Confused with Czerny fingering, parents dont seem to care

[starshrike]

So just some background context, I got a new piano teacher whom my former recommended me to after she moved out-of-state. My parents, given I don't have a say in this, signed me up. This teacher prefers to spend 3 hours doing trial and error than to know how to get it right the first time, and then make progress on the pieces. She recently had me do the Czerny exercises, and with the fingering I didn't understand why it had to be like that(By the way, she sent the file with text message so I don't know what it is called). She says every repeated note has to have a different finger every time, and that just makes no sense to me. For example, there are 4 eighth note G's which have a fingering of 5,4, 3, 2, 5. Why couldn't it just be 5, 5, 5, 5, 5? I had this whole fight with my parent(no musical experience) and they said I have to do this way with no explanations. If you can help me, please leave a post.

Thanks,

Child who is very confused

[apmapmapm]

Repeated notes with different fingerings is an important part of building your technique and finger agility.
Take for example Chopin's first waltz or Liszt's notoriously difficult Tarantella. Those pieces would be impossible to play with the same finger on repeated notes given the fast tempo.
I say practice until you feel more comfortable playing the Czerny study the way it was intended.

[j_tour]

. She says every repeated note has to have a different finger every time, and that just makes no sense to me. For example, there are 4 eighth note G's which have a fingering of 5,4, 3, 2, 5. Why couldn't it just be 5, 5, 5, 5, 5?

You certainly can play it like that on single-note trills.  I think there's some evidence that Scarlatti fils did it thst way, and there's first-hand evidence that some (not all) Hammond organists in jazz or other American music tend to do it this way.

I use a lot of repeated notes when improvising, but I think I normally gravitate to (in the RH) 4-3-2.

It just depends on the context.

Your teacher should have a good explanation for his or her method.

If not, I think you need a new teacher:  he or she should explain why. especially after having beein queried.

[dogperson]

If your parents are not pianists, they won’t be able to answer your questions.  Are you comfortable with asking your teacher when you do not understand?  If you can do that, you will feel a lot less frustrated.  Yes, your teacher should tell you why, but there is nothing wrong with saying ‘I don’t understand why. Could you please explain it?’   There will be Times you don’t even unserstsnd what you are being asked to do; so please ask your teacher ‘please show me’. 

[anacrusis]

So just some background context, I got a new piano teacher whom my former recommended me to after she moved out-of-state. My parents, given I don't have a say in this, signed me up. This teacher prefers to spend 3 hours doing trial and error than to know how to get it right the first time, and then make progress on the pieces. She recently had me do the Czerny exercises, and with the fingering I didn't understand why it had to be like that(By the way, she sent the file with text message so I don't know what it is called). She says every repeated note has to have a different finger every time, and that just makes no sense to me. For example, there are 4 eighth note G's which have a fingering of 5,4, 3, 2, 5. Why couldn't it just be 5, 5, 5, 5, 5? I had this whole fight with my parent(no musical experience) and they said I have to do this way with no explanations. If you can help me, please leave a post.

Thanks,

Child who is very confused

Hello!

Regarding changing fingers on repeated notes, there are two main reasons. The first is, if you are gonna play repeated notes fast, you need to change fingers or it simply won't be possible. To learn how to do it fast, you start out by learning to do it slowly. Here is an example of where you have to change fingers:

The second reason is that if the repeated notes are actually in a tempo where you could repeat them with the same finger, it still tends to feel easier and more natural to shape the notes beautifully if you change fingers, once you get the hang of it.

I don't think it's okay that you are forced to do things with no explanations. When I was a child, I would get angry and almost refuse to do things if it wasn't very clearly, sensibly and in detail explained why I had to do it a certain way if I didn't already want to do it that way.

If there are things you don't feel work well for you in the lessons or there are things you have questions about, does it feel comfortable and safe to bring it up with your teacher?

[starshrike]

Repeated notes with different fingerings is an important part of building your technique and finger agility.
Take for example Chopin's first waltz or Liszt's notoriously difficult Tarantella. Those pieces would be impossible to play with the same finger on repeated notes given the fast tempo.
I say practice until you feel more comfortable playing the Czerny study the way it was intended.

Yea, that's what my teacher wants me to do, but at a high speed(for me at least) of around 120 bpm. I tried with different exercises and I was able to get them up to that tempo, but with some I cannot. In example, the weird fingering I was only able to get up to a tempo of 80 bpm, and I fumbled a bit making mistakes. I'm comfortable playing the Czerny study but its just I can't get the fingering at a tempo of 120 bpm.

[starshrike]

You certainly can play it like that on single-note trills.  I think there's some evidence that Scarlatti fils did it thst way, and there's first-hand evidence that some (not all) Hammond organists in jazz or other American music tend to do it this way.

I use a lot of repeated notes when improvising, but I think I normally gravitate to (in the RH) 4-3-2.

It just depends on the context.

Your teacher should have a good explanation for his or her method.

If not, I think you need a new teacher:  he or she should explain why. especially after having beein queried.

I actually asked my teacher about this, she just said this is what it is and it should be played that way. I'm not one to question her because she is more experienced than me, and I don't really ask her anything unless it is in class. Mainly because it would take a week(we have weekly lessons) to get a response, and at that point I would just ask her in class. My parents have been debating about whether to get a new teacher, but my father is adamant on sticking with this one, because my sibling has no problems(she doesn't ask questions at all, and is on her way to the state regionals).

[starshrike]

If your parents are not pianists, they won’t be able to answer your questions.  Are you comfortable with asking your teacher when you do not understand?  If you can do that, you will feel a lot less frustrated.  Yes, your teacher should tell you why, but there is nothing wrong with saying ‘I don’t understand why. Could you please explain it?’   There will be Times you don’t even unserstsnd what you are being asked to do; so please ask your teacher ‘please show me’.

Yes, my parents are not pianists, they don't really understand all the jargon I say to them, but I am not that comfortable asking my teacher unless it is in class. Even so, I don't get a straight answer, it's usually, "Just do it." I asked her to show me and she took it at 92 bpm and made few mistakes, I don't really understand why and didn't want her to be angry for me asking why(kinda like my father).

[starshrike]

Hello!

Regarding changing fingers on repeated notes, there are two main reasons. The first is, if you are gonna play repeated notes fast, you need to change fingers or it simply won't be possible. To learn how to do it fast, you start out by learning to do it slowly. Here is an example of where you have to change fingers:

The second reason is that if the repeated notes are actually in a tempo where you could repeat them with the same finger, it still tends to feel easier and more natural to shape the notes beautifully if you change fingers, once you get the hang of it.

I don't think it's okay that you are forced to do things with no explanations. When I was a child, I would get angry and almost refuse to do things if it wasn't very clearly, sensibly and in detail explained why I had to do it a certain way if I didn't already want to do it that way.

If there are things you don't feel work well for you in the lessons or there are things you have questions about, does it feel comfortable and safe to bring it up with your teacher?

My situation here is exactly how you described yourself as a child, except the fact that I had no choice to do it that way, I'm not allowed to refuse or my parents just think I'm wasting their money(my sibling just doesn't ask why at all) I only feel comfortable bringing up the question during class, and with asking her on my own time, I rarely get a response by email, taking longer than if I just waited for lessons.

[j_tour]

I'm not one to question her because she is more experienced than me, and I don't really ask her anything unless it is in class.

That's understandable:  but, remember that, as it seems, you're at a young age, so practically everyone is going to be "more experienced," or have more authority.

I recall even as old as in my early twenties being privately impressed by various academicians who had a certain amount of facility and background knowledge, although some of them had not even reached the age of fifty.

About the rest, it does seem that you're in a difficult position, and I don't know how to remedy that.

There's nothing wrong with going ahead and doing as told.  As a number of people have already said, there are many good reasons to play repeated notes/single-note trills in the way your teacher suggests.

The Scarlatti K 141 is exactly an excellent example of where it's a good idea.  Then again, performed on the harpsichord, or as some people would on the Hammond organ, it's definitive that it can be played otherwise.  And, arguable that Scarlatti himself chose to execute with the same finger. 

It is more convenient to know both options, though:  I personally cannot execute repeated-note trills with only one finger, not with reliable results, so I do it the traditional way (although my hands are a bit too broad to comfortably play 54321:  4321 or 432 gets acceptable results for me, though).

Just for fun, I do like Argerich's K 141:  she has these massive forearms, and I have no doubt she could play this with a single finger repeating, but she executes the piece in the traditional way.  It is easier, and you'll have to know that movement, adapted for your own physiology, in order to play pieces like this, or Liszt's HungRhaps 2 and so forth. 

And there's room for variation:  note how Argerich uses the RH thumb in the repeated notes.  I can do it like that, I suppose, but it creates a lot of tension in my hand to compress the hand in that way, even with putting the forearm almost parallel to the keyboard.  So, one can vary and adapt while still getting a similar result. 

It's a bit like "how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!" but there is a reward at the end.

[starshrike]

That's understandable:  but, remember that, as it seems, you're at a young age, so practically everyone is going to be "more experienced," or have more authority.

I recall even as old as in my early twenties being privately impressed by various academicians who had a certain amount of facility and background knowledge, although some of them had not even reached the age of fifty.

About the rest, it does seem that you're in a difficult position, and I don't know how to remedy that.

There's nothing wrong with going ahead and doing as told.  As a number of people have already said, there are many good reasons to play repeated notes/single-note trills in the way your teacher suggests.

The Scarlatti K 141 is exactly an excellent example of where it's a good idea.  Then again, performed on the harpsichord, or as some people would on the Hammond organ, it's definitive that it can be played otherwise.  And, arguable that Scarlatti himself chose to execute with the same finger. 

It is more convenient to know both options, though:  I personally cannot execute repeated-note trills with only one finger, not with reliable results, so I do it the traditional way (although my hands are a bit too broad to comfortably play 54321:  4321 or 432 gets acceptable results for me, though).

Just for fun, I do like Argerich's K 141:  she has these massive forearms, and I have no doubt she could play this with a single finger repeating, but she executes the piece in the traditional way.  It is easier, and you'll have to know that movement, adapted for your own physiology, in order to play pieces like this, or Liszt's HungRhaps 2 and so forth. 

And there's room for variation:  note how Argerich uses the RH thumb in the repeated notes.  I can do it like that, I suppose, but it creates a lot of tension in my hand to compress the hand in that way, even with putting the forearm almost parallel to the keyboard.  So, one can vary and adapt while still getting a similar result. 

It's a bit like "how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!" but there is a reward at the end.

I know most people are more experienced than me, but with my parents they said I have to have a license if I want to challenge the ways. I took a lot of this in consideration and I think it would be best if I go over this with my teacher, and bring up a lot of the points people have said on this forum. I hope she does listen, as maybe the style she teaches is catered to the majority of her students, who seem to work fine with this. Anyways, thanks for taking the time to shed some light on my worries.

[lelle]

Sounds like a good plan! And know that if your teacher reacts negatively to you respectfully bringing up the stuff you have talked about with people here, she is the problem, not you. It's perfectly reasonable to ask questions about stuff.

[ranjit]

I know most people are more experienced than me, but with my parents they said I have to have a license if I want to challenge the ways. I took a lot of this in consideration and I think it would be best if I go over this with my teacher, and bring up a lot of the points people have said on this forum. I hope she does listen, as maybe the style she teaches is catered to the majority of her students, who seem to work fine with this.

About the "license" part -- I don't actually see you challenging the ways here. You are trying to understand why the fingering is as such, which is a perfectly valid question. You are allowed to ask questions during driving lessons as well.

Changing the finger for repeated notes is a bit controversial, and I think it largely used to be a convention in the early 20th century. I think it often produces slightly more legato touch, but not always. I think it is something you should be comfortable doing.

A lot of these exercises are geared towards making your hands feel comfortable with certain movement patterns, and it's a good idea to follow the instructions. Still, it is never a bad thing to ask. Someone will usually have the answer, even if it's not your teacher.

As to whether it's a good idea to continue lessons -- if you're making progress, I don't see a problem. It would probably be better if you could get a teacher better suited to you like your previous teacher seems to have been, but the current teacher could still work with some adjustments.

You say that many other students do not seem to have problems or ask her questions. I think the fact is that a lot of people just don't ask questions. But, I don't think it's good to not ask questions. I am very much the type to ask dozens of questions, and my teacher doesn't discourage it. Of course, you want to make sure that the questions are relevant -- for example, it might waste time to ask your teacher why pianos have 88 keys. But as long as it's on topic, you usually don't stand to lose anything by asking questions.

I'm not one to question her because she is more experienced than me

I don't think that this is a healthy way to think. In college, I had amazing professors, certainly very well recognized in the country and maybe even the world. There wasn't a shred of a doubt that they knew much more than the students.

And yet, students asked questions. The very best students almost invariably asked a lot of questions. Some of those questions would be rather silly, and some of them would be very insightful or turn out to be unsolved problems. Still, people were almost never discouraged from asking questions. Sometimes, there would be a set of questions and answers which went back and forth for a while until the doubt was cleared. There's also a blog in which a famous researcher tells people to ask the silly questions, because those questions patch up fundamental holes in your knowledge, which actually allow you to understand more complex things.

[j_tour]

Changing the finger for repeated notes is a bit controversial, and I think it largely used to be a convention in the early 20th century. I think it often produces slightly more legato touch, but not always. I think it is something you should be comfortable doing.

I'm going to leave your other points, which seem more directly suited to the OP, and are very well articulated.  That's better left to the OP and you.

But this one intrigues me a bit, even if it is a bit going a bit off topic:  I've never actually heard that single-note trills using multiple fingers is controversial.

There is some historical precedent that suggests the "hummingbird"-style repeated "pecking" at the key with one single finger worked well for pre-modern pianos and harpisochords, and anecdotal evidence that some modern jazz organists like Jimmy Smith, Joey D., and others use the single finger technique.  I don't necessarily believe it in the case of Hammond organ, despite having had the chance to sit behind a number of the living and recently deceased masters, as an observer/regular audience member.  Perhaps I just didn't notice. 

It's very quick, after all, and doesn't need much histrionics to execute.

For jazz, and on the Hammond, while it's very common, it is an ad hoc kind of thing done while improvising.  I haven't seen, or done, any specific patterns (as in, I haven't explicitly practiced this technique, but rather I just use it):  it depends on where on is, physically, in relation to the manual.  It could be a 12 trill in RH, or 321 , or 432:  the keys are physically different on organ, with no "lip" where the top of the ivory is on a piano.  They call them "waterfall keys" (at least on the Hammond organ, and probably some other electro-mechanical organs...I don't think this is a standard design for traditional organs):  mostly it's helpful for performing glissandi without cutting one's fingers/hands, but it does make repeating trills marginally easier by letting the fingertips slide off the front edge, without risk of catching the "lip" of the key as one returns from having depressed the key.  So, even an habitual "thumb-avoider" like me can still make a 12 or 123 single note trill in the RH, sort of similar to how one would in the LH at the piano keyboard, doing a "regular" trill. 

It's just a flourish, really.

I think it's without question that on a modern piano, or at least a fascimile thereof, using a few fingers rather than just one is more effective.

Easier, really.  For me, like I said, I have a hard time using the thumb, although it's possible (and I've done it in the past and likely will many more times), but even with just 432 in the RH, I get good speed and keep the fingers just barely above the keyboard.  IOW, it's a compact and efficient technique.

[perfect_pitch]

Your teacher should have a good explanation for his or her method.

If not, I think you need a new teacher:  he or she should explain why. especially after having beein queried.

I also agree. For every time I get a student say 'why do I have to do that', I pretty much have a logical explanation for it as most good piano teachers would. I show them why as well and if I can clearly show the reason it is better than the alternative, then they seem very happy to accept it.

[slurred_beat]

I have heard Czerny is good for developing the technique. Is this true?

[bluenorther]

So just some background context, I got a new piano teacher whom my former recommended me to after she moved out-of-state. My parents, given I don't have a say in this, signed me up. This teacher prefers to spend 3 hours doing trial and error than to know how to get it right the first time, and then make progress on the pieces. She recently had me do the Czerny exercises, and with the fingering I didn't understand why it had to be like that(By the way, she sent the file with text message so I don't know what it is called). She says every repeated note has to have a different finger every time, and that just makes no sense to me. For example, there are 4 eighth note G's which have a fingering of 5,4, 3, 2, 5. Why couldn't it just be 5, 5, 5, 5, 5? I had this whole fight with my parent(no musical experience) and they said I have to do this way with no explanations. If you can help me, please leave a post.

Thanks,

Child who is very confused

I ran into the same issue recently.  I bet your piece is from Czery's Opus 599, Practical Method for Beginners on the Pianoforte. If your teacher is using the fingerings from the usual Shirmer's Library, they are by Buonamici a now dead Italian composer. The fingers are controversial. There is another edition with fingerings that make sense for a beginner and is the one you want to use (or at least show your piano teacher that a different fingering is also correct). It is edited by Adolf Ruthardt (a now dead German composer). Both of these editions for Op. 599 can be downloaded for free as pdf from imslp.org. 

A world class pianist and teacher (Ilga Pitkevica) recently wrote a blog and also a set of video tutorials for Op. 599 and basically says the fingerings that your teacher recommends are nonsense and recommends the Ruthardt fingerings that you would rather use. Google { Ilga Pitkevica Czerny Exercises Practicing the Piano } she covers this in the first lecture, tho you might have to be subscribed to view it.

Good luck. Your question is spot on and I agree as a beginner you should use the simpler fingerings.

[lostinidlewonder]

Multiple repeated note technique (more than 2 notes) really in my opinion is not technique that is relevant in the earlier/mid levels. You can go through your entire music life and never have to bother about repeated note technique since not that much music uses it. I feel that it is often taught far too early. It is just not a skill that one comes across enough to encourage it be learned early on.

If you are asking specific questions you really should post the actual sheet music so people understand the context of the fingering completely and answers can be more direct.

[ranjit]

I have also found it weird how much people insist on certain things like playing legato thirds 13,24,35 or repeated notes with 321, etc. in the initial stages. When you get to actual pieces which utilize those, a lot of that goes by the window, for example because 13,24,35 for thirds just isn't fast enough. They are fun to play, don't get me wrong, but I can't think of a lot of pieces in the beginner levels which use those techniques. The simplest piece I can think of which actually needs repeated notes is Grand Valse Brilliante, and while it's not super difficult, I believe it is a diploma level piece by ABRSM standards.

[lostinidlewonder]

I have also found it weird how much people insist on certain things like playing legato thirds 13,24,35 or repeated notes with 321, etc. in the initial stages.

I think this fingering combination however has a lot of relevance, you will often come across them in pieces, perhaps not exactly in the guise of third scale runs. Certainly you wouldn't labor on playing them ultra fast in all sorts of positions and fingering combinations in or if at all since you are not going to come across much works which require lightning fast and long third passages.

When you get to actual pieces which utilize those, a lot of that goes by the window, for example because 13,24,35 for thirds just isn't fast enough. They are fun to play, don't get me wrong, but I can't think of a lot of pieces in the beginner levels which use those techniques.

For example if the LH plays a common chord progression CEG-DFG (531)(421) being able to play 53, 42 thirds will be very handy. There are some interesting pieces I've used to introduce third type playing in pieces, they don't have to be etude like with rapid third scales and madness, some other styles can introduce the idea like "A Spy Story by Christopher Norton" which I've used a number of times.