a few lessons or a couple months to get to know their rate of learning. It is somewhat critical to understand how much work your student can manage otherwise you can set too much work or too littl and for the struggling student setting too much simply will make them eventually quit.

I think automatically in my head I calculate the amount of work the student did each week when I see the results of their playing. I do not bring it up if the quality is poor and focus on the improvement and work required during the lesson. A compliment that the work was done well can be done but then I am focusing more on what is to come next. In lessons it is always about work rather than laboring on the positive/negative feedback from the teachers as they consider the students practice efforts for the week.

So when a teacher asks me how much I've practiced a particular week, I'm lost. I never really count because that stresses me out. I often just go to the piano when I feel like I have a new idea which could improve things, or just to improvise and get my mind off things. There have been weeks where I have literally not practiced a piece the entire week. When a teacher asks me how much I've practiced, I would then feel guilty about not being able to practice. Sometimes, they have forgotten to ask how much I'd practiced, and they couldn't even tell that I hadn't practiced. Sometimes, I had even progressed quite a bit!

I've noticed with struggling students we set up a situation where we don't really talk about practice directly, it is implied by the work done in the lessons. If the student is behind we simply catch up, if they have problems that they didn't practice much we practice it in the lesson, if they have a problem they tried a during the week but gave up we puzzle how to do it differently if necessary etc etc. The lesson itself is work rather than any feedback about practice, through the work we deal with the rate of practice.

That guilt feeling you have when not practicing should not be fueled by the teacher and instead pushed solely onto the student themselves. When a student hasn't practiced and starts admitting to me that they didn't I immediately tell them it doesn't matter to me one bit, it doesn't make me sad or make my work with them any lesser, I just deal with the situation by carrying on with the work in the lesson. I find struggling students don't have enough practice working so if our lessons are examples of what it means to get through work efficiently then that is good training for them. I have tried every single trick under the sun to make the student practice more but if they ultimately don't choose to do it for themselves it is an uphill battle (one which I have fought for years with some students and still not won).

Progress is nonlinear anyway (or maybe that's just me?) I think that there is a certain kind of person who would benefit from being asked how much they practice -- and that is someone who naturally sets up deadlines and organizes their time. I am the very opposite of that kind of person, and time is a very fluid concept in my head -- I have to make a conscious effort even to remember the day of the week! Asking me how much I've practiced just stresses me out because I never have a good answer for that question, and I know that the time I spend thinking about music, listening to it, and maybe even dreaming about it, all effects learning in complicated ways which I have no clue how to boil down to a number.

You are right there are some people who really thrive off a structured regime they feel pressured to commit to. Personally I am one of those people lol but I have given up thinking everyone can work that way. To me what gets written gets done and I take great pride in my work and apply deep seriousness to my goal setting. I find that some of my students I need to bring back to earth so to say, their minds are in the clouds and their energy is too scattered. They have far too many interests in piano music and cannot focus, this in itself is something you need to avoid because you certainly can flounder about with piano music and waste a lot of time, this is different to the topic of the thread but an interesting discussion. 

I think that idea of "stress" when asked how much you practiced is something important to consider. If a teacher starts a lessons with "how much did you practice" you immediately put your student on a defensive, they are no longer relaxed and have to come up with an answer which will draw approval or minimize disapproval. So I skip that process and just do the work and if they struggle with the work due to lack of practice, we simply help and get on with the job along side them.

I go against every fibre of my being to tell them off if we have spent a few lessons on the same issue. Just positive reenforcement and get on with the job with them, this may take extra lessons to get through the work but you will keep the student relaxed and open for change. So many students who struggle to practice with piano also struggle to practice other subjects. It is no chance that failing piano students (due to lack of practice) also fail at other subjects. Most will assume this is because they do not allocate appropriate study time for these subjects and this is true but I feel the root cause of this lack of practice is the disconnection from the subject itself and a lack of responsbility.

They do not enjoy the subject enough to be curious to dabble with it on freely on their own accord. To play around with a subject you are studying is so important. I am glad when a students practice regieme consists of merely mucking around at the piano during the week. I have a number of students who practice in their own way during the week and don't really do it exactly as we do during lessons. They ignore the tools I give them and just focus on play and experimentation. This is totally fine and a good situation to be in, you should not suffocate this type of playful experimentation. This occurs at all ages too not only the young, I have a 70+ year old who does things in his own way in his own time, in our lessons I strive to get him to think how I would like him to do things but it is always a battle between what he wants to do and what I would like him to try. We have had some 3 years of lessons and he does now naturally do things many things I had asked for but it came about on his terms.

When you have students like this you need to plant seeds of information and see which ones start growing. How do you encourage small changes in the students in such a way that connects with what they are ready to manage. The student who doesn't practice enough needs to be made ready to manage more practice. I suggest one useful seed for that is to set minimal work for these struggling students so that they can only experience success in meeting targets set by the teacher, this will encourage them to then want to do more work than is set and the teacher can suggest they do such things during the lesson. Of course don't get me wrong this is not going to work with all, there are some crafty students who pretend they can only do so much work so they limit what is set. I have had students who purposefully make errors in lesson so we spend more time on the same section. Oh the joys of teaching lol.

How to suggest to do more work, well I love to use reward systems with younger students, toys, lollies, online game credit whatever! I remember when I was younger getting prizes from teachers was so exciting. I use it with youngers to give them some incentive for the work they put in. Some students just want to play piano for prizes, you do have to be wary and control that. Setting up prizes for younger students feeds on their sense of play and fun. Students will take more responsbility for their practice and increase their efforts. I have some young kids who have everything given to them so a prize from a teacher is meaningless, these children have mobile phones which cost over a thousand dollars. For the other less spoiled students however these prizes improves their sense of duty, it makes them want to do more work because they will be rewarded for it. It never seems that this prize system lasts for years on end usually they get used to just doing work and I will reward them now and then if they pass some milestones.

[lostinidlewonder]

Often you find people who are mentally "lazy" but will physically do an activity for long periods of time. Those people are very often harder to teach because they are convinced that their lack of ability is a function of them simply not having the 'talent'. A lazy student who does not put in the hours can often be taught how to learn efficiently, and one day when they get the motivation to improve, they may have the more effective practice methods ingrained, and truly realize that a difference in method does make a difference.

Someone who is mentally lazy but will do a physical activity for a long time is better than someone who doesn't practice at all. You can make small changes which match their mental laziness, they have the fuel to practice these small changes out and it will cause obvious benefit since they apply so much time to their mindless playing. Of course if the content of the music is too difficult and all they can do is mindless practice then there is no efficient solution. Someone who does no practice cannot compare if one way is really better than another, they just have to agree with it in their heads, there is no experience base to draw the conclusion from. This is a flimsy understanding which is meaningless until put to action.

I think that, often, when students get to play "real" pieces, motivation shoots up. It's a mistake to make it all about "discipline" imo, and I've seen people who seem to play difficult pieces soullessly because they almost feel like it's "wrong" to like a piece and swayed away by the emotion, which is ridiculous.

I think that it is fine to be motivated to play "real" pieces as you put it, say something that is a concert standard pieces or is really impressive? But this is not really a powerful source for motivation. Pieces themselves are merely targets on a wall, do we want to be merely motivated to practice hitting targets? Why not practice your aim so that any target can be hit with less attempts? Why not practice your aim to such an extent that you can blindly hit any target? When something becomes easy it becomes more attractive to do. How do you make ones piano playing experience easier and easier is a good question to meditate upon.

[lostinidlewonder]

I think that it is very possible, for someone practicing some 2 hours a day consistently, to be able to play grade 5 pieces in a year. That said, I may be way off the mark! Okay, maybe a bit of talent is required, but what "almost no normal student can really achieve" seems to me to be something like playing diploma pieces after a year (there are some examples of this, even on this forum), not a Bach Invention. The fact that normal students do not apply themselves for hours each day seems to me to be the real limiting factor.

On average I would say most students of piano don't get past around grade 3 AMEB. This is taking the average person not someone who is focused on music studies. Normal students don't hang around piano forums online either 😉

[lelle]

I think that it is fine to be motivated to play "real" pieces as you put it, say something that is a concert standard pieces or is really impressive? But this is not really a powerful source for motivation. Pieces themselves are merely targets on a wall, do we want to be merely motivated to practice hitting targets? Why not practice your aim so that any target can be hit with less attempts? Why not practice your aim to such an extent that you can blindly hit any target? When something becomes easy it becomes more attractive to do. How do you make ones piano playing experience easier and easier is a good question to meditate upon.

This is how I now approach my own continued development of my piano skills. But isn't it quite common with young people who are beginning their piano journey that they are motivated by specific pieces they think sound awesome and that they want to be able to play? That's how it was for teenage me.

[ranjit]

This is how I now approach my own continued development of my piano skills. But isn't it quite common with young people who are beginning their piano journey that they are motivated by specific pieces they think sound awesome and that they want to be able to play? That's how it was for teenage me.

I think that the shift to wanting to develop your "aim" happens after you accumulate a critical mass of pieces you would like to play.

[lelle]

I think that the shift to wanting to develop your "aim" happens after you accumulate a critical mass of pieces you would like to play.

For me it's almost the opposite. I have now played most of the works that excited me and sent my imagination racing when I was a teen. There's a lot of music still left to be learned, but in terms of my absolute favourite, deeply loved pieces, I have already played them in some capacity. So faced with that I had to figure out what was next. 

[lostinidlewonder]

...isn't it quite common with young people who are beginning their piano journey that they are motivated by specific pieces they think sound awesome and that they want to be able to play?

I think that ALL pianists no matter what level enjoys playing music that excites them and inspires them. It is very important that we are made aware of these pieces and do go ahead and study them, a great source of inspiration to do more work. The thing is that this inspiration and excitement generated from single pieces doesn't always last that long and one can often overstretch and play pieces too difficult for themselves just because they really want to learn it, that can tend to make their progress less efficient (compared to studying many works which are at an appropriate level).

Some people have this enormous list of pieces they really want to learn and they just go ahead learning them head on. I would say the majority who do this never achieve exactly what they want and always fall short. It can take many many years before they come to that realization which can be a real waste of time. In my work I don't come across many people who have an elaborate list of pieces they really want to learn, many of my students just want to get better at playing/studying the piano but at the same time do works which are somewhat interesting. That is a fair enough request, we don't have to do pieces they totally hate even if it would benefit them, there should be some middle ground when choosing pieces, something that your student likes but might not be totally in love with is good enough.

What I try to get all my students interested in also is to develop their learning skills and this is done not always with super exciting works. They can manage to deal with these less exciting works because they can see their skills being effectively used, the experience with these pieces is that they can learn them fast and quickly without the drugery of insane amount of repeats one might find when studying pieces that are too difficult.

This development of ones "aim", their practice craft, needs to be of interest to all pianists. It simply will expand the amount of work you can experience in your lifetime. I have had students come to me who play the piano longer than myself but their work output has been so small over all those years. People literally can go through their entire piano life simply learning certain pieces that excite them and close their vision off to much else. If one gets intereted in their practice craft and the rate they learn their music at they can learn all the pieces they really like and more.

When your practice craft is so sharp you simply read through pieces and they become mastered. If it is necessary then you can go ahead and memorize the work once you are able to play the piece with mastery from the sheets, there is not that much work remaining then. You can make your aim so strong that any piece(at a certain level)  can blindly be played at mastery at first attempt even if you never have heard it or played it before. This certainly is very empowering and something I think is a much greater source for inspiration compared to drawing inspiration from single pieces.

I think that the shift to wanting to develop your "aim" happens after you accumulate a critical mass of pieces you would like to play.

I think the priorities can shift for some people once they have learned a lot of the pieces they are excited about. Some people are soley motivated to study pieces ONLY that excite them, I come across it now and then in my work. This is not so bad and a fine pathway to take but eventually one needs to be interested in much more important issues with their practice craft. This simply is because it expands what music you will be able to experience in your lifetime and everyone should aim to be able to develop in such a way that they will be able to play countless pieces in their lifetime.

If I told my child self that I should stop memorizing all the works I enjoy and start working on my practice craft I would have been laughed at. In fact I don't think I was ready when I was a child to do such things because I enjoyed learning about musical language and playing exciting pieces. I don't think anyone takes the most efficient pathway because ultimately we want to spend time enjoying what we are doing. So let people have that enjoyment and that "honeymoon" period with music, the problem I see though is that some people just like to have lots of affairs and don't work on their music relationship skills! lol

[lelle]

If I told my child self that I should stop memorizing all the works I enjoy and start working on my practice craft I would have been laughed at. In fact I don't think I was ready when I was a child to do such things because I enjoyed learning about musical language and playing exciting pieces. I don't think anyone takes the most efficient pathway because ultimately we want to spend time enjoying what we are doing.

Pretty much. Discipline is great but if it kills your enjoyment of whatever you are doing, what's the point? I think there is a type of discipline that comes from realizing yourself that you WANT to do the thing in a way that brings you more progress that is more valuable than discipline that is forced upon you. If that makes sense. Maybe that's the point you have been making in this thread but I'm a bit sleepy right now.

[lostinidlewonder]

People can learn to want to do something. The problem I find is that people don’t want to learn that and just naturally want to do what they like to do immediately. This certainly limits ones potential. This we all can’t really escape discipline and if you merely work with what you like you pretty much will do very little. Those who naturally like to do a lot of work achieve a lot in life, for most of us though we need to be built up to a point where we learn to enjoy a lot work or at least be excited by its result. So we should learn to enjoy activities which may be difficult and not so enjoyable but the value it returns us encourages us to do it.