scales and arpeggios what book to choose?

[mla]

Hi,
what is "better" The Complete Book of Scales, Chords, Arpeggios (Willard A. Palmer) or
The Comprehensive Scale and Arpeggio Manual (W.Mcfarren).
Thanks.
Michael.

[Goldberg]

The cheaper one. Believe me, it REALLY doesn't matter, as long as it has all the notes for all the scales and all the arpeggios. Most "technical exercises" books (Herz is a good one) will have most, if not all, of the basic scales and arpeggios, and will of course contain a few good exercises to get your fingers ready for such things (basic independence, control and dexterity of the outer fingers, etc), so perhaps you could also consider such a book.

[mla]

Thank you very much for an idea.
Michael.

[rachmaninoff_969]

Take the advise of the great pianists of the 20th century...once you have learned the theory behind the scales, and are comfortable with them...don't practice them anymore as if you were being put to work by a drill sergeant.  They are utterly useless.  If you want to do technical exercises, there is no substitute for Dohnanyi's book of exercises.  Any accomplished pianist will tell you this.  Pick it up and you'll see what I mean.

Happy practicing!

[puma]

I was wondering quite the same thing - when is it time to retire technical excercises?  Should they be retired at all?  Should they always be practiced?  Different teachers have given me vastly different replies from "always" to "when you feel the time is ready" so I'm curious as to what you guys think out there.

[rachmaninoff_969]

Here's the thing.  You either have technique or you don't.  The value of exercises is that they allow you to warm up your fingers so that you do not physically harm yourself when you begin playing pieces.  Soaking your hands in hot water for a few minutes prior to practicing does the exact same thing...try it.  The only technical exercises I can suggest are the Dohnanyi, and this is for a very good reason.  For those who have technique, you will be able to master these fairly quickly.  They just facilitate the occurrence of certain difficult technical passages when they occur in the literature (ie. inner voice trills, odd exchange between fingers, fast passages of strange fingerings ex. 2 & 5 alternating with 3&4 try it on a desk away from the piano!)

Czerny, Brahms, Clementi, and any others you can think of...well don't waste your time.  If you practice every day, your technique will remain at its highest level.  The exercises are for beginners who need to learn the theory behind the scales and figurations that appear so often in compositions.  For example, once you learn a c major scale and learn the theory behind it, you can play any other major scale just as well. 

Again, do what you want, but I warn you that you are wasting your time with the exercises.

[Goldberg]

I would disagree. I do believe that technical exercises eventually become useless and wasteful, but think that sets like Donhanyi and, more particularly, Liszt, are for advanced students who want to solidify their technique. A beginning student who doesn't know how to practice properly doesn't just "have technique" right from the get-go, and so it has to be developed. No, technical exercises are not the only way to go about refining technique, but they can make the process easier because they focus on certain particulars in the aspects of technique, and if practiced correctly, can help to develop remarkable understanding of the technique in the pianist; that's why it must be an advanced student. If the student knows what he's doing with the exercises, he can practice to his advantage; otherwise, he'll just hurt himself by practicing incorrectly.

Technical exercises aren't exactly essential, but I think there's more to them than is fashionable to say in today's world. If one practices them accurately and with a focused mind, he'll definitely receive benefits for his hard work, or more specifically, his technique WILL improve. These exercises are non-musical, yes, but since they are so concentrated and oftentimes more difficult than standard musical passages, they are extraordinary in their ability to build up reflexes, flexibility, and independence, which helps in difficult pieces and even to a high degree in sight-reading.

But, yeah, I do agree that after one has mastered the exercises, more or less, or at least has a "rough idea" of what is to be learned from them, he shouldn't spend his time repeating them.

[rachmaninoff_969]

Thanks for clarifying that Goldberg.  I think I was in a bad mood when I wrote my reply ha ha.  So as to not confuse the person who posted the original question...read Goldberg's response.  But please, when you have reached a more advanced stage, get the Dohnanyi book and make it your God.  I studied his exercises for one month straight, and nothing else, prior to learning Rach's 3rd concerto.  It made the monstrous technical difficulties of the piece much easier (not to say that they were easy!).  Good luck, and happy practicing!

[sznitzeln]

I dont know if I understand rachmaninoff's statement "Either you have technique or you dont" correctly  ...
If I do, then I think this statment is incorrect and rude. Of course some people have easier learning technique than others. Even if someone has problems with his or her technique, it doesnt mean that
they simply "dont have it". Technique is doing the right things with your body, it is a choreography that can be learned. I am not saying anyone can learn to play as fast as Cziffra. And the thing with piano playing is really that technique is far more important than any physical attribute. I believe that anyone "normal" can learn a proper technique if properly guided and if he or she puts an enormous effort into it.

I agree with you that Dohnaniy exercises are good, and also that you already need to have some technique to benefit from them. If you try to force these exercises you will only get tension.
And altogheter, I think that the best way to learn technique is through pieces. Neuhaus says that technique is a by-product of making music. But in order to learn proper technique from a piece one has to tackle pieces that are just above ones ability, and one needs to love these pieces to the extent that one doesnt run out of patience before they are mastered.
This approach is certainly more fun than playing scales or exercises, and at the same time one cultivates the proper attitude towards music: be patient and have as much controll as possible, enjoy the music!

[soulmach]

And altogheter, I think that the best way to learn technique is through pieces. Neuhaus says that technique is a by-product of making music.
This approach is certainly more fun than playing scales or exercises, and at the same time one cultivates the proper attitude towards music: be patient and have as much controll as possible, enjoy the music!

That makes sense for sure.  If we can play a sonata at speed, and generally without strain, then we are most likely playing with decent technique.  I also agree that playing musically is much more fun.  Sonatas are all filled with scales and arps, which will build strength and technique.  I believe non-musical learning books should only be used to learn the theory behind scales and arps.  I don't see where it is necessary to master them.  I tried playing Clementi Gradus, but I couldn't get through the first several lessons.  Not because it was hard (it wasn't hard yet), but I couldn't get through it because it was soo boring    I've learned more technique from sonatas (and reading about technical movements) than anything.  I've seen the same patterns from clementi in mozart and beethoven sonatas.

[kevink]

Take the advise of the great pianists of the 20th century...once you have learned the theory behind the scales, and are comfortable with them...don't practice them anymore as if you were being put to work by a drill sergeant.  They are utterly useless.  If you want to do technical exercises, there is no substitute for Dohnanyi's book of exercises.  Any accomplished pianist will tell you this.  Pick it up and you'll see what I mean.

Happy practicing!

Do the great pianists of the 20th century include Josef and Rhosinna Lhevinne?  Rather accomplished pedagogs, who might disagree with you.

[kevink]

Also, Horowitz advocated practicing scales as many different ways as possible, if I remember right...